Christian "Apostasy" =unpardonable sin doctrine supposed to learn at young age

[Clare73]

My brother you are adding a dimension to the verses that is not there. The sheep are indeed believers but they will never “leave” since He has given them eternal life and they will never perish. John explains this concept further in John 10.

““I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf snatches them and scatters the flock. He flees because he is a hired hand and does not care about the sheep. I am the good shepherd, and I know My own, and My own know Me, just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice; and they will become one flock, with one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it back. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it back. This commandment I received from My Father.””
‭‭John‬ ‭10‬:‭11‬-‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 10:11-18 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep a | New American Standard Bible - NAS

“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep a

bible.com

The one who snatches the sheep is the wolf but He will never allow the wolf to snatch His sheep. He will lay down His life for them. The present apostates might be part of the ones that are not yet in His flock but will at some time listen to His voice. His redemptive work is not yet finished.

Apostates profess faith, but do not possess saving faith.

Goats don't become sheep, and sheep don't become goats, right?

 

[Hentenza]

Apostates profess faith, but do not possess saving faith.

Goats don't become sheep, and sheep don't become goats, right?

Doubtful. They can’t on their own. But God does as He pleases.

 

[ozso]

I’d disagree. While earlier in the chapter Jesus WAS speaking about false prophets and false teachers, this is a separate paragraph, so can carry a different meaning. I believe he is speaking about anyone who speaks of Jesus superficially, whose words and lives don’t match up together. I believe that would cover someone who was not a true believer (or apostate).

I said false prophets. False Christians. The charlatan TV "preacher". False Christians as in any false christian. Some pose as Christians to become part of a congregation. Even an elder, assistant pastor, pastor or priest to take advantage such as con artists and pedophiles.

Just so I understand, why are you arguing that someone who doesn’t express the hallmarks of a true believer would (or should) be considered part of the flock? I would like to understand where you come to that understanding rather than to try to argue against something that seems, at least to me, so patently wrong.

The types of people Jesus was talking about in Matthew 7:21-23 did bear hallmarks.

 

[ozso]

Apostates profess faith, but do not possess saving faith.

Goats don't become sheep, and sheep don't become goats, right?

Do they? I've always understood apostate to mean someone who's renounced their faith as opposed to professing it.

 

[A New Dawn]

I said false prophets. False Christians. The charlatan TV "preacher". False Christians as in any false christian. Some pose as Christians to become part of a congregation. Even an elder, assistant pastor, pastor or priest to take advantage such as con artists and pedophiles.

[/QUOTE]
I know what you said, and as I said, that verse is from a different paragraph in the original text and not speaking about the people the previous verses were talking about.

The types of people Jesus was talking about in Matthew 7:21-23 did bear hallmarks.

Your response continues to suggest, beyond reason, that anyone who says, at one time, that they believe should automatically be accorded the status of a true believer even when they bear all the hallmarks of not being a true believer - their beliefs are superficial, supported by emotion instead of faith, they fall away easily, there is no bond that a true believer has with the one that gave them life.

 

[ozso]

I know what you said, and as I said, that verse is from a different paragraph in the original text and not speaking about the people the previous verses were talking about.

Matthew 7:15-20 is about true and false prophets. Matthew 7:21-23 is about true and false disciples. Matthew 7 altogether deals with true and false, wise and foolish.

Your response continues to suggest, beyond reason, that anyone who says, at one time, that they believe should automatically be accorded the status of a true believer even when they bear all the hallmarks of not being a true believer - their beliefs are superficial, supported by emotion instead of faith, they fall away easily, there is no bond that a true believer has with the one that gave them life.

I was arguing that certain verses such as John 10:27-28 'once saved always saved' proponents apply to apostates, are not applicable to apostasy and don't really support the doctrine of OSAS. In Matthew 7:21-23 false disciples bore hallmarks of being true disciples (prophesying in Jesus name and in Jesus' name drove out demons and in Jesus' name performed many miracles) but they were just putting on a show rather than being true disciples.

 

[fhansen]

What about absolute trust? Rather than "I know that I'm saved because I..." it's "I know that I'm saved because I have absolute trust in God to save me". Would the latter case of total dependence on God to save and total trust in Hijm to save, come out as rash or in any way prideful? Is the stance of not being absolutely certain an act of not absolutely trusting God to save you?

Trust in God is essential of course. Over-trust or confidence in ourselves, including in our faith (fiduciary faith), not so good. In any case, there's the necessity for a reciprocal response to the love and mercy that God has shown us, and if it's lacking we should be concerned. So consider, for example:

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:14-15

 

[fhansen]

The apostate was never in the herd. The parable of the sower explains this concept.

““Listen then to the parable of the sower. When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one sown with seed beside the road. The one sown with seed on the rocky places, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution occurs because of the word, immediately he falls away. And the one sown with seed among the thorns, this is the one who hears the word, and the anxiety of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. But the one sown with seed on the good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces, some a hundred, some sixty, and some thirty times as much.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭18‬-‭23‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Matthew 13:19-23 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one sown with seed beside the road. The one sown | New American Standard Bible -

When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one sown with seed beside the road. The one sown

bible.com

Apostasy is to leave a religion or group or belief that one once adhered to, so the second instance seems closer to me to describing an apostate. Either way, anyone here in this dicussion can still prove to be poor soil. Those who, by and in conjunction with the Holy Spirit, persist in striving, making effort, picking up their cross and following daily, investing their talents, etc will produce good fruit, overcome sin, etc.

 

[fhansen]

Both the NT and the dictionary are pretty clear on their meanings

Yes, the NT speaks of salvation in all three tenses: was saved, being saved, will be saved, and also something to be worked out. In any case eternal life is a gift: Adam and Eve were intended to live forever, in fact, and earned their death by their sin. Any gift can be rejected, thrown back out.

 

[fhansen]

So one can be right when he knows.

Full and perfect knowledge comes in the next life.

So the confirmed ones were correct, and it is they to whom the Scripture refers (post #102).

Sure, if He confirms your presumptions, you can say you were right!

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes, the NT speaks of salvation in all three tenses: was saved, being saved, will be saved, and also something to be worked out. In any case eternal life is a gift: Adam and Eve were intended to live forever, in fact, and earned their death by their sin. Any gift can be rejected, thrown back out.

And then Christ our True God, the last Adam, came to rescue them, and others in the Harrowing of Hell (for indeed, Adam and Eve did repent) according to the Canons of the Resurrection found in the Octoechos, which is the primary hymnal of the Byzantine Rite liturgy used by sui juris Eastern Catholics of the Byzantine Rite such as Melkites, Ruthenians, Italo-Albanians, and the UGCC, and also by the Eastern Orthodox.

 

[fhansen]

Paul was talking to the church, not the Jews. Therefore he was speaking about any works we, as the church, need to do.

Paul speaks of the inability of works of the law to justify throughout his letters, most notably in Galatians and Romans where those addressed were both Jews and Gentiles. This is simply a guiding principle throughout the new testament, in fact, that man needs something more, man needs God, the branch grafted into the Vine, in order to become who he was created to be.

 

[ozso]

Trust in God is essential of course. Over-trust or confidence in ourselves, including in our faith (fiduciary faith), not so good. In any case, there's the necessity for a reciprocal response to the love and mercy that God has shown us, and if it's lacking we should be concerned. So consider, for example:

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:14-15

Yes trusting in ourselves contradicts putting full trust in God. We should examine ourselves and confess our sin and shortcomings in the desire and hope of overcoming through the grace of God, because that's what God wants. And God tells us how you can "know that you have eternal life" 1 John 5:13.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes trusting in ourselves contradicts putting full trust in God. We should examine ourselves and confess our sin and shortcomings in the desire and hope of overcoming through the grace of God, because that's what God wants. And God tells us how you can "know that you have eternal life" 1 John 5:13.

How do you reconcile your theological opinion with what is written in the Epistle of St. James?

 

[ozso]

How do you reconcile your theological opinion with what is written in the Epistle of St. James?

You're going to have to explain how my theological opinion is contrary to the Epistle of St. James for me to be able to answer that.

 

[fhansen]

Yes trusting in ourselves contradicts putting full trust in God. We should examine ourselves and confess our sin and shortcomings in the desire and hope of overcoming through the grace of God, because that's what God wants. And God tells us how you can "know that you have eternal life" 1 John 5:13.

Yes, as long as we understand what faith entails, what it means to be a believer, to be “born of God”, to be “children of God”, IOW: 1 John 3:9-10. Also James 2:22-24.

 

[A New Dawn]

I was arguing that certain verses such as John 10:27-28 'once saved always saved' proponents apply to apostates, are not applicable to apostasy and don't really support the doctrine of OSAS. In Matthew 7:21-23 false disciples bore hallmarks of being true disciples (prophesying in Jesus name and in Jesus' name drove out demons and in Jesus' name performed many miracles) but they were just putting on a show rather than being true disciples.

Why do you separate apostates from unbelievers? Apostates ARE unbelievers. The fact that they thought, maybe, that they believed for a little while but then decided they didn’t doesn’t make them believers. True believers, by virtue of their redeemed nature agree with God about sin and repentance and WANT to live in a right relationship with God.

Just because someone said they did something in Jesus name doesn’t mean they are believers if their actions belie that assertion. I am pretty sure, in that verse where Jesus said He never knew them, we can trust Jesus to mean just that.

 

[A New Dawn]

Paul speaks of the inability of works of the law to justify throughout his letters, most notably in Galatians and Romans where those addressed were both Jews and Gentiles. This is simply a guiding principle throughout the new testament, in fact, that man needs something more, man needs God, the branch grafted into the Vine, in order to become who he was created to be.

Why would Paul need to speak to the gentile church about the inability of the works of the law to justify them. As gentiles they already don’t believe in the works of the law.

 

[fhansen]

Why do you separate apostates from unbelievers? Apostates ARE unbelievers. The fact that they thought, maybe, that they believed for a little while but then decided they didn’t doesn’t make them believers. True believers, by virtue of their redeemed nature agree with God about sin and repentance and WANT to live in a right relationship with God.

Yes, a long as they remain in Him. John 15:5-6, Rom 11:20-23

 

[ozso]

Why do you separate apostates from unbelievers? Apostates ARE unbelievers. The fact that they thought, maybe, that they believed for a little while but then decided they didn’t doesn’t make them believers. True believers, by virtue of their redeemed nature agree with God about sin and repentance and WANT to live in a right relationship with God.

In the discussion I was having the argument was if someone is saved they stay saved even if later on they become an atheist. That is what I was addressing. I wasn't even arguing for or against it. I was just arguing that a couple of standard proof texts for OSAS don't really support the doctrine in my opinion.