6,000 Years?

trophy33 said:

The Septuagint:
And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it he ceased from all his works which God began to do.

I do not read Hebrew, but when I look at interlinear, I do not even see any "created and made" as a phrase, there. I am not sure where the KJV or NASB got it from.

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Biblehub will show you a word for word translation.

trophy33 said:

I know this lecture of his.

However, he is just talking about what the words mean, I did not find an explanation why would the NASB or the KJV translated it as a phrase "created and made", maybe it is in some later time, but I did not find it in the video.

Gen 2:3

• וַיְבָרֶךְ (vayvarekh) — "And He blessed"
• אֱלֹהִים (Elohim) — "God"
• אֶת־יֹום (et-yom) — "the day"
• הַשְּׁבִיעִי (hashvi'i) — "the seventh"
• וַיְקַדֵּשׁ (vayqaddesh) — "and He sanctified" or "made holy"
• אֹתוֹ (oto) — "it"
• כִּי (ki) — "because"
• בוֹ (bo) — "in it"
• שָׁבַת (shavat) — "He rested"
• מִכָּל־ (mikkol) — "from all"
• מְלַאכְתּוֹ (melakhto) — "His work"
• אֲשֶׁר (asher) — "which"
• בָּרָא (bara) — "He created"
• אֱלֹהִים (Elohim) — "God"
• לַעֲשׂוֹת (la'asot) — "to do" or "to make"

bara is about the past, "created"
la'asot is infinitive

And there is no "and" between the words "bara" and "la'asot".

The translation "which God created to do" seems to be the correct one, even though such phrase sounds nonsensical in modern European languages. That is probably why all English translations are just guessing how to translate it and differ so much.

And maybe there is some textual corruption and the text originally read "which God began to do" as the older LXX translates.

In any case, the argumentation of @BNR32FAN falls apart both grammatically and semantically.

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What you’re said is that Genesis has nothing to do with God creating anything EXNIHILO.

Job 33:6 said:

The waters do not need to be above the earth or below the heavens to exist. So I'm not sure what you mean. And I'll repeat, Genesis describes the creation of things that are already there (giving form to that which was formless and filling that which was empty).

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Genesis 2:4 specifically says that on the seventh day God rested FROM ALL HIS WORK. We know that the earth hadn’t always existed because several verses tell us that.

“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1‬:‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17‬:‭24‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

God created the earth from nothing.

“All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

““Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.””
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4‬:‭11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This is why I keep saying that your interpretation of Genesis only works in isolation from the rest of scripture. Everything that exists was brought into existence by God which is included in ALL HIS WORK that He rested from on the seventh day in Genesis 2:3. Hence created exnihilo and made exmateria. Your interpretation isn’t including all of the information given to us in scripture, it’s isolating the information given to us in the rest of scripture from Genesis.

BNR32FAN said:

What you’re said is that Genesis has nothing to do with God creating anything EXNIHILO.

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Apples and oranges.

Ex nihilo is the Latin/Roman Christian philosophical concept from the 3rd century AD. Genesis was composed around the 8th century BC in Babylonia.

Genesis does not know about any ex nihilo. Forcing it retrospectively into Genesis is anachronism.

BNR32FAN said:

Now you’re ignoring the phrase “ALL HIS WORK”. This encompasses both exnihilo and exmateria.

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How did you reach that conclusion? The Bible doesn't say anything like that.

davetaff said:

What God created before the flood was destroyed in the flood the first Adam died so God began a new creation of mankind in his image.

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This just demands a new question. What is the scientific evidence of a global flood? or at least a flood thst persisted to all of the inhabited places of earth.

trophy33 said:

The Septuagint:
And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it he ceased from all his works which God began to do.

I do not read Hebrew, but when I look at interlinear, I do not even see any "created and made" as a phrase, there. I am not sure where the KJV or NASB got it from.

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The creation account can be read as a salvation metaphor. Unformed darkness where light is spoken into and starts a process ending in rest. That darkness was once us, and light was spoken into us and that transformation process is in us. The NT calls this the new creation.

With sabbath it comes upon the onset of completed work. God does not need to physically rest, what he rested from was his work which means he ceased working and he didn't stop working because he was tired he stopped because he was finished.

So complete work is intrinsic to the Sabbath and there can be no rest without a completed work. Which is more salvation through Christ metaphors (the passage is packed full of them)

DamianWarS said:

The creation account can be read as a salvation metaphor. Unformed darkness where light is spoken into and starts a process ending in rest. That darkness was once us, and light was spoken into us and that transformation process is in us. The NT calls this the new creation.

With sabbath it comes upon the onset of completed work. God does not need to physically rest, what he rested from was his work which means he ceased working and he didn't stop working because he was tired he stopped because he was finished.

So complete work is intrinsic to the Sabbath and there can be no rest without a completed work. Which is more salvation through Christ metaphors (the passage is packed full of them)

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HI
the fathers sabbath rest is Christs millennial reign this creation began when Noah stepped of the ark and we are in the sixth day of this creation towards the end I would think.
the seventh day awaits us the fathers sabbath rest Christs millennial reign lets hope and pray we enter into it the father can rest because he has put everything into

DamianWarS said:

The creation account can be read as a salvation metaphor. Unformed darkness where light is spoken into and starts a process ending in rest. That darkness was once us, and light was spoken into us and that transformation process is in us. The NT calls this the new creation.

With sabbath it comes upon the onset of completed work. God does not need to physically rest, what he rested from was his work which means he ceased working and he didn't stop working because he was tired he stopped because he was finished.

So complete work is intrinsic to the Sabbath and there can be no rest without a completed work. Which is more salvation through Christ metaphors (the passage is packed full of them)

Click to expand...

Hi
The fathers sabbath rest is Christs millennial reign it is the seventh day of this creation which began when Noah stepped of the ark it would take 7 days to complete each day 1000 years long we are now towards the end of the 6th day awaiting the return of Christ to gather together all believers to present them to the father and begin his Millennial reign.

Love and Peace
Dave

davetaff said:

HI
the fathers sabbath rest is Christs millennial reign this creation began when Noah stepped of the ark and we are in the sixth day of this creation towards the end I would think.
the seventh day awaits us the fathers sabbath rest Christs millennial reign lets hope and pray we enter into it the father can rest because he has put everything into

Hi
The fathers sabbath rest is Christs millennial reign it is the seventh day of this creation which began when Noah stepped of the ark it would take 7 days to complete each day 1000 years long we are now towards the end of the 6th day awaiting the return of Christ to gather together all believers to present them to the father and begin his Millennial reign.

Love and Peace
Dave

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The creation account can be multiple unfolding meanings. It can point to the millennial reign but I wouldn't get too fixated on the 1000 years is a day and a day 1000 years to God. Broadly however I think the millennial reign will be on a symbolic 7th day, but I don't that this demands exactly 7000 years to pass and the passing from one day to the next may have have different mechanisms at work or durations.

What the creation account shows is a new beginning trope from a point of despair or even death to a rising in new life. Which is a central theme throughout the bible and salvation. Light into darkness, baptism is another but also prophetic to Christ, the resurrection, new heaven and earth, salvation, etc.... I think what the creation account shows us is a cycle framework with constant rebirth or life from death moments.

We might be at the closing of the last day now. What Christ says in Mat 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come" what Christ identifies is a work that needs to be accomplished and when complete will mark his coming. In creation the Sabbath is ushered in by completed work. We are charged with spreading the gospel far and wide, when this work is complete, as it is with creation, perhaps the 7th day/millennial reign will be ushered in.

Job 33:6 said:

How did you reach that conclusion? The Bible doesn't say anything like that.

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“Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

BNR32FAN said:

“Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

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Yes, the work described in the 6 days of Genesis. But the text says nothing about that work being ex nihilo.

Job 33:6 said:

Yes, the work described in the 6 days of Genesis. But the text says nothing about that work being ex nihilo.

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So then you’re saying that God didn’t create everything.

BNR32FAN said:

So then you’re saying that God didn’t create everything.

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No I'm not. I'm just saying that the work He did in Genesis isn't ex nihilo.

Job 33:6 said:

No I'm not. I'm just saying that the work He did in Genesis isn't ex nihilo.

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So you’re saying that He did work before the first day?

BNR32FAN said:

So you’re saying that He did work before the first day?

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Not described in Genesis. But yes, God was doing things before Genesis 1:1, though they need not even be described as "work". God has eternity past to do things. He is not limited strictly to what Genesis describes.

trophy33 said:

This is the teaching of the Seventh Day Adventists and I do not agree with it. Genesis is not a literal history, namely first chapters are mythological, it was written as a prologue to the Law and is set aside with the rest of the Law.

And the Universe is not 6,000 years old, it is basically impossible, if physical evidence counts for something.

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You are of course free to believe however and whatever you wish. Your stance though, is completely extra biblical. Neither supported or even suggested anywhere in scripture at all. To the contrary though, denied by the rest of the testimony of scripture which either directly supports that which you are denying, or obviously and simply takes it for granted that the genesis creation account is an authentic historical account.

The presumptions of theoretical science concerning the unobservable past, are not physical evidence. They are simply theoretical presumptions, concerning an unobservable past. The best guesses of the imaginations of men regarding that which was not and cannot be observed, and therefore known for certain. All of which enters into the realms of the different faiths of men, as the basis for their predetermined course of study, persuit, observation, and speculative reasoning of their conclusions.

The physical evidence is the same for everyone. One's world view and or faith will determine which road they travel unto conclusions concerning the physical evidence, based upon that world view or faith. This concerning the unknown. Which deep timers and evolutionists are infamous for misrepresenting as established scientific fact. Even though they continuously prove many of their previous theories which they once claimed were facts, wrong over and again. Each time declaring and promoting thier latest modified theories as the present supposed established facts.

trophy33 said:

Present your argument in one carefully considered sentence.

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No. If I did not prefer in depth study and debate, I wouldn't waste time on message boards which facilitate such. I would just get on my phone and one liner text people everywhere, with shallow, surface, and likely little effect.

Amo2 said:

No. If I did not prefer in depth study and debate, I wouldn't waste time on message boards which facilitate such. I would just get on my phone and one liner text people everywhere, with shallow, surface, and likely little effect.

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If you are too lazy to formulate your point well, I am too lazy to read it and to react to it.

Amo2 said:

You are of course free to believe however and whatever you wish. Your stance though, is completely extra biblical. Neither supported or even suggested anywhere in scripture at all. To the contrary though, denied by the rest of the testimony of scripture which either directly supports that which you are denying, or obviously and simply takes it for granted that the genesis creation account is an authentic historical account.

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Therefore? It is quite logical that new discoveries will not be mentioned in the Bible written at least 2,000 years ago.

People in the iron/bronze age did not know that the earth is not flat, that there is no firmament, that there is a vast space, that we live on a planet, that a tower cannot literally reach the heavens, that the Earth is not thousands of years old, that there are no dragons in the seas, that the sun, stars and moon are not just lights (or gods) revolving around the Earth, that organisms evolve in time etc.