6,000 Years?

[trophy33]

It is the belief and teaching of a great many more people than just SDA's, has been believed by a majority of bible believers throughout history, and is what holy scripture itself supports and backs up from one end to the other. What you believe is found nowhere in scripture at all. Not even a hint of any such thing. It must be imposed upon the scriptures, which themselves backup the historical narrative of Genesis 1 from one end to the other. Please do reveal any hint of deep time evolution theory from the scriptures themselves to me if you can, without your own imposed theoretical or speculative opinions added. Thank you.

The majority of Christians accept that Genesis, namely its first chapters, is not a literal history. It is not even debated among mainstream scholars.

If you are interested, start here:

Book of Genesis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Amo2]

The majority of Christians accept that Genesis, namely its first chapters, is not a literal history. It is not even debated among mainstream scholars.

If you are interested, start here:

Book of Genesis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It is and has been a rare occasion, when a majority have embraced the truths of holy scripture. God's chosen have never been a majority on this earth, and even rarely among professed believers. The bible is filled with historical accounts of this truth. A majority therefore of course, the truth does not equal.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I say again, I will not be going to wikipedia to seek out the truths of holy scripture. I seek out the Holy Spirit of God through prayer, to rightly divide the word of God, which is the highest standard of truth for my life.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Place your faith in wikipedia if you wish. I bow the knee to the highest claims of the words above from holy scripture. Not the many and varying speculations of humanity over and above it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It will not help you in any way, though. It still does not work.


Show me a verse "And God said "let there be waters". Primordial waters are the matter God created from, according to Genesis 1. If you want to know why:

Cosmic ocean - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So water existed before the heavens and the earth? It has existed as long as God has existed?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well, there is a difference between the time that I start riding a bike and the time it takes me to ride a bike to the store. What bothers you about this?

So the bike just always existed then? God showed up and there it was?

 

[Job 33:6]

So the bike just always existed then? God showed up and there it was?

In Genesis, the text simply doesn't say where the bike came from or if it always existed.

It doesn't say "God showed up" either. Rather the story is about when God began to create. So God is there. It's about His actions.

To stick with the bike analogy, if I was soaking wet with my heart racing, and I said to you: "when I began to ride my bike to the store, it was storming outside and I had to avoid potholes and swerving cars in the rain! etc."

I can still tell you an important story about what I did, without needing to talk about who manufactured my bike or where I bought it etc.

Explaining who manufactured my bike, when that happened, how it was done, and when/where I bought it may actually be a distraction from the more important story about how I rode through a storm to get to the store.

And in most circumstances, you wouldn't interrupt my adventurous and intense story of surviving the storm by saying "well where did you purchase your bike and at what manufacturing facility was it built?"

 

[trophy33]

So water existed before the heavens and the earth? It has existed as long as God has existed?

In the ancient myths, yes. Heavens and earth were created from those waters, by separating them, according to the mythological cosmology (including Genesis 1).

Scientifically - no, of course.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In the ancient myths, yes. Heavens and earth were created from those waters, by separating them, according to the mythological cosmology (including Genesis 1).

Scientifically - no, of course.

Where was the water before the heavens and the earth were created?

 

[trophy33]

Where was the water before the heavens and the earth were created?

I think you still do not understand that the primordial waters is a mythological concept. The universe was not created from waters in reality. So why do you ask where were the waters?

 

[Job 33:6]

Where was the water before the heavens and the earth were created?

Im not sure there is a "where" they were. So much as it is a matter of them simply being.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think you still do not understand that the primordial waters is a mythological concept. The universe was not created from waters in reality. So why do you ask where were the waters?

Because you claim that the waters were not created. So if they weren’t created then they must’ve existed before the heavens and the earth which were created. So either the waters were created when the heavens and the earth were created or they must’ve existed somewhere before the heavens and the earth. But if there were no heavens and earth where could the water possibly exist?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Im not sure there is a "where" they were. So much as it is a matter of them simply being.

So the water was omnipresent?

 

[Job 33:6]

So the water was omnipresent?

I wouldn't say that. That's more a modernist philosophical term. Additionally, the spirit hovered over the face of the waters. So at least in some sense they had limits.

 

[Job 33:6]

Because you claim that the waters were not created. So if they weren’t created then they must’ve existed before the heavens and the earth which were created. So either the waters were created when the heavens and the earth were created or they must’ve existed somewhere before the heavens and the earth. But if there were no heavens and earth where could the water possibly exist?

In Genesis, the waters were present before the heavens and the earth were created, ex materia and/or functionally. But the text doesn't say which existed first in an ex nihilo sense.

The text doesn't say how long the heavens and earth existed before they were created, or how long they were formless and empty before being given form (days 1-3) and filled up (days 4-6).

 

[2PhiloVoid]

In Genesis, the waters were present before the heavens and the earth were created, ex materia and/or functionally. But the text doesn't say which existed first in an ex nihilo sense.

The text doesn't say how long the heavens and earth existed before they were created, or how long they were formless and empty before being given form (days 1-3) and filled up (days 4-6).

I'd think that if it's ambiguous, then it's best to not assume either way really when attempting to translate the first verse in juxtaposition to verses two and three. And just let it ride from that and focus more on the polemical contrast which exists between the Hebrew text and the extant Mesopotamian, Egyptian and Ugaritic creation texts for further clarity.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I wouldn't say that. That's more a modernist philosophical term. Additionally, the spirit hovered over the face of the waters. So at least in some sense they had limits.

Yeah that was after the earth was created because of the whole resting on the 7th day from everything He created and made. Kind of puts a damper on the idea that He created the heavens and the earth before the first day.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In Genesis, the waters were present before the heavens and the earth were created, ex materia and/or functionally. But the text doesn't say which existed first in an ex nihilo sense.

The text doesn't say how long the heavens and earth existed before they were created, or how long they were formless and empty before being given form (days 1-3) and filled up (days 4-6).

That’s only if you isolate the rest of scripture from Genesis 1. If you only look at Genesis 1 then you can come to that conclusion but when you get to Genesis 2 and read that He rested from EVERYTHING HE CREATED AND MADE on the 7th day, that kind of shoots down you’re interpretation of Genesis 1:1.

 

[Job 33:6]

I'd think that if it's ambiguous, then it's best to not assume either way really when attempting to translate the first verse in juxtaposition to verses two and three. And just let it ride from that and focus more on the polemical contrast which exists between the Hebrew text and the extant Mesopotamian, Egyptian and Ugaritic creation texts for further clarity.

I prefer the construct view, and to view the polemic in a theological, rather than a cosmological sense. Ex nihilo creation seems anachronistic to me.

Plus, I think Genesis flows better with the construct translation. Because then, The creation occurs in the six days of Genesis, not in verse 1:1 and then a second time in 6 days.

Plus it follows the patterns throughout Genesis where God speaks, every creation day begins with God speaking, and God said. And that fits better with God beginning on verse 3, not verse 1.

And this literary introduction also matches Genesis chapter 2. Verses 4-7. Where we have this introduction of the tohu wa bohu, no plant, no life, no rain etc.

Then after the introduction, then God begins.

Genesis 2:4-7 NASB1995
[4] This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven. [5] Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. [6] But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. [7] Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

 

[trophy33]

Because you claim that the waters were not created. So if they weren’t created then they must’ve existed before the heavens and the earth which were created. So either the waters were created when the heavens and the earth were created or they must’ve existed somewhere before the heavens and the earth. But if there were no heavens and earth where could the water possibly exist?

Mythological concepts do not exist in any physical place. Myths were only attempts of ancient cultures to make some sense of the world, with the use of phenomena they could experience or think of (like waters, abyss, fire, clouds, gardens, fruit, dust, rivers, animals like serpents or eagles or even fictional like dragons,...) and gods.

Only later philosophy brought abstract concepts like for example "chaos" instead of waters or instead of abyss. Or logos, cosmos. That is why the creation prologue in John 1 is so different from Gen 1 - the cultures were different and genres changed too - philosophy (J1) vs mythos (G1).

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I prefer the construct view, and to view the polemic in a theological, rather than a cosmological sense. Ex nihilo creation seems anachronistic to me.

Plus, I think Genesis flows better with the construct translation. Because then, The creation occurs in the six days of Genesis, not in verse 1:1 and then a second time in 6 days.

Plus it follows the patterns throughout Genesis where God speaks, every creation day begins with God speaking, and God said. And that fits better with God beginning on verse 3, not verse 1.

And this literary introduction also matches Genesis chapter 2. Verses 4-7. Where we have this introduction of the tohu wa bohu, no plant, no life, no rain etc.

Then after the introduction, then God begins.

Genesis 2:4-7 NASB1995
[4] This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven. [5] Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. [6] But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. [7] Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Ah, I see. It almost sounds like you have a higher view of Genesis than I do. By contrast, I lean toward the Ancient Cosmogony (not Cosmology) view.

I have too many historical questions about the first 11 chapters of Genesis to assume too much about it. This isn't to say that my view doesn't reflect a similar understanding of it as your own. I think it does, but we might differ on some of the smaller details.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In Genesis, the waters were present before the heavens and the earth were created, ex materia and/or functionally. But the text doesn't say which existed first in an ex nihilo sense.

Where could the waters possibly exist if there are no heavens or earth? If there was no place for water to exist then one would have to conclude that the waters had to have been created after the heavens and the earth.