Christianity no longer seems moral to me

stevenb6 said:

Edit: I think it might be okay to mention that I have schizophrenia/bi-polar if this seems like a stupid read.
First off I have a tendency to only post negative feelings or experiences, so let me reiterate that I have indeed had a lot of very good moments in my faith

But. Recently going through a rougher patch and it's not necessarily even my patch.

My family seems to be struggling a lot. I have siblings as well and we all know siblings can argue a lot.

The reason for me doubting morality is rooted in the way Christianity is portrayed through mainstream media. It's very counter intuitive to Christianity. I feel like it tries to over emphasize it without explaining the Word of God and including the Holy Spirit into teachings leaving everyone with less than nothing.

In the same way that growing up my parents never mentioned God once. The time I was trying to believe in Jesus was a horrible time as well. I've had a hard time coming to peace with that and constantly ruminate on the mistakes I made through just going with the mainstream Christianity or lack thereof. In the bible it explains how bad it is for anyone who causes the little ones to stumble, yet in the broken world we live in that seems to be the overwhelming majority of people.

And if parents don't teach their kids anything of spiritual sustonence how can God hold that over them growing up with none? It's a habitual cycle of brokenness as I feel the way to finding God is obviously a hard test of faith because I remember not even understanding how to call on the Lord.

I've just seen the way this leads to absolute brokenness and I have a hard time trying to believe God's morality as anything that is actual morale. Morale is based on clear evidence of right or wrong when we are born into this world missing the very Spirit that tells us right from wrong. Unless I'm just so off and he is always actually there allowing our mistakes to happen. Even so though?

It's just is seeming a chaotic cluster fluff to me right now. Deception has been a big topic I'm studying lately and it's hard to believe we live in a world like this, being hated and a target

Click to expand...

As real Christianity is the smallest minority on earth right now, how else would you expect the media/majority to perceive them ?
Just be aware, not all who use the label "Christian" are really servants of God.

stevenb6 said:

Morale is based on clear evidence of right or wrong when we are born into this world missing the very Spirit that tells us right from wrong. Unless I'm just so off and he is always actually there allowing our mistakes to happen. Even so though?

Click to expand...

I like the way Augustine put it:
“God wrote on tablets of stone that which man failed to read in his heart.” (The 10 commandments, of course.)

IOW, the law or morality is already written in man’s heart; God did not create man without a moral guide or compass, a conscience. But that conscience is the voice of God, Himself, inside us and so the further distant we are from God, the further we are from that authoritative voice; we become our own “god”, not necessarily obedient to the authentic morality written inside of us.

Man’s “falleness” consists of that very distance: by disobeying God, man said “no” to His voice, to His godhood, to Him, and the rest is human history. Jesus came to reconcile man with God again, to reestablish that vital connection whereupon we hear Him as we were meant to, we read the law written in our hearts. Having spent time in this seemingly godless world where good and evil are literally known, experienced daily, a world which is a pigsty relative to our true home, we might, like prodigals, run back to the Father when He shows Himself to us and calls us by His grace. As we turn to Him, that connection is realized. That’s the purpose of faith. Jesus came to reveal that true God so that we may believe, and be healed. This is why Christianity is so inestimably valuable, because it tells us who we are: where we came from, why we’re here, and where we’re going.

stevenb6 said:

Edit: I think it might be okay to mention that I have schizophrenia/bi-polar if this seems like a stupid read.
First off I have a tendency to only post negative feelings or experiences, so let me reiterate that I have indeed had a lot of very good moments in my faith

But. Recently going through a rougher patch and it's not necessarily even my patch.

My family seems to be struggling a lot. I have siblings as well and we all know siblings can argue a lot.

The reason for me doubting morality is rooted in the way Christianity is portrayed through mainstream media. It's very counter intuitive to Christianity. I feel like it tries to over emphasize it without explaining the Word of God and including the Holy Spirit into teachings leaving everyone with less than nothing.

In the same way that growing up my parents never mentioned God once. The time I was trying to believe in Jesus was a horrible time as well. I've had a hard time coming to peace with that and constantly ruminate on the mistakes I made through just going with the mainstream Christianity or lack thereof. In the bible it explains how bad it is for anyone who causes the little ones to stumble, yet in the broken world we live in that seems to be the overwhelming majority of people.

And if parents don't teach their kids anything of spiritual sustonence how can God hold that over them growing up with none? It's a habitual cycle of brokenness as I feel the way to finding God is obviously a hard test of faith because I remember not even understanding how to call on the Lord.

I've just seen the way this leads to absolute brokenness and I have a hard time trying to believe God's morality as anything that is actual morale. Morale is based on clear evidence of right or wrong when we are born into this world missing the very Spirit that tells us right from wrong. Unless I'm just so off and he is always actually there allowing our mistakes to happen. Even so though?

It's just is seeming a chaotic cluster fluff to me right now. Deception has been a big topic I'm studying lately and it's hard to believe we live in a world like this, being hated and a target

Click to expand...

Morality/ethics is one thing, but another thing is being able to forgive others and yourself. Christianity and Christian morals do not work without that. Forgive yourself and others being wrong.

stevenb6 said:

Edit: I think it might be okay to mention that I have schizophrenia/bi-polar if this seems like a stupid read.
First off I have a tendency to only post negative feelings or experiences, so let me reiterate that I have indeed had a lot of very good moments in my faith

But. Recently going through a rougher patch and it's not necessarily even my patch.

My family seems to be struggling a lot. I have siblings as well and we all know siblings can argue a lot.

The reason for me doubting morality is rooted in the way Christianity is portrayed through mainstream media. It's very counter intuitive to Christianity. I feel like it tries to over emphasize it without explaining the Word of God and including the Holy Spirit into teachings leaving everyone with less than nothing.

Click to expand...

You'll have to decide what your standard is going to be, the NT or the media.

I think in todays society its hard to know Gods truth or be still and know God. Theres a lot of white noise going on I think compared to say 70 or even 30 years ago a generation back. Though God and Christianity was becoming less central it was still something that was respected and society still used it to some extent as the basis for morality. Go back another couple of generations and it was the basis for society.

But post 2000 and especially in the last 10 years its radically changed. Not only had the long march of radical ideas come to fruition into society from academia creating a postmodern relative reality and morality but the internet and then social media really changed how we communicated.

This gave a platform to all sorts of ideas and beliefs and has really taken over how we interact with each other. Because its detached from engaging face to face and through the relationships we cultivate which humanises reality. Its like a virtual world has been created where altenative realities become the reality for how people see the world.

At the same time I think despite the white noise Christs truth can shine through and will cut through all the rationalisations that dismiss God and Christs truth. Its just a case of sticking to the same truth and restating it.

In some ways I think the more white noise the more Christs truth will stand out if its presented the right way. Which is usually not about words but example. Then the words become more powerful. This is noticed in the early church after Christ that the best leaders were the quiet ones who had Christs disposition and meekness. It was enough to either turn someone to Christ or threaten them.

I think battling with words and arguements can never win someone. In fact its sort of buying into the same game in which the world has the upper hand on their terms.

stevevw said:

I think in todays society its hard to know Gods truth or be still and know God. Theres a lot of white noise going on I think compared to say 70 or even 30 years ago a generation back. Though God and Christianity was becoming less central it was still something that was respected and society still used it to some extent as the basis for morality. Go back another couple of generations and it was the basis for society.
But post 2000 and especially in the last 10 years its radically changed. Not only had the long march of radical ideas come to fruition into society from academia creating a postmodern relative reality and morality but the internet and then social media really changed how we communicated.
This gave a platform to all sorts of ideas and beliefs and has really taken over how we interact with each other. Because its detached from engaging face to face and through the relationships we cultivate which humanises reality. Its like a virtual world has been created where altenative realities become the reality for how people see the world.
At the same time I think despite the white noise Christs truth can shine through and will cut through all the rationalisations that dismiss God and Christs truth. Its just a case of sticking to the same truth and restating it.
In some ways I think the more white noise the more Christs truth will stand out if its presented the right way. Which is usually not about words but example. Then the words become more powerful. This is noticed in the early church after Christ that the best leaders were the quiet ones who had Christs disposition and meekness. It was enough to either turn someone to Christ or threaten them.
I think battling with words and arguements can never win someone. In fact its sort of buying into the same game in which the world has the upper hand on their terms.

Click to expand...

Only if you agree with them on what is the authority for truth.

And you're not going to get them to agree with what is your Authority for truth.

stevevw said:

I think in todays society its hard to know Gods truth or be still and know God. Theres a lot of white noise going on I think compared to say 70 or even 30 years ago a generation back. Though God and Christianity was becoming less central it was still something that was respected and society still used it to some extent as the basis for morality. Go back another couple of generations and it was the basis for society.

But post 2000 and especially in the last 10 years its radically changed. Not only had the long march of radical ideas come to fruition into society from academia creating a postmodern relative reality and morality but the internet and then social media really changed how we communicated.

This gave a platform to all sorts of ideas and beliefs and has really taken over how we interact with each other. Because its detached from engaging face to face and through the relationships we cultivate which humanises reality. Its like a virtual world has been created where altenative realities become the reality for how people see the world.

At the same time I think despite the white noise Christs truth can shine through and will cut through all the rationalisations that dismiss God and Christs truth. Its just a case of sticking to the same truth and restating it.

In some ways I think the more white noise the more Christs truth will stand out if its presented the right way. Which is usually not about words but example. Then the words become more powerful. This is noticed in the early church after Christ that the best leaders were the quiet ones who had Christs disposition and meekness. It was enough to either turn someone to Christ or threaten them.

I think battling with words and arguements can never win someone. In fact its sort of buying into the same game in which the world has the upper hand on their terms.

Click to expand...

And yet despite all that, pehaps ironcially, I think there are also more and more people who're becoming jaded with the way things are, and open to the truths of our faith, open to God. If many members of previous generations often accepted Christianity for reasons of cultural tradition, without much question, my generation questioned pretty much everything. But when such people do convert to the living God, it's generally going to be the real thing- since they asked, sought, and knocked for themselves.

Clare73 said:

Only if you agree with them on what is the authority for truth.

And you're not going to get them to agree with what is your Authority for truth.

Click to expand...

Thats a good point. Because its not really about objective science or any fact we can point to. Its a matter of belief whether its based in God or some other worldly idea about what is moral.

Even if there was evidence this would still be disputed and disagreed upon because its based on a belief which doesn't conform to the evidence or truth.

fhansen said:

And yet despite all that, pehaps ironcially, I think there are also more and more people who're becoming jaded with the way things are, and open to the truths of our faith, open to God. If many members of previous generations often accepted Christianity for reasons of cultural tradition, without much question, my generation questioned pretty much everything. But when such people do convert to the living God, it's generally going to be the real thing- since they asked, sought, and knocked for themselves.

Click to expand...

Yes and no I think. I don't think many in the old testament or even in the early church had science or enlightenment to question God. Yet they had great faith even until death.

Christ speaks of a child like faith that cannot be answered by enlightened questioning. Faith seems to work no matter what.

I agree for the individuals it is good that our right to belief is in our hands and we can rationally work out whats false and what is truth. But then rationality is also a threat to faith and we cannot believe due to rationality. So I think it works up to a point and then its the evidence unseen which cannot be rationalised.

stevevw said:

Yes and no I think. I don't think many in the old testament or even in the early church had science or enlightenment to question God. Yet they had great faith even until death.

Christ speaks of a child like faith that cannot be answered by enlightened questioning. Faith seems to work no matter what.

I agree for the individuals it is good that our right to belief is in our hands and we can rationally work out whats false and what is truth. But then rationality is also a threat to faith and we cannot believe due to rationality. So I think it works up to a point and then its the evidence unseen which cannot be rationalised.

Click to expand...

It's the witness of the Holy Spirit to our spirit that cannot be rationalized.

stevevw said:

Yes and no I think. I don't think many in the old testament or even in the early church had science or enlightenment to question God. Yet they had great faith even until death.

Christ speaks of a child like faith that cannot be answered by enlightened questioning. Faith seems to work no matter what.

I agree for the individuals it is good that our right to belief is in our hands and we can rationally work out whats false and what is truth. But then rationality is also a threat to faith and we cannot believe due to rationality. So I think it works up to a point and then its the evidence unseen which cannot be rationalised.

Click to expand...

Most theologians have long understood that faith and reason do not contradict or conflict with each other. Faith is a supernatural gift that simply reaches beyond reason's capacity to know and to believe on its own. And science wasn't missing in the early church as some philosphers and academics attempted to use it as a weapon against Christianity at least as early as the 3rd or 4th centuries. Augustine had much to say about all this.

Anyway, for me I see some people today growing more cynical about God, often still misusing our even more advanced modern science to rule God out, while others are seeing through that and growing more cyncial about scientism, trusting in science to be able to answer the more important questions and solve life's problems. I think a child-like faith is growing more appealing now than ever to a portion of young people, hopefully a great number of them.

fhansen said:

Most theologians have long understood that faith and reason do not contradict or conflict with each other. Faith is a supernatural gift that simply reaches beyond reason's capacity to know and to believe on its own. And science wasn't missing in the early church as some philosphers and academics attempted to use it as a weapon against Christianity at least as early as the 3rd or 4th centuries. Augustine had much to say about all this.

Anyway, for me I see some people today growing more cynical about God, often still misusing our even more advanced modern science to rule God out, while others are seeing through that and growing more cyncial about scientism, trusting in science to be able to answer the more important questions and solve life's problems. I think a child-like faith is growing more appealing now than ever to a portion of young people, hopefully a great number of them.

Click to expand...

Don't they say science attempts to answer the 'how' questions and religion the 'why; questions.

fhansen said:

Most theologians have long understood that faith and reason do not contradict or conflict with each other. Faith is a supernatural gift that simply reaches beyond reason's capacity to know and to believe on its own. And science wasn't missing in the early church as some philosphers and academics attempted to use it as a weapon against Christianity at least as early as the 3rd or 4th centuries.

Click to expand...

Augustine had much to say about all this.
Anyway, for me I see some people today growing more cynical about God, often still misusing our even more advanced modern science to rule God out, while others are seeing through that and growing more cyncial about scientism, trusting in science to be able to answer the more important questions and solve life's problems. I think a child-like faith is growing more appealing now than ever to a portion of young people, hopefully a great number of them.

Click to expand...

As long as it is based on more than a child-like knowledge of the word of God.

Clare73 said:

As long as it is based on more than a child-like knowledge of the word of God.

Click to expand...

It needs to be based on grace-and on the fullest and truest understanding of the word of God as possible. But some complicate it with private, novel interpretations woodenly fixated on a particular position or two, coming up with a variety of intellectual concepts that sorta kinda resolve some questions while giving rise to others, and often out of alignment with the historic understanding of the church in the east and west along with that of the early fathers.

fhansen said:

It needs to be based on grace-and on the fullest and truest understanding of the word of God as possible. But some complicate it with private, novel interpretations woodenly fixated on a particular position or two, coming up with a variety of intellectual concepts that sorta kinda resolve some questions while giving rise to others, and often out of alignment with the historic understanding of the church in the east and west along with that of the early fathers.

Click to expand...

The rule for understanding is agreement with the rest of Scripture in its context.
My understanding has no conflict anywhere with Scripture as understood in its own context.

stevenb6 said:

Edit: I think it might be okay to mention that I have schizophrenia/bi-polar if this seems like a stupid read.
First off I have a tendency to only post negative feelings or experiences, so let me reiterate that I have indeed had a lot of very good moments in my faith

But. Recently going through a rougher patch and it's not necessarily even my patch.

My family seems to be struggling a lot. I have siblings as well and we all know siblings can argue a lot.

The reason for me doubting morality is rooted in the way Christianity is portrayed through mainstream media. It's very counter intuitive to Christianity. I feel like it tries to over emphasize it without explaining the Word of God and including the Holy Spirit into teachings leaving everyone with less than nothing.

In the same way that growing up my parents never mentioned God once. The time I was trying to believe in Jesus was a horrible time as well. I've had a hard time coming to peace with that and constantly ruminate on the mistakes I made through just going with the mainstream Christianity or lack thereof. In the bible it explains how bad it is for anyone who causes the little ones to stumble, yet in the broken world we live in that seems to be the overwhelming majority of people.

And if parents don't teach their kids anything of spiritual sustonence how can God hold that over them growing up with none? It's a habitual cycle of brokenness as I feel the way to finding God is obviously a hard test of faith because I remember not even understanding how to call on the Lord.

I've just seen the way this leads to absolute brokenness and I have a hard time trying to believe God's morality as anything that is actual morale. Morale is based on clear evidence of right or wrong when we are born into this world missing the very Spirit that tells us right from wrong. Unless I'm just so off and he is always actually there allowing our mistakes to happen. Even so though?

It's just is seeming a chaotic cluster fluff to me right now. Deception has been a big topic I'm studying lately and it's hard to believe we live in a world like this, being hated and a target

Click to expand...

It seems to me the issue isn’t Christianity, it’s how you understand the Bible while trying to see it through a lens impacted by a psychological condition while also reconciling it with how you believe society sees it. It also seems like you leave no space or incorrectly believe there is no space for fallibility and/or redemption.

But the most important answer at this exact second is that if thinking like this is a warning sign to an episode, seek professional help before tackling any theological concepts. That should be the priority.

stevenb6 said:

if parents don't teach their kids

Click to expand...

The first thing I think of is . . . we need to teach our children right from wrong. So, we can't be worrying about how ruined and miserable people don't like our Biblical rules. There are ones who do not know how to love; and so they are against what we must do for God. And in their weakness for wrong ways and wrong pleasures, they also are weak for all the miserable and confusing stuff they get into. So, there is no "choice" about this > God knows what is in His Holy Spirit of His love, and what isn't. And so we have His rules to help guide us to stay in His love in such personal sharing and relating with Him and one another.

***And this includes how Jesus wants us to love any and all people.***

Our Biblical morals are not only about what we may do and what is forbidden. But Jesus has given us morals to help us to discover how to love.

Among other things > have hope for any person, at all > love "hopes all things", we have in 1 Corinthians 13:7.

So, morals are not only about what you might be seeing getting attention in politics.

But there are rules . . . morals . . . about how to relate with other people. You say >

stevenb6 said:

we all know siblings can argue a lot.

Click to expand...

But . . . don't argue. God's word is very clear >

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation," (in Philippians 2:13-16)

Arguing and complaining are two basic things that can ruin you and your relating with people close to you. And as we say "no" to whatever in us would have us argue, now we can become deeply strong in God's love, instead, and discover how we can share with God and become ***creative in our Creator's love***, so we are creative for how to love any person, at all.

"if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46) This is a moral principle for how to love.

However - - arguing . . . I would say, just thinking about this now . . . can have a way of making us mainly about our own selves and having power over someone else, to use someone. It can be trying to force things, instead of depending on God.

And with God . . . God has us using prayer and good example in order to help others to do what is right for themselves > we care more about others becoming sound in love, than we care about getting our own way and using people. And so, instead of arguing, use prayer and example to win people to what is good with God.

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

People get hurt and frustrated because of giving in to arguing; so we need to love one another, by not arguing. Because, in our weakness and noncreativity of arguing, we can be weak enough to go after foolish and wrong pleasures in order to make ourselves feel better, plus ones break down even into divorcing each other because they are not deeply strong and creative enough to take care of problems creatively and to forgive generously.

Like I offer > arguing can be trying to force things, instead of depending on how God is able to bless and guide another person in His peace with "rest for your souls" (in Matthew 11:29) in sharing with Jesus. So, arguing is anti-love . . . against how God's word says we need to relate with one another >

"submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)

Mutual submission is God's way of relating in His love. And if we are being honest and submissive with one another . . . we both enjoy sharing with our Father, at the same time . . . "in the fear of God" > so we can have His input and personal guiding with each other. So, this is included in staying faithful to Jesus . . . not having affairs with wrong things like arguing and complaining . . . saying "no" to the anger and impatience which can feed us to argue and complain > relate with Jesus in His peace and creativity, instead.

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

And therefore we do well to seek our Father who alone is able to correct us and change us in how we relate. This is part of our investment in becoming like Jesus and loving as His family.

God is able to make us deeply quiet and sensitive and gentle and humble and submissive to Him. This does not depend on us; so if we have failed, be encouraged that God through Jesus is able and committed to sharing with us like this.

Is this about Christianity in the abstract, or personal faith? Christianity in the abstract is always somewhat of a moving target, always being instrumentalized by culture, sometimes maliciously. You aren't the first to notice this or wrestle with this. The issue is we need the wisdom and emotional maturity to see that. Then we can distinguish between Christianity as an idea, and a personal faith in the living God. Christianity points the way, but it can't substitute for our personal faith. Faith isn't necessarily "head-knowledge", it's trust, relationship. If trust and relationship are too hard to understand and relate to, then we need to work through our own brokenness, preferably with a trusted psychotherapist, pastor, priest, or spiritual director. This isn't a personal condemnation on you, just advice. We can hardly know God well if we are looking through a distorted lens built on our own woundedness.

As for me, Christianity is the only frame I have that makes sense of the deepest things in life, like love, relationships, beauty, and meaning. It's going to be somewhat different for every person, because we are all unique. I know that's a cliche, but it's nontheless true. What you get out of it is somewhat related to what you put into it, similar to Jesus own parables, faith asks something from you, it isn't free in the sense of not carrying some kind of existential weight.

That notion of a clear sense of right and wrong is precisely what makes some sort of religious belief essential, as there is no room for morals with some objective evaluator. The issue is, which religion teaches the true morality? That depends on identifying the right moral framework, but there are critical failures to every philosophical framework. Consequentialism robs morality of anything but number crunching, deontology robs morality of flexibility and responsiveness, various subjective frames of morality end up unable to condemn even the most heinous actions...of them all, eudemonism comes the closest. But the thing that's missing from eudemonism is a clear human ideal for which we our purpose is revealed. Which is what Christianity adds, a clear purpose for humanity: to be conformed to the image of Christ.

That doesn't mean that within Christianity there aren't deeply flawed teachings that can be morally troubling, but God named His people Israel(contends with God) for a reason. And that reason wasn't to slavishly follow instructions without developing our own consciences, but to wrestle with Him on matters of conscience until we either understand His reason or recognize our own insufficiency to judge Him. There are positions within Christianity that address many of the things you express as finding intolerable, such as the teaching that people will be judged according to what they have done with what they had instruction wise. God knows that we are but blades of grass, springing up for a season only to wither away again. He demands that humans use honest measurements, and so we can expect Him to do the same.