To all Christian Members: Have you studied the Koran and the teachings of Islam?

[sojeru]

hi hank hi lotus petal

well, for the moment , looking at all sides is only recieved by those who want to see the truth of Islam and Qur'an

There have been moslems that have looked at every side and are speechless in properly defending their belief when they take a good and time consuming study at all the evidences for and against the belief.


Many become christians- however the downside is that they leave behind many of the concepts they have to properly recieve the full truth of bible.

Reason i say this is because Islam has many judaic concepts- and without those concepts- one can be on a very far OFF-end though believing in bible. However some do retain those concepts and hold to a leading to the right path.

But it is the same in all sides.

we jews do not care to look at the new testament and carefully study all sides- even though, yes it is our Bible- we just take the rabbis word for it and stand incorrect on many things- even the beginning of our new year in what we call Rosh ha'shannah is supposed to be "Yom Teruah", and our Rosh ha'shannah (head of the year{new year}) is supposed to be Peysach(passover), but i wont get into it with the rabbis until i have extensive study in this.

Christians drop and leave everything that is considered jewish making their saviour a roman xristos instead of the hebrew mashiach(messiah) and Moshiyah(savior) of the world. thus misunderstanding the writtings of the besurat haG'ula (goodnews of redemption) of the brit chadashah
(new covenant)
they misunderstand Paul. And by putting Rav Paulos in the forhead- they twist ,unknowingly,the words of Messiah and then everyone else- even misunderstanding and twisting Scripture (OT)- Petros SHIMON KEPHAS said it best in his epistle.
so in this- they ardently fight against anything jewish- but the truth of messiah never begum this way- this fighting has a history of 1600 somewhat years because of the apostacy that enterd and "won" over the Assembly and congregation of HaShem Mashiach YHshWH.

and moslems, already spoken above.

so all sides are stuck in a traditional confusion and bounding.
One says the sky is white
one says the sky is blue
one says the sky is red.

yet all are right and all are wrong.
why? they are missing something in its explanation of truth. And, when they get into the details of what they believe they either added fallacies or took truths away from what was.

the sky is actually all of these colors and more because of the atmosphere and time and temperature that takes toll on the earths atmosphere. however the heavens (sky) outside of our plain eye inside the earth from what we see in books and pictures is a peircing black with luminaries placed and scattered abroad.
it can get deeper- but this is in its simple form- a parable of the truth.

shalom u'bracha

 

[sojeru]

hi feral and saad,

saad, if you will follow your religion take all that is said in its book to be full and through in the authority you give the entire belief.

this is what Qur'an says

And those (wives) you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. (Qur'an 4:34, Arberry)

Some translations of the Qur'an have tried to suggest that the word of "beat" means to hit softly. However the same Arabic word is used in 8:12 which reads:

When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. (Qur'an 8:12, Pickthall)

Here are some hadiths about wife beating.

Umar reported the Prophet as saying, "A man will not be asked about why he beat his wife." (Mishkat Al-Masabih, p. 693: Abu Dawud and Ibn Majah)

... Umar then came forward, and when he had asked and had been granted permission he found the Prophet sitting sad and silent with his wives around him. He told that he decided to say something which would make the Prophet laugh, so he said, "Messenger of God, I wish you had seen the daughter of Kharija when she asked me for extra money and I got up and slapped her on the neck." God's messenger laughed and said, "They are around me as you see asking for extra money." Abu Bakr then got up, went to A'isha and slapped her on the neck, and Umar did the same to Hafsa ... (Mishkat Al-Masabih, p. 690: Muslim)

Iyas b. Abdullah reported God's messenger as saying, "Do not beat God's handmaidens" but when Umar came to God's messenger and said, "The women have become emboldened towards their husbands", he gave licence to beat them. Then many women went round God's messenger's family complaining of their husbands. Those are not the best among you. (Mishkat Al-Masabih, p. 692: Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah, and Darimi)

Muhammad beat his wives.

... He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was 'A'isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi'. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O 'A'isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly? ... (Sahih Muslim, book 4, hadith 2127)

now if these were only tradition, these traditions were carried down for a very long period of time and accepted by moslems- even in qur'an and aHadith by their prophet himself, he himself condoned wife beating.

I do believe that islam has no need for it- but it does indeed very well condone it and does not speak against it as if it was only a tradition that was not to be condoned any longer.

However, outside of this, I know many arab moslems who are very loving people- i wish i could be around these arabs all the time and continually hug them and kiss them. However i do know of a few arab moslems that are harsh- and very unwelcomely people however only for their own people.

I know that the governments do afflict disgrace upon the arab women of their countries from the most strict to the most liberal of countries.
I have witnessed this from arab moslems friends and their testimonies.
I fear for a friend of mine.

I also feared for another friend of mine who was being stalked by a jordinian moslem- in which in front of her face and on the phone - he claimed himself to be one of the most observant- she spent her days in fear during this period of time- and she couldnt find faith to go to her parents with this entire ordeal because she was sure they would just allow the man to do what he wanted to do. she on the other hand is a very loving arab with great heart for her family and those she love.

so this is a great part of its culture- to treat women lower than a man.
and the Qur'an itself condones it


shalom u'bracha

 

[tulc]

sojeru! How are you today? Just stopped to say "Hi"
Have a great day!
tulc

 

[ByGrace]

This may come across as wrong but since finding out that the koran claims Jesus to be nothing more then a prophet I have deemed it heretical and detrimental to the seeking Christian. I therefore treat it the same as I do any other book like it i.e. book of mormon, buddhist books, eastern philosophy manuels etc. I destroy it on sight.

 

[sojeru]

hi tulc, im fine thanks.
blessings to you- thanks for dropping by


shalom u'bracha

 

[vajradhara]

This may come across as wrong but since finding out that the koran claims Jesus to be nothing more then a prophet I have deemed it heretical and detrimental to the seeking Christian. I therefore treat it the same as I do any other book like it i.e. book of mormon, buddhist books, eastern philosophy manuels etc. I destroy it on sight.

please don't pay a visit to my public library... my tax dollars and those of the other tax payers are used to place books therein that you would destroy. please only destroy those things which are yours... the rest of us do not appreciate it when someone else destroys our stuff.

 

[EvolvEarth]

This may come across as wrong but since finding out that the koran claims Jesus to be nothing more then a prophet I have deemed it heretical and detrimental to the seeking Christian. I therefore treat it the same as I do any other book like it i.e. book of mormon, buddhist books, eastern philosophy manuels etc. I destroy it on sight.

Yeah, instead of learning from other people and religions, destroy what contradicts are unproved beliefs!

Ignorance is the best medicine for suffering from skepticism.

 

[Soaring Falcon]

Im new to this board, and although I belive in God and am from a Christian background i am intrested in all beliefs because I think people's beliefs should be respected and learned from.


I have a copy of the Quran and I really like it, I dont think it is bad, I think islam is the fastest growing faith in the World, I dont think people around the world would be converting to something which is evil, there has to be something about it that people love it and want to embrace it.


But I think Christianity and Islam are VERY similar, and we should be working together to make people love God, love honour, love dignity.


Instead we are fighting, and human beings are becoeming apathetic and belive in nothing. and i think thats a tragedy.

 

[Soaring Falcon]

Oh yeah one final thing, I learned of a statistic that out of all converts to islam 80% are women for every 2 men that convert to islam 8 women do. I dont think these women are stupid and want to convert to something that see's them as lower, and from what I have seen of Islam i dont belive it gives men more rights, some of the rights are heavily in favour of women.

We should think about these things.

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

Ahhh SF,

The newage religion of global tolerance. I dont buy into that at all!

As a Christian you know you are to be as Christ is himself and there are many things He is not tolerant of.

This spin you have posted, I believe, is worldly and not based on the actual word. You most likely should re-evaluate those thoughts if you are claiming Christianity as your foundation.

 

[Soaring Falcon]

I see God as my foundation and like I said m from a christian background, and i enjoy religions and im just tired of lies ESPECIALLY about other people's beliefs.

I dont think thats right, I dont think we should try to convert people, let them be what they want to be, SURE you can talk to them about your religion and let them talkt to you about theirs.

There is this mature student in one of my classes, she used to be an athest and later became a Muslim, and began wearing the muslim scarf. through discussion with her i learnt islam gives alot of rights to women. I just dont like people slandering someone elses beliefs. I wouldnt want them to do it to mine.

 

[RaptureTicketHolder]

I see alot of different things within your posts that indeed leave me concerned, but I can tell you are rather young, which is in your favor.

It sounds like you really enjoy people in general. Id bet with just a bit more study into that Christian backround of yours, it will become forground for you. Why leave it in the backround when surrounded by diversity and worldly tolerance?

Here are a couple of things worth thinking over, fellow Christian:

Consider Matthew 13 as a mirror to the situations you find yourself in umongst diversity and tolerance:

What happens when you adhere to diversity and tolerance?

18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

Where is your seed and what is it producing?

Diversity and tolerance? Is that what Christ just said? I think not.

Its always interesting to me when I see a Christian claim the proper backround, but then have such an ill placed seed in saying to each his own, Ill mind my own....

Actually, slander against Christianity is not all that horrible as one would imagine:

Consider:

2 Corinthians 12
9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

In speaking out for Christianity truth is heard, yet considered slander by many who do not hear properly. They just might feel that slander is cause for return treatment, like in kind. YET, this is not an eye for an eye senerio! Rather, you really do need to look at this as a spiritual life and death situation.

Is not your classmates spiritual life worth the sake of diversity and tolerance?

Find out what your Christian backround really means! You could really bless someone in the long run with a seed worthy of true growth!

 

[radorth]

Well said RTH. Well said indeed.

Soaring Falcon,

Would that things were so simple.

You're statement "I'm from a Christian background" doesn't tell me anything really. So were Hitler and Stalin. No offense intended- but you get the point. I feel a bit patronized by your statement because it sounds like you are saying "Hey, I'm a Christian too. I know all about it, but I'm more open minded than you are."

Jesus was quite esplicit about the "narrow gate" and where to find it. Since you apparently disagree and think "Broad is the way which leads to eternal life" perhaps you should stop pretending you agree with him. He was either the savior of the world, a liar, or a grade A nutball. Perhaps you aren't well studied in the Bible, but when you are, you must choose one of the above in the name of intellectual honesty.

have a copy of the Quran and I really like it, I dont think it is bad,

It fairly screams "I wanna be a big-time prophet like Jesus" in my ears. Judging from the shameless plagerism of the OT, patronization of Christ, the timing of his revelations, Muhammed's own admission that he first thought he was hearing from devils, and some rather transparent attempts to negate the atonement, I'd call it far more dangerous to the truth than The Communist Manifesto.

I think islam is the fastest growing faith in the World, I dont think people around the world would be converting to something which is evil,

Huh? They've been doing it for thousands of years, for all kinds of reasons. Try to stay awake in history class man! Most people follow the crowd everywhere it goes. I realize that some people are honestly looking for answers and think they have found it in Islam, but where people are truly free to choose and study, there is no rush toward Islam.

there has to be something about it that people love it and want to embrace it.

What would that be? Danged if I can tell. Did Muhammed atone for my sins and yours better than Christ? Does he impute more righteousness to me? Did he live up to his own teachings better than Jesus? Did Jesus have enemies killed as Muhammed did? Did Jesus rob caravans?

OK he knocked off a lazy fig tree and some pigs, but only to make a point. (Jews aren't supposed to be raising pigs anyway. Heh heh).

I'm afraid, as John Quincy Adams put it, you have compared "a farthing candle and the sun!" my friend.

Rad

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

Im new to this board, and although I belive in God and am from a Christian background i am intrested in all beliefs because I think people's beliefs should be respected and learned from.


I have a copy of the Quran and I really like it, I dont think it is bad, I think islam is the fastest growing faith in the World, I dont think people around the world would be converting to something which is evil, there has to be something about it that people love it and want to embrace it.


But I think Christianity and Islam are VERY similar, and we should be working together to make people love God, love honour, love dignity.


Instead we are fighting, and human beings are becoeming apathetic and belive in nothing. and i think thats a tragedy.

Oh yeah one final thing, I learned of a statistic that out of all converts to islam 80% are women for every 2 men that convert to islam 8 women do. I dont think these women are stupid and want to convert to something that see's them as lower, and from what I have seen of Islam i dont belive it gives men more rights, some of the rights are heavily in favour of women.

We should think about these things.

Hi SF,

I agree that people who may have different beliefs to our own should be respected. It would be wrong to slander or discriminate against a person because of their religious beliefs.

But, I don't think it's wrong to research into differing beliefs or to unbiasely critically evaluate as I would hope we do with our own faith. I did not feel that Christians here have 'lied' about Islam but have expressed their opinions on it after looking into it.

We also have copies of the Quran in our house. We also have the full volume of the Hadeeths, volumes of the Sha'riah, books on how to perform the water cleansing before prayer, women's rights in islam, children's rights in Islam, rights in marriage etc....

One of the things I have big problems with does in fact come from women's rights. To list a couple that immediately springs to mind - there is a Hadeeth that says that the Prophet had told one of his followers that the majority of people occupying hell will be women. I was discussing this with my husband the other night and admitted that I did not understand the maths. I mean, from Adam to judgement day, of all the paediphiles, murderers, thieves, non believers in God,.....etc hell will still consist of women in the majority? These women will be 'ungrateful gossipers'. So what does that say to you? For me, that said a piece of literature - save for materialistic benefits such as ownership of land rights and men not staring at me lustfully - is saying that me (a woman) will probably end up in hell. Compare that with Gal 3:28.

There is another hadeeth which says that male martyrs - even if they are married will be able to have 70+ females in heaven, including their wife. But the wife will only have her one husband. There are things such as when looking for eye-witnesses in court a man's word is worth two women's. So basically what I'm saying is that the grass may not always be greener on the other side when one reads into it.

I don't think that the women who convert to Islam are stupid - but I would argue that beforehand they may not have had access to the full (both pros and cons) information about the religion. My husband also argues that sometimes people receive a 'sugar-coated' version of his religion to where when reality hits it's too late and they become apostates. I have also seen this within my own faith - people are offered a 'sales pitch' and accept something without fully looking into it. i acknowledge that this is not just limited to one faith or set of beliefs.

I apologise for the very long post - I still have other areas to cover with what you'd said. But let me try to summarise with this. I think the best thing you can do when reading into Islam is to cross-reference it with what they profess came before them - Judaism and Christianity or rather as they say the Torah and the Injeel. I am currently doing that as well as critically looking into my own faith.

Yes, there will be similarities but there will also be some disturbing differences too especially when you cross reference the accounts concerning the End Times (thanks Sojeru - your posts pricked my curiosity about this and I was amazed at what I have so far found out).

I'd better go now and check on the washing

God bless

 

[lunachick]

What happens when you adhere to diversity and tolerance?

Ummm...if everyone did it, then you'd have a happy, healthy, peaceful world?

Diversity and tolerance? Is that what Christ just said? I think not.

Its always interesting to me when I see a Christian claim the proper backround, but then have such an ill placed seed in saying to each his own, Ill mind my own....

So, how do you reconcile the Christian support and tolerance of the Jewish State of Israel, when the Jewish faith rejects Christ as the son of God?

 

[radorth]

Ummm...if everyone did it, then you'd have a happy, healthy, peaceful world?

Ah and there's the crux.

So then we should have tolerated Hitler and Stalin. Luther should have tolerated the church as it was. Reagan should have been more tolerant of the Communist system. We should tolerate Chinese oppression and the North Koreans building nuclear bombs.

I'm not here to judge them so much as point out the complexities of life. I'm actually a pacifist who thinks Operation "Iraqi Freedom" is a waste of time and resources. I hold no illusions about solving every problem with force. I have even questioned whether the Revolutionary War was essential to get us where we wanted to go. In any case, the irony in this world is that "tolerance" has lead to all sorts of evildoings.

We will have peace and harmony when evil is done away with, not before. People do not wish to face history I'm afraid, but prefer instead to live some sort of "I'm OK, you're OK" fantasyland.

Rad

 

[lunachick]

So then we should have tolerated Hitler and Stalin. Luther should have tolerated the church as it was. Reagan should have been more tolerant of the Communist system. We should tolerate Chinese oppression and the North Koreans building nuclear bombs.

Not at all. I was being somewhat facetious in a utopian kinda way.

The thing is Hitler and Stalin were extremely intolerant people. That made them very dangerous. That made them part of the problems of the world, not part of the solutions.

Generally speaking, I see intolerant people as being rather dangerous people - it is all just a question of degree. That said, however, I myself am rather intolerant of those who willfully pollute and destroy natural ecosystems; and those who use slave labour to get rich.


But what about my other question - the more serious one - the one about Israel?

 

[Soaring Falcon]

I just wanted to say im 23 so yes im young but im going to study for my Masters in International Law and Global Diplomacy soon and have just finished my Degree in International Relations and Politics.


So the way I see it is I have a better grasp of international relations and current and past world affairs then most people.


Im from the "Church of England Anglican background" my christian teachings go as far as knowing im from that background my parentds or family arent religious and the only reason i ever went to church was to go to weddings, I belive in God. But im not too religious.

Your right i belive in a Humanist approach i think human beings have the abilty to do great good or tremendous evil, and i belive people working together to understand each other will eliviate hatred and allow us to understand each other.

So basically thats my background.

 

[Soaring Falcon]

But about religion, I have seen and read of women's rights in islam and have interacted with good muslims who have taught me about their religion in religious discussions,

They are not saying the cultural way in which countries like saudi or afghanistan work is ISLAMIC, THEY HAVE PROVIDED NUMEROUS ARTICLES AND EVIDENCE TO TEACH ME THAT many many THINGS THAT occur in places like afghanistan have NOTHING to do with islam.

Im not stupid, i have read numerous articles, and sites and the quran itself.



There are things about christianity and womens rights that made me throw my hands in the air in dispair.

But I wouldnt want them thrown in my face especially since i cant defend them.



SOME of the MOST loving couples i have seen are muslim ones, where the husband dosent flirt or look around, where dress is modest and noble and at times the Husband has alot of pressure because of all the obligations upon him its often a two way thing



What I know about christianity is that we should accuse others if we arent prepared to be accused ourselves, I have seen this happen where a christian attacked a muslim verbally about womens rights in islam, The Muslim simply got out her Quran and showed the verses that were supposed to be bad and went through them explaining them, Then she came out with alot of accusations against christianity and the bible many of which were outrageous wo modern women.


Now what did that achive except make people, defensive, and angry.



EVEN though this is a christian board, i think people are far far to derogatory.

If a knowledgable muslim posted things in the bible or christian scripture about women, i think we wouldnt be happy.

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

Im not stupid, I have read numerous articles, and sites and the quran itself.

Hi SF,

Then all I would suggest is that you look into your parent's faith with the same vigilance and respect. And cross reference what you have read with what is written in the Quran & its Hadeeths (I trust that those you have spoken with have mentioned that the one does not go without the other).

This method of research worked for me. I was borderline converting to Islam until I did this and that was when the questions began to rush in about whether in fact it was the last and final testament of God.

Also talk with practicing Christians as you have done with the Muslimahs you know. As it is written you'll know one by their fruits (see Gal 5:22&23). If you have any questions at all please feel free to pm me

God bless