Christian "Apostasy" =unpardonable sin doctrine supposed to learn at young age

fhansen · Monday at 4:37 PM

Clare73 said:
Seems Paul disagrees with you (Ro 8:16).

Having received his doctrine in heaven from Jesus (2 Co 12:1-8, Gal 11-12), I'm sure you'll understand if I go with Paul.

Paul, himself, states in Phil 2 that salvation is worked out, and acknowledges in Phil 3 that he, himself, was striving to attain to the resurrection from the dead, not having acheived it yet. In humility, this is all a great hope for Christians-not a totally done deal, while a hope that we can nonetheless have a strong assurance about.

ozso · Tuesday at 2:16 AM

fhansen said:
All right, but I'm not sure what salvation even means apart from eternal life. You are right, the concept was vague in the Old testament, and blessings for living according to God's will had more to do with peace and prosperity in the present life.

But as I see it, one of the most important messages of our faith is that, in order to know who God truly is and how trustworthy He truly is and how worthy of our love He truly is, the problem of death must be addressed and it was, in very definitive terms by Jesus and His sacrificial death and resurrection. In fact, everything He said and did was a revelation of who God is, of His heart, of His will, for man.

Jesus laid down his life in order that He might raise it back up, dramatically resolving the prospect of non-existence that looms over our lives and threatens to render them meaningless.

And salvation does mean a lot more than going to heaven BTW, especially considering the fact that we hardly know what that means anyway. In any case, salvation means to fulill our very created purpose as we draw near to God and nearer and nearer to His own likeness, as we become perfected in love of Him and neighbor to put it another way. This is our purpose, our telos, our wholeness, our integrity and happiness, our raison d'etre.

When it come to what salvation means apart from eternal life in the afterlife, consider all the testimonies of deliverence from those who came to Christ. What their life was like and what kind of person they before. The Greek for 'eternal life', aionios zoe, can be translated as 'the good life'. A high quality life experienced on a spiritual level that transcends the flesh. A higher plane of existence. It's said that the reason why people get drunk and take drugs is because they're trying to fill the "God shaped void" in their life.

fhansen · Tuesday at 7:52 AM

ozso said:
When it come to what salvation means apart from eternal life in the afterlife, consider all the testimonies of deliverence from those who came to Christ. What their life was like and what kind of person they before. The Greek for 'eternal life', aionios zoe, can be translated as 'the good life'. A high quality life experienced on a spiritual level that transcends the flesh. A higher plane of existence. It's said that the reason why people get drunk and take drugs is because they're trying to fill the "God shaped void" in their life.

Yes, and the God who fills that void is the God of Life! The God who fulfills all human desire: the God whom Jesus came to reveal-not limited to the God you seem to prefer for some reason who would temporarily fulfill a need and then, IDK, that's it? It's a total package-you can't separate eternal life from the knowledge of the true God. Eternal life begins here for those who know and love Him.

ozso · Tuesday at 8:05 AM

fhansen said:
Yes, and the God who fills that void is the God of Life! The God who fulfills all human desire: the God whom Jesus came to reveal-not limited to the God you seem to prefer for some reason who would temporarily fulfill a need and then, IDK, that's it? It's a total package-you can't separate eternal life from the knowledge of the true God. Eternal life begins here for those who know and love Him.

? It's like you're so in contention mode, you have turn what I said into something I didn't say. Salvation is both a daily and eternal experience. I think we're done here.

fhansen · Tuesday at 8:25 AM

A New Dawn said:
Why would Paul need to speak to the gentile church about the inability of the works of the law to justify them. As gentiles they already don’t believe in the works of the law.

Legalism is a negative trait that easily takes root in fallen humanity-but also even in believers as they're still imperfect and weak vessels who struggle against sin and ignorance. So, already Paul was speaking of faith vs the law to the Philippians, who were mostly gentiles. And of course the Judaizers were tempting gentiles to be under the law which Paul railed against in Galatians. And Acts 15, of course, describes the meeting that took place on regarding this very matter.

But the bottom line is that God, alone, justifies, not the law: “God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.” Acts 15:8-9

There’s nothing we can do in order to be justified other than opening the door when He knocks, saying “yes” instead of “no” when He calls-and continuing to say yes every day. Because once we begin to rely on Him and not ourselves, once the Holy Spirit indwells us, we can begin to live as He desires man to live and then must walk in that justice, that authentic righteousness that comes only from Him-as children of His should.

Man is a law unto himself, doing what’s right in his own eyes if he hasn’t heard God’s revealed law. But once man is united with God, as he’s meant to be, then the law begins to be written on his heart more and more clearly-even if he never hears it.

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

A New Dawn · Tuesday at 10:27 AM

fhansen said:
Legalism is a negative trait that easily takes root in fallen humanity-but also even in believers as they're still imperfect and weak vessels who struggle against sin and ignorance. So, already Paul was speaking of faith vs the law to the Philippians, who were mostly gentiles. And of course the Judaizers were tempting gentiles to be under the law which Paul railed against in Galatians. And Acts 15, of course, describes the meeting that took place on regarding this very matter.

But the bottom line is that God, alone, justifies, not the law: “God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.” Acts 15:8-9

There’s nothing we can do in order to be justified other than opening the door when He knocks, saying “yes” instead of “no” when He calls-and continuing to say yes every day. Because once we begin to rely on Him and not ourselves, once the Holy Spirit indwells us, we can begin to live as He desires man to live and then must walk in that justice, that authentic righteousness that comes only from Him-as children of His should.

Man is a law unto himself, doing what’s right in his own eyes if he hasn’t heard God’s revealed law. But once man is united with God, as he’s meant to be, then the law begins to be written on his heart more and more clearly-even if he never hears it.

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

And this is why it is futile trying to have a discussion with you. Your claim is that Paul is speaking about the Jewish law, and only the Jewish law, when he talks about salvation not being by works, and when I confront you about the fact that the idea of salvation by works has been an issue even throughout the church age, you back peddle and and claim that it is God alone that justifies, not the law. WHICH IS WHAT I SAID.

Have a nice day.

fhansen · Tuesday at 5:41 PM

ozso said:
? It's like you're so in contention mode, you have turn what I said into something I didn't say. Salvation is both a daily and eternal experience. I think we're done here.

Well...I might contend over the contention that I'm contentious...but...I probably won't as I'm sure I'm not immune to being that way at times. OTOH, "in the fullness of time" Jesus gave us the fullest and surest revelation of God's nature and His will for man-and I honestly think we know Him best when that whole understanding is held in view.

fhansen · Tuesday at 10:05 PM

A New Dawn said:
And this is why it is futile trying to have a discussion with you. Your claim is that Paul is speaking about the Jewish law, and only the Jewish law, when he talks about salvation not being by works, and when I confront you about the fact that the idea of salvation by works has been an issue even throughout the church age, you back peddle and and claim that it is God alone that justifies, not the law. WHICH IS WHAT I SAID.

Have a nice day.

Silliness. I don't have to "back peddle"-I said we're justifed by God alone at least as far back as post #51. We are not made just by any work, IOW, because that would be US doing it -and not GOD.

The issue that you have is with the historic Christian faith, in your insistence that righteousness is merely and solely imputed to or declared of us at justification: we're made to look just, IOW, as a cloak put on us, when, in fact we're not just. But, in Christianity, God doesn't save us by pretending that we're righteous; rather, He saves us by making us righteous. And if we remain in Him we will remain in that justice, that righteouesness, doing His will. If we're not doing His will, if we're sinning wantonly and egregiously, then we haven't remained in Him and while He'll always seek to draw us back to Himself, to the fold, we can't presume that He'll override our wills: to sin is to set ourselves against Him and His will to begin with.

God is not expecting perfect sinlessness in this life, only that we get on board with Him on the path He's set out for us, and remain there, or repent and return there if we've seriously strayed. The Way, the path to God, is away from sin. And our wills are involved all throughout that journey. God's purpose from Eden until now has never been about producing automatons but about producing a greater being than He began with, who now, willingly with the aid of grace, has ultimately come to love Him with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength-and their neighbor as themselves. That's your very purpose, your created telos.

A New Dawn · Wednesday at 7:50 AM

fhansen said:
Silliness. I don't have to "back peddle"-I said we're justifed by God alone at least as far back as post #51. We are not made just by any work, IOW, because that would be US doing it -and not GOD.

The issue that you have is with the historic Christian faith, in your insistence that righteousness is merely and solely imputed to or declared of us at justification: we're made to look just, IOW, as a cloak put on us, when, in fact we're not just. But, in Christianity, God doesn't save us by pretending that we're righteous; rather, He saves us by making us righteous. And if we remain in Him we will remain in that justice, that righteouesness, doing His will. If we're not doing His will, if we're sinning wantonly and egregiously, then we haven't remained in Him and while He'll always seek to draw us back to Himself, to the fold, we can't presume that He'll override our wills: to sin is to set ourselves against Him and His will to begin with.

God is not expecting perfect sinlessness in this life, only that we get on board with Him on the path He's set out for us, and remain there, or repent and return there if we've seriously strayed. The Way, the path to God, is away from sin. And our wills are involved all throughout that journey. God's purpose from Eden until now has never been about producing automatons but about producing a greater being than He began with, who now, willingly with the aid of grace, has ultimately come to love Him with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength-and their neighbor as themselves. That's your very purpose, your created telos.

NO! God saves us because the Blood of Christ covers us! Jesus stands between us and God so God only sees Christ. If God actually makes us righteous, then we wouldn’t sin any more. But no, we still sin because sin is still all around us, but we have the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide us in helping us to conform to the image of Christ. Remember the Passover. That is the picture of what Christ did for us. It will not be till we are in heaven in the presence of God, in the absence of sin, that we will be righteous.

A New Dawn · Wednesday at 9:57 AM

fhansen said:
Silliness. I don't have to "back peddle"-I said we're justifed by God alone at least as far back as post #51. We are not made just by any work, IOW, because that would be US doing it -and not GOD.

The issue that you have is with the historic Christian faith, in your insistence that righteousness is merely and solely imputed to or declared of us at justification: we're made to look just, IOW, as a cloak put on us, when, in fact we're not just. But, in Christianity, God doesn't save us by pretending that we're righteous; rather, He saves us by making us righteous. And if we remain in Him we will remain in that justice, that righteouesness, doing His will. If we're not doing His will, if we're sinning wantonly and egregiously, then we haven't remained in Him and while He'll always seek to draw us back to Himself, to the fold, we can't presume that He'll override our wills: to sin is to set ourselves against Him and His will to begin with.

God is not expecting perfect sinlessness in this life, only that we get on board with Him on the path He's set out for us, and remain there, or repent and return there if we've seriously strayed. The Way, the path to God, is away from sin. And our wills are involved all throughout that journey. God's purpose from Eden until now has never been about producing automatons but about producing a greater being than He began with, who now, willingly with the aid of grace, has ultimately come to love Him with their whole heart, soul, mind, and strength-and their neighbor as themselves. That's your very purpose, your created telos.

The Westminster Catechism defines Justification as “an act of God’s free grace, wherein He pardons all our sins and accepts us as righteous in His sight, only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and received by faith alone. “

He accepts us as righteous, not he makes us righteous.

fhansen · Wednesday at 10:03 AM

A New Dawn said:
NO! God saves us because the Blood of Christ covers us! Jesus stands between us and God so God only sees Christ. If God actually makes us righteous, then we wouldn’t sin any more.

And yet you correctly say:

A New Dawn said:
we have the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide us in helping us to conform to the image of Christ.

And Rom 6 says:
"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:20-22

And many places, speaking to the church, are adamant that there are sins that will keep one from heaven: Rom 8:12-14, Gal 5:19-21, Gal 6:7-9, Heb 12:14, Rom 2:7, Rev 21:6-8, Rev 22:14-15, the first letter of John, etc.

A New Dawn said:
It will not be till we are in heaven in the presence of God, in the absence of sin, that we will be righteous.

As I said, "God is not expecting perfect sinlessness in this life...", but, again, to say that personal righteousness, with a life lived accordingly in the here and now, a righteousness that is afforded to us by God as we unite with Him through faith, a righteousness that means the Holy Spirit is alive and active within us, is not a requirement for entrance into heaven is to misunderstand the gospel at best, and do violence to it a worst.

And to try to play both sides at once as some do by implying that they've got it covered either way because God does make us holy to some extent by sanctification while He nonetheless doesn't require that sanctity for entrance into heaven is to engage in double-speak, ignore Scripture, and not deal with the issue of sin honestly. If interested in knowing how the church dealt with this matter historically, a very brief description is given in post #669 here:

SALVATION

The highlighted portion isn’t a mark because it’s not something that is noticeable. It is noticeable. I can see whether I'm forgiven or not. The fact that you can't see it makes no difference. Same is true of the new man that Christ created in me when He came to live in my heart. I can see it...

www.christianforums.com

fhansen · Wednesday at 10:04 AM

A New Dawn said:
The Westminster Catechism defines Justification as “an act of God’s free grace, wherein He pardons all our sins and accepts us as righteous in His sight, only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us and received by faith alone. “

He accepts us as righteous, not he makes us righteous.

Yes, that was an error of the Reformation.

A New Dawn · Wednesday at 10:18 AM

fhansen said:
And yet you correctly say:

And Rom 6 says:
"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:20-22

And many places, speaking to the church, are adamant that there are sins that will keep one from heaven: Rom 8:12-14, Gal 5:19-21, Gal 6:7-9, Heb 12:14, Rev 21:6-8, Rev 22:14-15.

As I said, "God is not expecting perfect sinlessness in this life...", but, again, to say that personal righteousness, with a life lived accordingly in the here and now, a righteousness that is afforded to us by God as we unite with Him through faith, a righteousness that means the Holy Spirit is alive and active within us, is not a requirement for entrance into heaven is to misunderstand the gospel at best, and do violence to it a worst.

And to try to play both sides at once as some do by implying that they've got it covered either way because God does make us holy to some extent by sanctification while He nonetheless doesn't require that sanctity for entrance into heaven is to engage in double-speak, ignore Scripture, and not deal with the issue of sin honestly. If interested in knowing how the church dealt with this matter historically, a very brief description is given in post #669 here:

SALVATION

The highlighted portion isn’t a mark because it’s not something that is noticeable. It is noticeable. I can see whether I'm forgiven or not. The fact that you can't see it makes no difference. Same is true of the new man that Christ created in me when He came to live in my heart. I can see it...

www.christianforums.com

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim that God MAKES us righteous and then say “God is not expecting perfect sinlessness in this life…”. What do you think righteousness is but a sinless life?

And the fact that you are dissing sanctification, the work of the Holy Spirit in us, calling it “playing both sides at once”, is disturbing, to say the least. Bottom line is - justification and sanctification are two separate processes, both stemming from God’s grace and mercy, that work to glorify God by showing His workmanship in our lives.

fhansen · Wednesday at 10:23 AM

A New Dawn said:
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim that God MAKES us righteous and then say “God is not expecting perfect sinlessness in this life…”. What do you think righteousness is but a sinless life?

Read Scripture, the passages I listed, read the history I offered, and then get back to me, better informed this time-and hopefully no longer laughing at Christianity.

A New Dawn · Wednesday at 10:28 AM

fhansen said:
Read Scripture, the passages I listed, read the history I offered, and then get back to me, better informed this time-and hopefully no longer laughing at Christianity.

I was not laughing at Christianity, I was laughing at your ability to diss Gods work in man and still call yourself a Christian.

fhansen · Wednesday at 10:36 AM

A New Dawn said:
I was not laughing at Christianity, I was laughing at your ability to diss Gods work in man and still call yourself a Christian.

Oh, that wasn't God's work, as if God's church, in both the east and the west, had gotten it wrong for 1500 years. Only satan would be smiling about a "gospel" that succeeds in making it ok to remain in our sins, as God now pretends that we're righteous when we're not. He might as well retract Is 5:20, or 1 John 3 for that matter.

A New Dawn · Wednesday at 10:51 AM

fhansen said:
Oh, that wasn't God's work, as if God's church, in both the east and the west, had gotten it wrong for 1500 years. Only satan would be smiling about a "gospel" that succeeds in making it ok to remain in our sins, as God now pretends that we're righteous when we're not. He might as well retract Is 5:20, or 1 John 3 for that matter.

So you are suggesting that the Holy Spirit's work in our lives, helping to conform us to the image of Christ, is Satan's work? Again, you are in the act of dissing God's work in us and expecting us to take you seriously in this discussion.

Thanks, but no thanks.

fhansen · Wednesday at 11:11 AM

A New Dawn said:
So you are suggesting that the Holy Spirit's work in our lives, helping to conform us to the image of Christ, is Satan's work? Again, you are in the act of dissing God's work in us and expecting us to take you seriously in this discussion.

Thanks, but no thanks.

No, you're just avoiding the question. In your scenario holiness is not required in order to enter heaven, because righteousness is merely declared of or imputed to us and sanctification is sort of a side benefit. That's the problem. You can't have it both ways. It makes no sense, so this history that I presented for you to consider is the only way to honestly and sanely understand sin and its potential deadliness, for anyone.

IOW, you've been insisting that personal holiness is not required in order to enter heaven because we can't be righteous anyway, and we require a vicarious righteousness of Christ to stand in our place. And then you want to take that away with the other hand by saying that we can be righteous after all by the power of the Holy Spirit. So which is it? My position is that we must be righteous by the power of the Holy Spirit and that we must cooperate and participate in that walk with Him throughout our lives in order to see God. And Jesus came to make all that possible, to clear the way, to forgive past sins and enable us by virtue of our now reconciled connection to/relationship with God, to sin no more, to put to death the deeds of the flesh to the best we can in this life with the gifts of the Spirit given. Ref Luke 12:48, Matt 25:14-30, Rom 6:22, Rom 8:12-14

A New Dawn · Wednesday at 12:47 PM

fhansen said:
No, you're just avoiding the question. In your scenario holiness is not required in order to enter heaven, because righteousness is merely declared of or imputed to us and sanctification is sort of a side benefit. That's the problem. You can't have it both ways. It makes no sense, so this history that I presented for you to consider is the only way to honestly and sanely understand sin and its potential deadliness, for anyone.

IOW, you've been insisting that personal holiness is not required in order to enter heaven because we can't be righteous anyway, and we require a vicarious righteousness of Christ to stand in our place. And then you want to take that away with the other hand by saying that we can be righteous after all by the power of the Holy Spirit. So which is it? My position is that we must be righteous by the power of the Holy Spirit and that we must cooperate and participate in that walk with Him throughout our lives in order to see God. And Jesus came to make all that possible, to clear the way, to forgive past sins and enable us by virtue of our now reconciled connection to/relationship with God, to sin no more, to put to death the deeds of the flesh to the best we can in this life with the gifts of the Spirit given. Ref Luke 12:48, Matt 25:14-30, Rom 6:22, Rom 8:12-14

What you’re suggesting is that my claim that we are not made righteous when we are justified means that I’m suggesting that that is the be all and end all of Gods work in us and that we don’t even believe in being sanctified. I reject that. That’s called antinomianism, that is a heresy.

fhansen · Wednesday at 1:09 PM

A New Dawn said:
What you’re suggesting is that my claim that we are not made righteous when we are justified means that I’m suggesting that that is the be all and end all of Gods work in us and that we don’t even believe in being sanctified. I reject that. That’s called antinomianism, that is a heresy.

No, I'm rejecting the idea that we are justified, and thereby saved, by merely being adorned with a cloak of declared righteousness rather than by our washing our cloaks of unrighteousness (Rev 22:14). You want to deny that sinlessness has anything to do with our entering heaven, due to the fact that we can't be righteous until the next life, and then make sanctification somehow play a role anyway. So, again, which is it? Do we need to overcome sin in this life at least to some degree, determined by God, in order to enter heaven in the next, or not? Can you reconcile the following verses with each other?

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin." Rom 3:20

"...know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified." Gal 2:16

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—" Eph 2:8

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger." Rom 2:7

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"...for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” 1 Pet 1:16

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

A New Dawn said:
He accepts us as righteous, not he makes us righteous.

Christian "Apostasy" =unpardonable sin doctrine supposed to learn at young age

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Bind my wandering heart to thee!

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Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

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Bind my wandering heart to thee!

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Bind my wandering heart to thee!

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Bind my wandering heart to thee!

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