Christian "Apostasy" =unpardonable sin doctrine supposed to learn at young age

ozso · Monday at 8:13 AM

A New Dawn said:
Why would Paul need to speak to the gentile church about the inability of the works of the law to justify them. As gentiles they already don’t believe in the works of the law.

Because Judaizers were telling them differently.

A New Dawn · Monday at 8:14 AM

ozso said:
In the discussion I was having the argument was if someone is saved they stay saved even if later on they become an atheist. That is what I was addressing. I wasn't even arguing for or against it. I was just arguing that a couple of standard proof texts for OSAS don't really support the doctrine in my opinion.

OSAS operates on the understanding that you are speaking about true believers. People can claim to be believers right up to the moment they stop believing, but that act of turning away demonstrates that they were never true believers. Again, that is why the P in TULIP is such an important part of the puzzle.

ozso · Monday at 8:19 AM

fhansen said:
Yes, as long as we understand what faith entails, what it means to be a believer, to be “born of God”, to be “children of God”, IOW: 1 John 3:9-10. Also James 2:22-24.

1 John covers what having eternal life consists of. Which is why the summation is:

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life". 1 John 5:13.

In other words if you meet the requirements written of in 1 John, John says that you can know that you have eternal life.

Whoever has a disagreement with that, will have to take it up with St. John.

A New Dawn · Monday at 8:27 AM

ozso said:
Because Judaizers were telling them differently.

So Paul and the other NT writers chose to make something that was a 1st century problem into one of the major focuses on the gospel? What about other Christian churches that have popped up over time where works are the basis, or part of the basis, for their salvation theology?

ozso · Monday at 8:30 AM

A New Dawn said:
OSAS operates on the understanding that you are speaking about true believers. People can claim to be believers right up to the moment they stop believing, but that act of turning away demonstrates that they were never true believers. Again, that is why the P in TULIP is such an important part of the puzzle.

The Baptist I was debating with doesn't see it that way, and that's whom I was addressing.

I agree with you that salvation consists of perseverance.

ozso · Monday at 8:43 AM

A New Dawn said:
So Paul and the other NT writers chose to make something that was a 1st century problem into one of the major focuses on the gospel? What about other Christian churches that have popped up over time where works are the basis, or part of the basis, for their salvation theology?

Paul and the other NT writers were guided by the Holy Spirit, who knew it was a problem that wasn't going to be limited to the 1st century. While Paul was of course writing letters to the 1st century churches, what he wrote is timeless. It's as applicable now as it was then.

A New Dawn · Monday at 8:46 AM

ozso said:
Paul and the other NT writers were guided by the Holy Spirit, who knew it was a problem that wasn't going to be limited to the 1st century. While Paul was of course writing letters to the 1st century churches, what he wrote is timeless. It's as applicable now as it was then.

So, to respond as you did, I was speaking to another member who seems to have a different outlook. I agree with you here.

fhansen · Monday at 8:57 AM

ozso said:
1 John covers what having eternal life consists of. Which is why the summation is:

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life". 1 John 5:13.

In other words if you meet the requirements written of in 1 John, John says that you can know that you have eternal life.

Whoever has a disagreement with that, will have to take it up with St. John.

True enough. And other places as well in Scripture keep us understanding that there's no salvation without good fruit.

ozso · Monday at 9:25 AM

fhansen said:
True enough. And other places as well in Scripture keep us understanding that there's no salvation without good fruit.

In my opinion bearing good fruit is what salvation is all about.

ozso · Monday at 9:30 AM

A New Dawn said:
So, to respond as you did, I was speaking to another member who seems to have a different outlook. I agree with you here.

It's okay to respond to a question to another member. But you were basically asking me why I was saying certain things, so I had to explain why.

fhansen · Monday at 9:40 AM

fhansen said:
True enough. And other places as well in Scripture keep us understanding that there's no salvation without good fruit.

I agree, yes, in large part. And we can also fail to remain in Him in which case we will fail to produce good fruit and compromise our saved status.

ozso · Monday at 11:33 AM

fhansen said:
I agree, yes, in large part. And we can also fail to remain in Him in which case we will fail to produce good fruit and compromise our saved status.

In my opinion saved means a lot more than just going to heaven after you die. Salvation is the good fruits of our lives here and now. The Old Testament practically says nothing about us going to heaven or hell, but it says a lot about salvation. Especially in the Psalms. Abraham, Moses, and the Prophets were totally committed to God without any real mention of afterlife rewards. In my opinion we should love the Lord with all of our heart, soul and mind even if there wasn't an afterlife.

fhansen · Monday at 12:03 PM

ozso said:
In my opinion saved means a lot more than just going to heaven after you die. Salvation is the good fruits of our lives here and now. The Old Testament practically says nothing about us going to heaven or hell, but it says a lot about salvation. Especially in the Psalms. Abraham, Moses, and the Prophets were totally committed to God without any real mention of afterlife rewards. In my opinion we should love the Lord with all of our heart, soul and mind even if there wasn't an afterlife.

All right, but I'm not sure what salvation even means apart from eternal life. You are right, the concept was vague in the Old testament, and blessings for living according to God's will had more to do with peace and prosperity in the present life.

But as I see it, one of the most important messages of our faith is that, in order to know who God truly is and how trustworthy He truly is and how worthy of our love He truly is, the problem of death must be addressed and it was, in very definitive terms by Jesus and His sacrificial death and resurrection. In fact, everything He said and did was a revelation of who God is, of His heart, of His will, for man.

Jesus laid down his life in order that He might raise it back up, dramatically resolving the prospect of non-existence that looms over our lives and threatens to render them meaningless.

And salvation does mean a lot more than going to heaven BTW, especially considering the fact that we hardly know what that means anyway. In any case, salvation means to fulill our very created purpose as we draw near to God and nearer and nearer to His own likeness, as we become perfected in love of Him and neighbor to put it another way. This is our purpose, our telos, our wholeness, our integrity and happiness, our raison d'etre.

Clare73 · Monday at 12:46 PM

ozso said:
Do they? I've always understood apostate to mean someone who's renounced their faith as opposed to professing it.

The apostate's faith was not true faith. . .of the Holy Spirit.
It was counterfeit faith (Mt 7:22-23).

ozso · Monday at 12:53 PM

Clare73 said:
The apostate's faith was not true faith. . .of the Holy Spirit.
It was counterfeit faith (Mt 7:22-23).

They're usually referred to as false disciples rather than apostates. An apostate by definition wouldn't be doing anything in the name of Jesus.

Clare73 · Monday at 2:47 PM

fhansen said:
Yes, the NT speaks of salvation in all three tenses: was saved, being saved, will be saved, and also something to be worked out. In any case eternal life is a gift: Adam and Eve were intended to live forever, in fact, and earned their death by their sin. Any gift can be rejected, thrown back out.

Relevance to "enlightening, tasting"?

Clare73 · Monday at 2:50 PM

fhansen said:
The point is that He alone, knows with perfect certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not. Then you'll know, as well, if you've been right or wrong.

Seems Paul disagrees with you (Ro 8:16).

Having received his doctrine in heaven from Jesus (2 Co 12:1-8, Gal 11-12), I'm sure you'll understand if I go with Paul.

Clare73 · Monday at 3:05 PM

ozso said:
They're usually referred to as false disciples rather than apostates. An apostate by definition wouldn't be doing anything in the name of Jesus.

Apostates, by definition, once believed. . .

fhansen · Monday at 4:27 PM

Clare73 said:
Relevance to "enlightening, tasting"?

"Enlightening and tasting", of the heavenly gift, are revelation: gifts of the Spirit, as is escaping the pollution oif the world through the knowlegde of Christ. The person is informed and moved by God and yet not compelled to remain there, in Him. Similarly "true faith" can still be denied as the will of man makes his choice between conflicting values:

Clare73 said:
The apostate's faith was not true faith. . .of the Holy Spirit.
It was counterfeit faith (Mt 7:22-23).

Here's an example:
"Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved human praise more than praise from God." John 12:42-43

ozso · Monday at 4:33 PM

Clare73 said:
Apostates, by definition, once believed. . .

I know apostates who thoroughly believed and bore fruit. One actually repented and came back.

Christian "Apostasy" =unpardonable sin doctrine supposed to learn at young age

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Bind my wandering heart to thee!

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Bind my wandering heart to thee!

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Bind my wandering heart to thee!

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Blood-bought

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Blood-bought

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