Is God a do as I say not as I do God?

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-07-13T08:48:50-0500

fhansen said:
He’d then be solely to blame for every atrocious act anyway

Your position of God obviously needs excuses

A Superior God is in no need of excuses IF He is able to overcome all things, which obviously would be the case

Nothing, no thing in creation can be superior to the Creator

Kind of elemental theology

Jeff Saunders · 2025-07-13T09:37:39-0500

Fervent said:
This is quite the strawman. The issue isn't God's lack of wisdom, or strength, or any other attribute. It's the depth of the wickedness of some men's hearts, such that the more they know of God the more their enmity increases. It's one thing to hope for the salvation of all men, and to preach that God desires all men to be saved. It's another thing entirely to teach it. Particularly when that teaching involves twisting passages that make clear statements about the eternality of the wicked's punishment, and the finality of the second death. Do you think God allowed the authors of the Bible to waste ink talking about something that He has ensured could not possibly happen?

Your assumption is different than mine, you assume that man's will can thwart Gods will, you are lifting man above God, you think that a man has ability to outlast God.
" It's the depth of the wickedness of some men's hearts, such that the more they know of God the more their enmity increases " That is the straw man, if someone has ever had a encounter with the living God/Jesus/Spirit, once you experience his love you can't resist it long. The more they have religion and a false god crammed down their throat of coarse their enmity will increase.
You trust in mans ability to resist Gods love, I believe that God's love is more powerful than mans stubborn heart, and when anyone has a true encounter with God, they may resist for a while but God will win them over in the end.
In all the scripture that you say UR twists not once is eternal used, the Greek word for eternal is Aidios, do you not believe that the authors of scripture did not know what they were writing? If they wanted something to mean eternal they would have used Aidios, but instead they used aionion, which is not eternal but it modifies the subject, so when speaking of the believers having aionios zoen, because that life is in Jesus and he is eternal so is the life, now kolasin aionion, is the punishment of the age, it pertains to that age and that age has a beginning and an end, so the punishment has a beginning and an end when the punishment has brought about its purpose.
The real strawman is, the idea that God would create a world, that he says he loves and that includes all humanity, and he will torture forever all those who do not get it correct, while looking at things with a sickness of sin that keeps them blind to the truth, that is a strawman.
The idea that scripture is correct when it says its Gods will that none should perish is God telling us his will, that is not a strawman.
It seems that you put your faith in man and his ability to thwart God and his plan, I put my trust in God and his ability to win all over through his love, which is stronger than mans diluted mind.
It all comes back to you view of God, is he a loving Father, as Jesus demonstrates, that will stop at nothing till all his sheep are found, or is he like the Greek or Roman gods that view humanity as nothing but problem that has gone wrong and at least some can be saved if they jump through the correct hoops and muster up enough faith to get in, the rest get what they deserve, torture forever for not getting in line.

Jeff Saunders · 2025-07-13T09:48:00-0500

BNR32FAN said:
Yeah you’re not the only one who pays attention to the Greek and Hebrew definitions. Can you please post any source that supports your claim about the definition of kolasi? I can

Strong's Greek: 2851. κόλασις (kolasis) -- Punishment, correction

This is from Grok - notice that it says chastisement, typically with a corrective or disciplinary purpose, if God wanted to use punitive punishment he would have used timoria not kolasis.

The Greek word κόλασις (kolasis) in Jesus’s time (circa 1st century CE) primarily meant punishment, correction, or chastisement, often with an emphasis on discipline or retribution intended to correct or reform the offender. Its meaning and usage can be understood through its etymology, contemporary texts, and cultural context.

Definition and Meaning

Primary Meaning: In classical and Koine Greek (the dialect of the New Testament), kolasis referred to punishment or chastisement, typically with a corrective or disciplinary purpose. It was distinct from other Greek terms for punishment, like timoria (τιμωρία), which often implied vengeance or punishment for the sake of retribution without necessarily aiming at reform.
Corrective Nuance: Kolasis often carried the connotation of punishment intended to improve or correct the behavior of the recipient, such as pruning a plant to promote growth or disciplining a person to guide them toward better conduct.
New Testament Usage: In the New Testament, kolasisappears only twice:
- Matthew 25:46: Jesus speaks of the final judgment, where the unrighteous go into “αἰώνιον κόλασιν” (aionion kolasin), often translated as “eternal punishment.” The phrase’s interpretation varies, with some emphasizing eternal torment and others a corrective process, depending on theological perspectives.
- 1 John 4:18: Here, kolasis is used in the sense of “punishment” tied to fear, as in “There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has to do with punishment (kolasis).”

Etymology and Origin

Root: The word kolasis derives from the verb κολάζω (kolazō), meaning “to curtail, prune, dock, or chastise.” This verb is related to the idea of cutting back or restraining, as in pruning branches or curbing behavior.
Indo-European Connection: The root kol- may trace back to Indo-European origins, related to ideas of cutting or shaping, which aligns with the corrective aspect of the word (e.g., pruning to shape a plant).
Development: In earlier Greek literature (e.g., Plato, Aristotle), kolasis was used to describe punishment aimed at moral improvement or societal order, contrasting with timoria, which was more about satisfying justice or vengeance.

Usage 2,000 Years Ago

Philosophical Contexts: In classical Greek texts (e.g., Plato’s Gorgias or Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics), kolasis often referred to disciplinary punishment, such as penalties imposed by a state or educator to reform the offender. For example, Plato distinguished kolasis (corrective) from timoria (retributive).
Legal and Social Contexts: In legal settings, kolasis could describe punishments like fines, imprisonment, or other penalties aimed at deterring or reforming rather than merely avenging a crime.
Everyday Usage: In Koine Greek, as seen in papyri and other non-literary sources, kolasis might refer to practical punishments, such as a parent disciplining a child or a master correcting a slave, emphasizing correction over cruelty.
Religious Contexts: In Jewish and early Christian contexts, kolasis could take on eschatological meanings, as seen in Matthew 25:46, where it describes divine judgment. The term’s corrective nuance may have influenced interpretations, with some Jewish and Christian thinkers viewing divine punishment as potentially restorative, though others saw it as final retribution.

Cultural and Linguistic Context

Greek Thought: The corrective aspect of kolasis resonated with Greek ideas of education (paideia) and moral improvement, where punishment was seen as a tool for shaping character or society.
Jewish Influence: In the Septuagint (LXX, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible), kolasis and related terms were used to translate Hebrew words for divine chastisement, often with a restorative purpose (e.g., God’s discipline of Israel to bring repentance).
Hellenistic Syncretism: In Jesus’s time, Judea was under Hellenistic influence, and kolasis would have been understood in light of both Greek philosophical ideas and Jewish theological concepts of divine justice.

Summary

Around 2,000 years ago, kolasis meant punishment or chastisement, typically with a corrective or disciplinary aim, rooted in the verb kolazō (“to prune, restrain”). It was used in philosophical, legal, social, and religious contexts to describe penalties meant to reform or deter, distinct from purely retributive punishment. In the New Testament, it appears in contexts of divine judgment and fear of punishment, with its precise interpretation shaped by theological debates. Its etymology and usage reflect a focus on correction, like pruning a plant or guiding a person, though its application in eschatological texts like Matthew 25:46 has led to varied interpretations.

19.6s

fhansen · 2025-07-13T10:18:31-0500

Jeff Saunders said:
Your assumption is different than mine, you assume that man's will can thwart Gods will, you are lifting man above God, you think that a man has ability to outlast God.

Did God want Adam to disobey when he commanded him not to? It's not a matter of man thwarting; it's a matter of God allowing, for a time, until all who will...come under His reign.

fhansen · 2025-07-13T10:20:03-0500

BeyondET said:
Can't see the heart while looking away.
Gen 6;5
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

The point is that God is inherently opposed to evil, sin, not the creator or author of it. Besdies, I didn't write Habakkuk 1 or all the verses that maintain that God hates evil/wickedness.

fhansen · 2025-07-13T10:32:59-0500

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Your position of God obviously needs excuses

A Superior God is in no need of excuses IF He is able to overcome all things, which obviously would be the case

A God who directly wills and causes every vicious, selfish lie, every rape and torture of a child, every act of genocide, every act of duplicitousness, etc, etc, etc is not a trustworthy god, not worth following even if he’s the only game in town. Heaven should be no better than hell with such a god anyway. He'd only be superior in power, not in goodness or love,

A God who sovereignly deems it good that freedom be given to His creation even if it means that His will is allowed to be opposed for a time, until all things are consumated, needs no excuses made for Him. He knows the end from the beginning.

Fervent · 2025-07-13T10:46:34-0500

Jeff Saunders said:
Your assumption is different than mine, you assume that man's will can thwart Gods will, you are lifting man above God, you think that a man has ability to outlast God.

If it were matter of power, then all you're saying is that God will overturn the will of those who reject Him by force. So what happened to God allowing free will, if in the end He's not going to allow free will?

fhansen · 2025-07-13T11:01:01-0500

Fervent said:
If it were matter of power, then all you're saying is that God will overturn the will of those who reject Him by force. So what happened to God allowing free will, if in the end He's not going to allow free will?

This is true. And why bother with all the ugliness: the suffering, victimization, etc caused by sin down through the centuries if in the end He's just going to compell all to obedience, or stuff all into heaven in any case?

BNR32FAN · 2025-07-13T11:05:34-0500

Jeff Saunders said:
This is from Grok - notice that it says chastisement, typically with a corrective or disciplinary purpose, if God wanted to use punitive punishment he would have used timoria not kolasis.

The Greek word κόλασις (kolasis) in Jesus’s time (circa 1st century CE) primarily meant punishment, correction, or chastisement, often with an emphasis on discipline or retribution intended to correct or reform the offender. Its meaning and usage can be understood through its etymology, contemporary texts, and cultural context.

Definition and Meaning

Primary Meaning: In classical and Koine Greek (the dialect of the New Testament), kolasis referred to punishment or chastisement, typically with a corrective or disciplinary purpose. It was distinct from other Greek terms for punishment, like timoria (τιμωρία), which often implied vengeance or punishment for the sake of retribution without necessarily aiming at reform.

Corrective Nuance: Kolasis often carried the connotation of punishment intended to improve or correct the behavior of the recipient, such as pruning a plant to promote growth or disciplining a person to guide them toward better conduct.

New Testament Usage: In the New Testament, kolasisappears only twice:

Matthew 25:46: Jesus speaks of the final judgment, where the unrighteous go into “αἰώνιον κόλασιν” (aionion kolasin), often translated as “eternal punishment.” The phrase’s interpretation varies, with some emphasizing eternal torment and others a corrective process, depending on theological perspectives.

1 John 4:18: Here, kolasis is used in the sense of “punishment” tied to fear, as in “There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has to do with punishment (kolasis).”

Etymology and Origin

Root: The word kolasis derives from the verb κολάζω (kolazō), meaning “to curtail, prune, dock, or chastise.” This verb is related to the idea of cutting back or restraining, as in pruning branches or curbing behavior.

Indo-European Connection: The root kol- may trace back to Indo-European origins, related to ideas of cutting or shaping, which aligns with the corrective aspect of the word (e.g., pruning to shape a plant).

Development: In earlier Greek literature (e.g., Plato, Aristotle), kolasis was used to describe punishment aimed at moral improvement or societal order, contrasting with timoria, which was more about satisfying justice or vengeance.

Usage 2,000 Years Ago

Philosophical Contexts: In classical Greek texts (e.g., Plato’s Gorgias or Aristotle’s Nicomachean Ethics), kolasis often referred to disciplinary punishment, such as penalties imposed by a state or educator to reform the offender. For example, Plato distinguished kolasis (corrective) from timoria (retributive).

Legal and Social Contexts: In legal settings, kolasis could describe punishments like fines, imprisonment, or other penalties aimed at deterring or reforming rather than merely avenging a crime.

Everyday Usage: In Koine Greek, as seen in papyri and other non-literary sources, kolasis might refer to practical punishments, such as a parent disciplining a child or a master correcting a slave, emphasizing correction over cruelty.

Religious Contexts: In Jewish and early Christian contexts, kolasis could take on eschatological meanings, as seen in Matthew 25:46, where it describes divine judgment. The term’s corrective nuance may have influenced interpretations, with some Jewish and Christian thinkers viewing divine punishment as potentially restorative, though others saw it as final retribution.

Cultural and Linguistic Context

Greek Thought: The corrective aspect of kolasis resonated with Greek ideas of education (paideia) and moral improvement, where punishment was seen as a tool for shaping character or society.

Jewish Influence: In the Septuagint (LXX, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible), kolasis and related terms were used to translate Hebrew words for divine chastisement, often with a restorative purpose (e.g., God’s discipline of Israel to bring repentance).

Hellenistic Syncretism: In Jesus’s time, Judea was under Hellenistic influence, and kolasis would have been understood in light of both Greek philosophical ideas and Jewish theological concepts of divine justice.

Summary
Around 2,000 years ago, kolasis meant punishment or chastisement, typically with a corrective or disciplinary aim, rooted in the verb kolazō (“to prune, restrain”). It was used in philosophical, legal, social, and religious contexts to describe penalties meant to reform or deter, distinct from purely retributive punishment. In the New Testament, it appears in contexts of divine judgment and fear of punishment, with its precise interpretation shaped by theological debates. Its etymology and usage reflect a focus on correction, like pruning a plant or guiding a person, though its application in eschatological texts like Matthew 25:46 has led to varied interpretations.

19.6s

Right so look closely at the description of kolasis above and compare that to what you wrote in the post I was replying to.

Jeff Saunders said:
Yes I agree that all will be humble before God and not all are going to be part of the kingdom but will be subjects of that kingdom.
No one is burned forever, but the refining that will take place is going to be painful but its purpose if for refinement not punitive.

The word “Punitive” means intending to inflict punishment. And when you apply the description of that punishment with the adjective “aionios” it describes a punishment that is NOT for refinement. And just to be clear I actually lean more towards annihilation than eternal torment because I believe there are more passages supporting that position and it seems to make more sense to me in regard to God’s character. So far I still haven’t seen you quote a single verse where aionios is used in the scriptures in reference to anything that is temporal. So I can’t see applying a definition to the word that isn’t supported anywhere in scripture.

BNR32FAN · 2025-07-13T11:14:08-0500

Jeff Saunders said:
If you are talking about 1 Tim 4:16 - save yourself and your hearers.- the Greek word used as saved is sozo, the same word used when the disciples were in the boat about to sink, and the disciples said save us Lord, that was sozo. it means to make well, heal, or restore to health, to save from physical death. Western tradition has taken this word to mean , if you say the magic prayer now you are going to heaven not hell, that's a modern concept. If it was as you propose why would the disciples ask Jesus to sozo them from the storm, or the people Jesus healed he sozo them, heaven or hell was not even in their thinking.

Oh so you’re saying that if Timothy persevered in his teachings that he would be saved from a physical death? Because that doesn’t actually line up with what happened to James or Stephen in the scriptures nor does it line up with what happened to the rest of the apostles along with the rest of the martyrs in the early church. So what you’re saying doesn’t actually line up with what we observe taking place in both scripture or what we actually observe in taking place in the history of Timothy’s time. So no, sozo in that particular passage cannot be referring to being saved from a physical death.

Fervent · 2025-07-13T11:15:13-0500

BNR32FAN said:
Right so look closely at the description of kolasis above and compare that to what you wrote in the post I was replying to.

The word “Punitive” means intending to inflict punishment. And when you apply the description of that punishment with the adjective “aionios” it describes a punishment that is NOT for refinement. And just to be clear I actually lean more towards annihilation than eternal torment because I believe there are more passages supporting that position and it seems to make more sense to me in regard to God’s character. So far I still haven’t seen you quote a single verse where aionios is used in the scriptures in reference to anything that is temporal. So I can’t see applying a definition to the word that isn’t supported anywhere in scripture.

Yeah, the real crux of why "kolasis" was used is likely to highlight that the punishment is not about pleasing God as "timoria" tends to imply that the motivation comes from the one inflicting the punishment's desire for satisfaction.

BNR32FAN · 2025-07-13T11:23:15-0500

Jeff Saunders said:
Jesus is the foundation of all things, UR Christology is just higher than Western Traditions view of Jesus, we believe that Jesus did not fail in his mission to be the savior of the world, Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for, unless your Jesus is not strong enough, or mans will is greater than his and he just can't get it done.

That’s very similar to the classic Calvinist argument but it doesn’t actually line up with scripture because it doesn’t take into account that the scriptures repeatedly indicate that God requires us to humble ourselves to Him by our own free will in order to be saved and the consequences of refusing to do so results in an eternal punishment, not a temporal punishment.

BNR32FAN · 2025-07-13T11:29:21-0500

Jeff Saunders said:
Jesus is the foundation of all things, UR Christology is just higher than Western Traditions view of Jesus, we believe that Jesus did not fail in his mission to be the savior of the world, Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for, unless your Jesus is not strong enough, or mans will is greater than his and he just can't get it done.

And you never addressed Romans 14:10-11 where Paul says that every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord at the judgement seat of Christ. And according to Revelation 20 it is at the judgement seat of Christ where people are thrown into the lake of fire. What Isaiah 45 is saying is that everyone will repent when they’re standing face to face with The Almighty God and it won’t save them from eternal punishment.

BNR32FAN · 2025-07-13T12:04:33-0500

Fervent said:
Yeah, the real crux of why "kolasis" was used is likely to highlight that the punishment is not about pleasing God as "timoria" tends to imply that the motivation comes from the one inflicting the punishment's desire for satisfaction.

I’m not familiar with the word timoria. Can you please explain what it means and what passage you’re referring to?

Fervent · 2025-07-13T12:14:20-0500

BNR32FAN said:
I’m not familiar with the word timoria. Can you please explain what it means and what passage you’re referring to?

It's just another Greek word for punishment, so I'm comparing the possible options the writer would have had in Matt 25:46 and what the implications would have been. "Kolasis" is a word for punishment motivated by something intrinsic to the one being punished, while "timoria" is a word for punishment with the motivation being intrinsic to the one inflicting the punishment. It's mentioned in @Jeff Saunders summary of "kolasis" in post 223.

BelieveItOarKnot · 2025-07-13T12:15:36-0500

fhansen said:
A God who directly wills and causes every vicious, selfish lie, every rape and torture of a child, every act of genocide, every act of duplicitousness, etc, etc, etc is not a trustworthy god, not worth following even if he’s the only game in town. Heaven should be no better than hell with such a god anyway. He'd only be superior in power, not in goodness or love,

And a supposed God who needs excuses, coverups and insulation from what happens in His Own creation is no God at all

fhansen · 2025-07-13T12:21:09-0500

BelieveItOarKnot said:
And a supposed God who needs excuses, coverups and insulation from what happens in His Own creation is no God at all

Which is why mine were explanations, not excuses. Knowledge is good. Either way the God you present is not worth following.

Jeff Saunders · 2025-07-13T12:55:21-0500

fhansen said:
Did God want Adam to disobey when he commanded him not to? It's not a matter of man thwarting; it's a matter of God allowing, for a time, until all who will...come under His reign.

Its not that God wanted Adam to disobey, its that he knew he would.
That's why scripture says," Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world"
Gods whole reason for his creation was to share in the relationship that the Father/Jesus/ Spirit had had from all eternity, God had a telos in this creation 1 Cor 15:28 " that God will be all in all" and this process of allowing evil to come in and do its work to bring about the plan of God is still in process. Hebrews 2:8 " You have set everything in order under his feet. For in this subordination of all things he left nothing not ordered under him. But at present we do not YET see all things ordered under him". The process of God reconciling all things through Jesus is still in process, its not going to be complete till God id all in all.
It's a matter of God allowing , for a time, until all come under His reign. It does not say " all who will come" you must add that to scripture.

Jeff Saunders · 2025-07-13T13:02:05-0500

Fervent said:
If it were matter of power, then all you're saying is that God will overturn the will of those who reject Him by force. So what happened to God allowing free will, if in the end He's not going to allow free will?

You again are lifting man above God, God does not need nor does he overturn the will of those who reject Him by force. He does not need to force , he is the master creator and will win everyone over with love, We love because he first loved us, that is how God operates out of love, he knows exactly what each person needs and will keep pursuing till every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.
Gods currency is love and there is not a person ever created who can reject his love forever.

fhansen · 2025-07-13T13:09:49-0500

Jeff Saunders said:
It's a matter of God allowing , for a time, until all come under His reign. It does not say " all who will come" you must add that to scripture.

And that's where we disagree, on that 2nd sentence. If all will come, why bother even writing the bible-just herd them in.

The bible beckons, giving us the choice: "If you hear His voice, do not hardened your hearts." "If you wash your robes, if you put to death the deeds of the flesh, if you remain in Me, if you open the door, if you do good, if you invest your talents, if you hear My words and put them into practice, if you persevere"....all with eternal life at stake.

Is God a do as I say not as I do God?

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