Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

keras · Apr 17, 2025

Douggg said:
I agree.

Your support is a very slender reed.
1 Thess 4:16...first the Christian dead will rise.... does not say 'all'. From Revelation 20:4-5, we know it means only the martyrs of the GT.

So your agreement with the idea of all believers, living and dead, being at the Bema Judgment, is a contradiction of plainly stated scripture.

Ed Parenteau · Apr 17, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Rev 20:5 (ESV): The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. …

Those are “the dead” who are spoken of in derogatory terms, as above: “The rest of the dead” are derogatory terms. Why? Those are the dead who died in sin. They are disrespected in every verse they are spoken of. They and only they are judged at the Great White Throne of Judgment, after the Millennial Kingdom

First of all brothers, I'm going to carpal tunnel surgery tomorrow and would appreciate prayers for its success. I'll be out of commission for awhile and won't be able to post.
As to your post, I can't agree with you. The resurrection is only called one thing and that's the "resurrection of the dead" Which group of verse 4 are you in? those given the authority to judge? those beheaded? or those not worshipping the beast or taking it's mark? If you're not in one of those groups listed, then you must be one of the rest. I on the other hand believe I'm in the following group.
Rev 14:And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

Notice, they came to life and reigned which is in the past tense, whereas verse 5 says those will reign in the future tense. I see them as the resurrection to life as in John 5:23 and then the resurrection on the last day to eternal life John 5:25. This also corresponds to the two ages in which Christ is eternally ruling from the right hand of the Father. Ephesians 1:18-23

Rev 20: 4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Anyway, God bless for now.

Jeffrey Bowden · Apr 18, 2025

keras said:
Does this truth say when it will take place?
No, we find that out from Revelation 20:11-15, AFTER the Millennium. I know that says God is the judge, but it will be Jesus who opens the Book of Life
Your peculiar ideas and twisted interpretations, leave you without any support, even from other rapture believers. You need to step back and really become sure of what is Truth and what is guesswork.

2 Tim 4:8 (NIV): Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.

The Judgment Seat of Christ occurs in a joyous and loving environment, in Heaven, on that day of the pre-Trib rapture.

Rev 20:11-15 (NIV): Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

The environment for the GWTJ is isolation from Heaven and complete terror.

Jeffrey Bowden · Apr 18, 2025

Ed Parenteau said:
First of all brothers, I'm going to carpal tunnel surgery tomorrow and would appreciate prayers for its success. I'll be out of commission for awhile and won't be able to post.
As to your post, I can't agree with you. The resurrection is only called one thing and that's the "resurrection of the dead" Which group of verse 4 are you in? those given the authority to judge? those beheaded? or those not worshipping the beast or taking it's mark? If you're not in one of those groups listed, then you must be one of the rest. I on the other hand believe I'm in the following group.
Rev 14:And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

Notice, they came to life and reigned which is in the past tense, whereas verse 5 says those will reign in the future tense. I see them as the resurrection to life as in John 5:23 and then the resurrection on the last day to eternal life John 5:25. This also corresponds to the two ages in which Christ is eternally ruling from the right hand of the Father. Ephesians 1:18-23

Rev 20: 4Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Anyway, God bless for now.

Ed, I can't take apart yet the bulk of your message right now, but I have prayed for the success of your surgery. About nine months ago, my wife had a separate surgery on each of her hands. Both surgeries were successes. Although discomfort was present for the first few weeks following each surgery, the healing process each time produced a complete restoration of hand movement. All the best to you, my friend.

Jeffrey Bowden · Apr 18, 2025

keras said:
Your support is a very slender reed.
1 Thess 4:16...first the Christian dead will rise.... does not say 'all'. From Revelation 20:4-5, we know it means only the martyrs of the GT.

So your agreement with the idea of all believers, living and dead, being at the Bema Judgment, is a contradiction of plainly stated scripture.

Keras, here's 1 Th 4:16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

What percentage of the dead in Christ is raised from the dead?

keras · Apr 18, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
What percentage of the dead in Christ is raised from the dead?

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Keras, here's 1 Th 4:16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

What percentage of the dead in Christ is raised from the dead?

ONLY those martyrs murdered during the 3 1/2 year period of world control by the "beast', will be brought back to [mortal] life when Jesus Returns. Which includes the two Witnesses.
ALL the rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over. Rev 20:5

ANY belief other than this, is unscriptural and will not happen.

Jeffrey Bowden · Apr 18, 2025

keras said:
ONLY those martyrs murdered during the 3 1/2 year period of world control by the "beast', will be brought back to [mortal] life when Jesus Returns. Which includes the two Witnesses.
ALL the rest of the dead must wait until the thousand years is over. Rev 20:5

ANY belief other than this, is unscriptural and will not happen.

Keras, you are contradicting the Bible.

In 1 Th 4:16, the dead in Christ (totals 100%) are raised for the pre-Trib rapture. Here’s 1 Th 4:17 (ESV): Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

We meet Jesus in the air of Heaven. We go to Heaven, per the unfulfilled Rev 4:1.

keras · Apr 18, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Keras, you are contradicting the Bible.

I have not. But you, write your own bible; telling God what you want, Like a petulant child.

Jeffrey Bowden said:
We meet Jesus in the air of Heaven. We go to Heaven, per the unfulfilled Rev 4:1.

Wild imaginations and irrational dreams.

Jeffrey Bowden · Apr 23, 2025

keras said:
Your support is a very slender reed.
1 Thess 4:16...first the Christian dead will rise.... does not say 'all'. From Revelation 20:4-5, we know it means only the martyrs of the GT.

So your agreement with the idea of all believers, living and dead, being at the Bema Judgment, is a contradiction of plainly stated scripture.

Keras, “the dead in Christ” are all deceased believers on record before the Trib.

1 Th 4:16-17 occur before the Trib. The GM are killed in the Trib.

Jeffrey Bowden · Apr 23, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Keras, “the dead in Christ” are all deceased believers on record before the Trib.

1 Th 4:16-17 occur before the Trib. The GM are killed in the Trib. The GM enter the Trib as unbelievers. This is proven by Rev 7:16.

Jeffrey Bowden · Apr 24, 2025

You lost the debate. You can’t prove me wrong. The pre-Trib rapture is in the Bible as Rev 4:1.

keras · Apr 24, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
You lost the debate. You can’t prove me wrong. The pre-Trib rapture is in the Bible as Rev 4:1.

As the Lord has locked you into your delusions, nothing I say can change your false beliefs.
People can see how confused and deceived you are by your use of Rev 4:1 as a proof text. That verse and every other Bible verse, says nothing about a rapture to heaven of the Church.

I will never claim to be a winner in this debate, until it's all over and the Lord is finally with us.
Thinking you have won, because I don't want to waste my time on your foolish theory, is crazy.

If you had any sense, you would just keep quiet in you hope to be raptured and not try to convince others, as scripture never actually says such a thing and many scriptures say how we must endure tribulations.

Jeffrey Bowden · Apr 24, 2025

keras said:
As the Lord has locked you into your delusions, nothing I say can change your false beliefs.
People can see how confused and deceived you are by your use of Rev 4:1 as a proof text. That verse and every other Bible verse, says nothing about a rapture to heaven of the Church.

I will never claim to be a winner in this debate, until it's all over and the Lord is finally with us.
Thinking you have won, because I don't want to waste my time on your foolish theory, is crazy.

If you had any sense, you would just keep quiet in you hope to be raptured and not try to convince others, as scripture never actually says such a thing and many scriptures say how we must endure tribulations.

Keras, Rev 4:1 has been proven to be unfulfilled. Rev 4:1-2 contain wording that John intentionally included to signal he was hearing and seeing a supernatural scene for the pertinent chapter of Rev. That proves he never left Patmos when writing Rev 4.

The purpose of Rev 4:1 is therefore the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, for it will not go unfulfilled, and its purpose will fulfill Jesus’ prophetic promise in Rev 3:10 to keep us from the Trib.

keras · Apr 24, 2025

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Keras, Rev 4:1 has been proven to be unfulfilled. Rev 4:1-2 contain wording that John intentionally included to signal he was hearing and seeing a supernatural scene for the pertinent chapter of Rev. That proves he never left Patmos when writing Rev 4.

The purpose of Rev 4:1 is therefore the pre-Trib rapture of the Church, for it will not go unfulfilled, and its purpose will fulfill Jesus’ prophetic promise in Rev 3:10 to keep us from the Trib.

Does anyone ese believe this nonsense?
The sad thing is, you are putting yourself far away from the Will of God. And what is worse; telling God what you want Him to do.

Jeffrey Bowden · Friday at 5:39 AM

keras said:
As the Lord has locked you into your delusions, nothing I say can change your false beliefs.
People can see how confused and deceived you are by your use of Rev 4:1 as a proof text. That verse and every other Bible verse, says nothing about a rapture to heaven of the Church.

I will never claim to be a winner in this debate, until it's all over and the Lord is finally with us.
Thinking you have won, because I don't want to waste my time on your foolish theory, is crazy.

If you had any sense, you would just keep quiet in you hope to be raptured and not try to convince others, as scripture never actually says such a thing and many scriptures say how we must endure tribulations.

Keras, 70% of the Bible pertains to Jews, only.

Matt 24:22 (ESV): And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Matt 24:13 (ESV): But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matt 24:31 (ESV): And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You can’t show me one verse where believers enter the Trib.

The 144k serve as evangelical ministers in the Trib. They facilitate the greatest revival ever seen. The unbelievers who later become the GM enter the Trib as unbelievers as proven by Rev 7:16, where all of the GM were previously subjected to God’s wrath in the Trib. Wrath related to famines begins in Rev 6:8. Wrath related to scorching heat is experienced in Rev 16:8-9. It is the GM who become the martyrs and are later found under the altar (Rev 6:9; Rev 20:4). Rev 6:11 mentions “fellow servants” … who were to be killed as they themselves had been. Those fellow servants are found in Rev 20:4. All of the GM is resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They appear next in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

You can’t show me any believers who enter the Trib. Where are the believers in Rev 6:4, Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:4, Rev 11:10 and Rev 17:2?

Rev 3:10 is a prophecy of the pre-Trib rapture. Jesus said in Rev 3:10 (ESV): … I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

The “trial that is coming on the whole world” is the 7-year Trib featuring 21 judgments of God’s wrath on an unbelieving world (Rev 6-16). Only unbelievers (“those who dwell on the earth”) enter the Trib. You can’t prove otherwise. We believers are raptured to Heaven in Rev 4:1, which will fulfill Jesus’ prophetic promise in Rev 3:10.

Prove me wrong, Keras. Show me your verses that prove Jesus’ wrong in His prophetic promise in Rev 3:10.

keras · Friday at 5:22 PM

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Keras, 70% of the Bible pertains to Jews, only.

Not true.
And a lot of what does pertain to the Jews, tells of their virtual demise. Isaiah 22:14, Zephaniah 1:18

Jeffrey Bowden said:
You can’t show me one verse where believers enter the Trib.

Revelation 12:17...the dragon will wage war on ....those who witness to Jesus.

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Show me your verses that prove Jesus’ wrong in His prophetic promise in Rev 3:10.

Rev 3:10 proves you wrong itself.
The hour of temptation shall come upon all who dwell on the earth.
keep you from... is never said to be a rapture removal, but by protection and safety, Psalms 23, +

Jeffrey Bowden · Friday at 9:09 PM

keras said:
Not true.
And a lot of what does pertain to the Jews, tells of their virtual demise. Isaiah 22:14, Zephaniah 1:18

Revelation 12:17...the dragon will wage war on ....those who witness to Jesus.

Rev 3:10 proves you wrong itself.
The hour of temptation shall come upon all who dwell on the earth.
keep you from... is never said to be a rapture removal, but by protection and safety, Psalms 23, +

Rev 12:17 is ALL about Israel (the "woman"). The fleeing starts in Matt 24:16. Who's making those Jews flee? Satan (who inhabits the AC).

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

There are two groups cited in Rev 3:10: "you" and "those" that YOU, Karas, are corrupting the Bible to state as one. "You" are believers and "those" are "those who dwell on the earth -- after "you" are kept from the Trib. What type of people are "those," Keras? Try reading Rev 6:10. Are you one of "those?" Try reading Rev 11:10. Are you one of "those," again? Throughout the Trib, all references to "those who dwell on the earth" are unbelievers -- those who are left behind after the pre-rib rapture (Rev 4:1).

Douggg · Friday at 10:48 PM

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Rev 12:17 is ALL about Israel (the "woman"). The fleeing starts in Matt 24:16. Who's making those Jews flee? Satan (who inhabits the AC).

Jeffrey, Satan will persecute the Jews in Revelation 12:17. Those particular Jews are the ones who don't flee to the mountains right away when they see the abomination of desolation (the statue image) on the temple mount.

But Satan will not "inhabit" the Antichrist. Satan will indwelt the statue image of the beast-king (the Antichrist), that the false prophet will round up groups of Jews in Judea and bring them by force to the temple mount to worship that statue image or die.

keras · Friday at 11:13 PM

The blind leading the blind, will end up ?

Jeffrey Bowden · Friday at 11:28 PM

Doug, I do tend to lean toward Satan indwelling the AC. However, in Rev 12, Satan is Satan as the one chasing "the woman." Rev 12:13 (ESV): And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.

Where is the Great Multitude from Rev 7:13,14

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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