Historicity of the change of the Sabbath Commandment

BobRyan said:

ceremonial sacrifices were added after the Gen 2:2-3 Sabbath was "made for mankind" (Mark 2:27) and so it was only AFTER the Gen 3 fall of mankind that the animal sacrifices are put in place - see Gen 4.

Prior to that the Sabbath was kept without any animal sacrifices.

Heb 10 -- all animal sacrifices end at the cross.

Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth - "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to bow down"

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SabbathBlessings' assertion was that God never issued a commandment that man cannot keep. As I responded, that is patently false simply because there are innumerable commandments in the Bible which nobody has been able to obey since the Temple was sacked by the Roman emperor Titus in A. D. 70.

To be certain, there have been various alternatives to these commandments which have been promoted and accepted. Many Jews sincerely believe that various pious works substitute for blood sacrifices.

BobRyan said:

We do not write the Ten Commandments - we obey them.

God is the one that said He rested and that He made the Sabbath binding on all mankind at the Gen 2:2-3 creation event.

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Are not the words spoken to Abraham just as important regarding circumcision? it too is an everlasting covenant. So if we can dismiss away the Abrahamic covenant and call it spiritual (when the instructions were explicit in the flesh) then why can't we understand the Sinaitic covenant the same way? the ten commandments are not given to us and although they continue to point to spiritual revelation we are not under it's physical law. we are under Christ's law.

looking at creation God did not rest on the 7th day, he "sabbathed" (verb) on the 7th day. Sabbath can be rest but it also means to cease. God ceases his work because he is finished. In this sense he rested from his work not out of obligation or need but because the work was accomplished and the two concepts are inseparable. it says this right in the text Gen 2:2 "By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work." the act of sabbath here is the result of completed work and God would not sabbath if the work was not complete. the value of the sabbath on the 7th day needs to include not just ceased work but completed work an act we cannot accomplish ourselves. Thus the 4th commandment can never be fulfilled through our own power. we may rest as hard as we wish, but we still cannot keep the sabbath, because we cannot accomplish the work. Christ of course can (and did), and by our luck he is lord of the Sabbath by his own admission so he has authority over the sabbath.

BobRyan said:

The New Covenant of Heb 8 comes from Jer 31:31-34 where we find the commandments of God as known in the OT - written on the heart.

BOTH covenants have "do not take God's name in vain" -- BOTH have the TEN - - BOTH have Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself".

The OLD Covenant is of the form "obey and live" as see was the case for mankind in Gen 2.

But after the fall of man -- only the NEW Covenant serves as the way to eternal life - starting with the fall of Adam and ever since,
Even NT writers affirm this

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there are universal aspects of the law that even if unwritten, stand true. Being a servant of God demands not to take his name in vain, or have other gods, or graven images. This is innate through a monotheistic relationship and although just as valuable today as it ever was has less meaning because polythesim is far less practiced today or a temptation. Monotheistic practices needed to be emphasized at the time of Moses because they were real problems people dealt with. The 10 commandments acted as a polemic of its time to emphasize monotheistic practices and broad pillars of civil order that were unpopular values of surrounding cultures. The 4th commandment however, cannot be universally understood as it needs to be told to understand it. Rest is needed and routine rest is important but the 4th commandment is specific, and its detail cannot be naturally deduced simply from our physical need for rest. A 7-day cycle is not a natural cycle; you could argue a lunar cycle could be and somehow dividedd into 4 but it would become out of sync with the requirement of the law as a 7 day cycle does not align to a lunar cycle. There is no natural 7-day cycle so in order to understand a requirement to rest on the 7th day, someone needs to tell us why, otherwise the day you rest or how many days you wait is an arbitrary detail.

The babalonians also venerated the 7th day and even had a type of ceasing (more like a hiding), they infact are credited with the 7 day week, calling each day after the 7 known celestial objects of it's day (the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn) the greeks and romans continued this practice and to this day the days of the week are still named after these vernerated celestial objects from Babylon. We can dismiss these values today as silly but in its day had a strong influence, and Israel needed a redeemed system that was stripped of paganism and emphasized monotheistic practices. This is the need of the 10 commandment and 4th commandment is a part of this, turning a day from pagan practices to monotheistic. Those demands are not the same today, and those commandments are not given to us nor were they re-etched into stone for us to continue to follow but they do have deeper meaings that points to Christ. We can critically think past these circumstances and worship God in spirit and truth not just because a day of the week tells us so.

You can reject every word here, yet still these commandments are absent in the NT as instruction but the one that is clear and is consistently taught through out the NT and even show it fulfulls all the law and the prophets is what is affectionatly called "Christ's law" that is often reduced to "love you neighbour as yourself"

DamianWarS said:

Are not the words spoken to Abraham just as important regarding circumcision? it too is an everlasting covenant. So if we can dismiss away the Abrahamic covenant and call it spiritual (when the instructions were explicit in the flesh) then why can't we understand the Sinaitic covenant the same way? the ten commandments are not given to us and although they continue to point to spiritual revelation we are not under it's physical law. we are under Christ's law.

looking at creation God did not rest on the 7th day, he "sabbathed" (verb) on the 7th day. Sabbath can be rest but it also means to cease. God ceases his work because he is finished. In this sense he rested from his work not out of obligation or need but because the work was accomplished and the two concepts are inseparable. it says this right in the text Gen 2:2 "By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work." the act of sabbath here is the result of completed work and God would not sabbath if the work was not complete. the value of the sabbath on the 7th day needs to include not just ceased work but completed work an act we cannot accomplish ourselves. Thus the 4th commandment can never be fulfilled through our own power. we may rest as hard as we wish, and we still cannot keep the sabbath, because we cannot accomplish the work. Christ of course, and by our luck he is lord of the Sabbath but his own admission so he has authority over the sabbath.


there are universal aspects of the law that even if unwritten, stand true. Being a servant of God demands not to take his name in vain, or have other gods, or graven images. This is innate through a monotheistic relationship and although just as valuable today as it ever was has less meaning because polythesim is far less practices today. Monotheistic practices needed to be emphasized at the time of Moses and the 10 commandments acted as a polemic of its time to emphasises monotheistic practices and broad pillars or civil that were very much unpopular values of surrounding cultures.

The babalonians also venerated the 7th day and even had a type of ceasing (more like a hiding), they infact are credited with the 7 day week, calling each day after the 7 known celestial objects of it's day (the Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn) the greeks and romans continued this practice and to this day the days of the week are still named after these vernerated celestial objects from Babylon. We can dismiss these values today as silly but in its day had a strong influence, and Israel needed a redeemed system that was stripped of paganism and emphasized monotheistic practices. This is the need of the 10 commandment and 4th commandment is a part of this, turning a day from pagan practices to monotheistic. Those demands are not the same today, and those commandments are not given to us nor were they re-etched into stone for us to continue to follow but they do have deeper meaings that points to Christ. We can critically think past these circumstances and worship God in spirit and truth not just because a day of the week tells us so.

You can reject every word here, yet still these commandments are absent in the NT as instruction but the one that is clear and is consistently taught through out the NT and even show it fulfulls all the law and the prophets is what is affectionatly called "Christ's law" that is often reduced to "love you neighbour as yourself"

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Thank you. I am still working on loving my neighbor as myself. When I have mastered that commandment I will turn my attention to the others.

bbbbbbb said:

Which goes back to my earlier post in which I suggested that some folks consider the New Covenant merely to be a regurgitation of the Old Covenant and not really NEW in any viable sense of the word.

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I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: For The just shall live by faith. And this faith establishes the Law and speaks on this wise, say not in your heart who shall ascend up into heaven, that is bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. But what sayeth it? The word is nigh thee. In thy mouth and in thy heart. THAT IS the word of faith in which we preach. As God had said, A new covenant I will make with you. I will put my Laws in your hearts and in your minds I will write them. I will give unto to you a new spirit. For it is I who works in you both to will and do my good pleasure.


Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

HIM said:

I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: For The just shall live by faith. And this faith establishes the Law and speaks on this wise, say not in your heart who shall ascend up into heaven, that is bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. But what sayeth it? The word is nigh thee. In thy mouth and in thy heart. THAT IS the word of faith in which we preach. As God had said, A new covenant I will make with you. I will put my Laws in your hearts and in your minds I will write them. I will give unto to you a new spirit. For it is I who works in you both to will and do my good pleasure.


Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

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I am gratified to know that we, along with Paul, agree on justification by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

bbbbbbb said:

I am gratified to know that we, along with Paul, agree on justification by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

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I don’t see where this isn’t true for all here posting on this thread, praise God!

HIM said:

I don’t see where this isn’t true for all here posting on this thread, praise God!

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There are many professing Christians who hold to a synergistic view in which God does His part in salvation and we are required to do our part.

bbbbbbb said:

There are many professing Christians who hold to a synergistic view in which God does His part in salvation and we are required to do our part.

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I don’t believe there is one poster here posting here that does not agree with this quote

HIM said:

I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: For The just shall live by faith. And this faith establishes the Law and speaks on this wise, say not in your heart who shall ascend up into heaven, that is bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. But what sayeth it? The word is nigh thee. In thy mouth and in thy heart. THAT IS the word of faith in which we preach. As God had said, A new covenant I will make with you. I will put my Laws in your hearts and in your minds I will write them. I will give unto to you a new spirit. For it is I who works in you both to will and do my good pleasure.


Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down [from above]
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, [even] in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

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HIM said:

I don’t believe there is one poster here posting here that does not agree with this quote

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Probably not, but you will probably discover a variety of understandings as to what it actually means.

Aaron112 said:

As if is that like agreeing to obey the traffic laws, and start with stopping at stop signs and <after mastering> that one to then start stopping at red lights ?!

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Perhaps you might want to present that to Paul who said that love is the fulfillment of the law (Romans 13:8) or Jesus who defined the Law for us as only two commandments - Love God and love your neighbor.

Curiously, I find myself in obedience to the ten commandments as the direct effect of my feeble attempt to love my neighbor as myself. I have not murdered anyone, nor coveted anything belonging to my neighbor, nor committed adultery, etc. To take your analogy, one might say, that the law requires me to pay my property taxes, leaving me free to not worry about income taxes, sales taxes, and the host of other taxes imposed by the government. However, if, as scripture says, to render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, then obedience to all government laws is required. Moreover, this is merely a small subset of loving my neighbor. Like it or not, government in all of its manifestations is but one type of my neighbor. My neighbor also includes all of the social pariahs that righteous folks detest - murderers, adulterers, prostitutes, tax collectors, rapists, sexual predators, homosexuals, transgender folks, etc., etc., etc.

Aaron112 said:

Obey The Creator In All Things Every Day, do not rely on your own understanding.

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Much easier said than done.

bbbbbbb said:

Jesus who defined the Law for us as only two commandments - Love God and love your neighbor.

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That is not true. He said all the law and prophets HANG on two. Big difference from what you said above.

HIM said:

That is not true. He said all the law and prophets HANG on two. Big difference from what you said above.

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Luke 10:25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.” 29 But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?

30 Jesus replied and said, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion, 34 and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.’ 36 Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers’ hands?” 37 And he said, “The one who showed mercy toward him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do the same.”

Please notice, there is not the slightest hint about keeping any other commandments.

bbbbbbb said:

Luke 10:25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.” 29 But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?

30 Jesus replied and said, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion, 34 and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.’ 36 Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers’ hands?” 37 And he said, “The one who showed mercy toward him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do the same.”

Please notice, there is not the slightest hint about keeping any other commandments.

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Different rules for this guy I guess

Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is], God.
Luke 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Luke 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Luke 18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
Luke 18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Luke 18:26 And they that heard [it] said, Who then can be saved?
Luke 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

HIM said:

Different rules for this guy I guess

Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is], God.
Luke 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Luke 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Luke 18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
Luke 18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Luke 18:26 And they that heard [it] said, Who then can be saved?
Luke 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

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It looks like Jesus took away any hope for eternal life for both of them and, if it applies to others, they are also lost.