The Power Of One Article

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Revelation 4:1-2 refers exclusively to John. No mention of anyone else. Your belief is wrong.
Revelation 3:10, will be fulfilled by the Lord protecting His own people.

Revelation 12 and 13 both mention Gods people as being on earth during the 3 1/2 year period of world Satanic control.

The rapture to heaven theory is a false teaching and will never happen.

Revelation 4:1-2 refers exclusively to John. No mention of anyone else. Your belief is wrong.
Revelation 3:10, will be fulfilled by the Lord protecting His own people.

Revelation 12 and 13 both mention Gods people as being on earth during the 3 1/2 year period of world Satanic control.

The rapture to heaven theory is a false teaching and will never happen.

Jesus promised in Rev 3:10 to keep us from "the hour of trial." Jesus added that only "those who dwell on the earth" will be tried by God's 21 judgments of wrath (Rev 6-16). "Those who dwell on the earth," in the context of the Trib, are proven to be unbelievers (Rev 6:10 and Rev 11:10).

The vision experienced by John was about the viewing of one supernatural scene at a time that was shown to him by one angel. This is borne out in Rev 22:8 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,

One angel was in charge of what was shown to John.

John heard and saw each scene, and wrote about what he heard and saw in Rev.

Rev 1:9-16 are John on the island of Patmos, and the first audio and visuals shown to him. They set the pattern that John would follow: view a scene and write about it.

In Rev 4:1, immediately before "Come up here," John proved he was watching his vision with "I looked, and behold," and "I heard."

Immediately after "Come up here," in Rev 4:2, John used the word behold that proves he was still watching his vision.

John was on Patmos the whole time he was watching his vision to write Rev.

 

[Jamdoc]

The seals and trumpets are in the first half of the Trib. Matt 24:15 is accepted as the midpoint of the Trib. That toughly aligns with the 7th trumpet sounding in Rev 11:15 (which occurs shortly before the midpoint).

What happens immediately after the Trib is Matt 24:29 (the Trib is seen to have ended). Then, Matt 24:30 will occur which is the 2A (2nd Advent).

That wasn't what I was asking.

I was asking
when does the sun and moon darken (the signs Jesus gave immediately after the tribulation)?

I don't care what people have "accepted" as an interpretation of timing.
I care what the scripture actually says.

 

[keras]

John was on Patmos the whole time he was watching his vision to write Rev.

John was taken up to heaven, in his Spirit. As Rev 4:1-2 plainly states.
Making out this incident to show a general rapture to heaven of the Church, is serious mis-application of scripture.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

That wasn't what I was asking.

I was asking
when does the sun and moon darken (the signs Jesus gave immediately after the tribulation)?

I don't care what people have "accepted" as an interpretation of timing.
I care what the scripture actually says.

No one knows that answer, but God.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

John was taken up to heaven, in his Spirit. As Rev 4:1-2 plainly states.
Making out this incident to show a general rapture to heaven of the Church, is serious mis-application of scripture.

I proved that John never left Patmos. He never had to, to write Rev. Rev 1:9-16 are provided to prove how John was shown his vision, and that he never had to leave Patmos to see into Heaven. He wrote Rev while on Patmos, from the numerous supernatural scenes that were shown to him by one angel.

John was taken up to heaven, in his Spirit. As Rev 4:1-2 plainly states.
Making out this incident to show a general rapture to heaven of the Church, is serious mis-application of scripture.

Rev 4:1-2 prove John was watching the supernatural scene related to Rev 4. Hence, he was on Patmos to write Rev 4. He was never raptured to Heaven in the course of writing Rev.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I proved that John never left Patmos. He never had to, to write Rev. Rev 1:9-16 are provided to prove how John was shown his vision, and that he never had to leave Patmos to see into Heaven. He wrote Rev while on Patmos, from the numerous supernatural scenes that were shown to him by one angel.



Rev 4:1-2 prove John was watching the supernatural scene related to Rev 4. Hence, he was on Patmos to write Rev 4. He was never raptured to Heaven in the course of writing Rev.

If you would read Rev 1:9-16, you would see that John could see fine details in Heaven, from Patmos. The supernatural scenes showed to John by one angel (Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8) fully equipped John with everything he needed to write Rev.

Therefore, Rev 4:1 is unfulfilled. Hence, its purpose is to rapture the Chirch to Heaven. Also, Jesus proves in Rev 3:10 that “You” (believers) will be kept from the Trib. Rev 4:1 proves we will be raptured to Heaven.

 

[Jamdoc]

No one knows that answer, but God.

God already answers it in Revelation 6:12-17
before a single trumpet or bowl.

 

[keras]

If you would read Rev 1:9-16, you would see that John could see fine details in Heaven, from Patmos. The supernatural scenes showed to John by one angel (Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8) fully equipped John with everything he needed to write Rev.

Therefore, Rev 4:1 is unfulfilled. Hence, its purpose is to rapture the Chirch to Heaven. Also, Jesus proves in Rev 3:10 that “You” (believers) will be kept from the Trib. Rev 4:1 proves we will be raptured to Heaven.

I would be surprised if any thinking person believes this convoluted and incredible idea.
Even other believers in a rapture removal, don't support these peculiar and unsupported ideas.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

God already answers it in Revelation 6:12-17
before a single trumpet or bowl.

No. Matt 24:29 ends the Trib.

Matt 24:30 is the first verse of the 2A (2nd Advent).

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I would be surprised if any thinking person believes this convoluted and incredible idea.
Even other believers in a rapture removal, don't support these peculiar and unsupported ideas.

True or false? John was on Patmos in Rev 1:9. In verses 12-16, he is seeing and hearing the first supernatural scene shown to him by one angel. In verses 12-16, he sees fine details in Heaven. Below is the proof.

Rev 1:9-16 (ESV):
I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”

12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, 15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

 

[Jamdoc]

No. Matt 24:29 ends the Trib.

Matt 24:30 is the first verse of the 2A (2nd Advent).

Yes... and Revelation 6:12-17 .. is the same thing that Matthew 24:29 is.
That is where you see the signs in Matthew 24:29

If the signs that Jesus gave in Matthew 24:29 happen at Revelation 6:12-13, then you have to consider the timing of when Jesus said those signs would happen.. the 6th seal is immediately after the tribulation. So anything after the 6th seal is not "tribulation" it is

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

it isn't any surprise to me that the next passage in Revelation 7 has the great multitude before the throne having come OUT of great tribulation.. because Jesus said the sun and moon would darken immediately after the tribulation. They darkened (a blood moon is a darkened red moon), that means tribulation was over. What the great multitude is, is Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect... the rapture. Revelation 7 has the saints in heaven before the throne of God after they've been raptured/resurrected.

Compare scripture to scripture, and don't lean on your own understanding of what "tribulation" is, go by what the bible actually says.

 

[keras]

True or false? John was on Patmos in Rev 1:9. In verses 12-16, he is seeing and hearing the first supernatural scene shown to him by one angel. In verses 12-16, he sees fine details in Heaven. Below is the proof.

What John does; or doesn't do when he receives the Revelation, is of no great concern to us.
It surely does not support the false teaching of a rapture to heaven for anyone today.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

What John does; or doesn't do when he receives the Revelation, is of no great concern to us.
It surely does not support the false teaching of a rapture to heaven for anyone today.

My write-up above thoroughly proves that John only wrote about Rev 4. He never left Patmos during the writing of Rev 4. Therefore, Rev 4:1 remains unfulfilled. It is officially the pre-Trib rapture of the Church.

Rev 6:15-17 and Rev 9:4-6 prove there are no believers who entered the Trib. Jesus said in Rev 3:10 (ESV): “I will keep you be from the hour of trial.” Jesus also said who will be tried by God’s 21 judgments of wrath in the Trib: “Those who dwell on the earth.” In the context of the Trib, that phrase always means “unbelievers.” Therefore, Jesus said in Rev 3:10 that “you” (believers) will be kept from the Trib, and that “those who dwell on the earth” (unbelievers) will enter the Trib.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Yes... and Revelation 6:12-17 .. is the same thing that Matthew 24:29 is.
That is where you see the signs in Matthew 24:29

If the signs that Jesus gave in Matthew 24:29 happen at Revelation 6:12-13, then you have to consider the timing of when Jesus said those signs would happen.. the 6th seal is immediately after the tribulation. So anything after the 6th seal is not "tribulation" it is



it isn't any surprise to me that the next passage in Revelation 7 has the great multitude before the throne having come OUT of great tribulation.. because Jesus said the sun and moon would darken immediately after the tribulation. They darkened (a blood moon is a darkened red moon), that means tribulation was over. What the great multitude is, is Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect... the rapture. Revelation 7 has the saints in heaven before the throne of God after they've been raptured/resurrected.

Compare scripture to scripture, and don't lean on your own understanding of what "tribulation" is, go by what the bible actually says.

Matt 24:29 does not entirely match Rev 6:12-15. Their differences are in bold, below. Also, these two sets of verses occur at very different times. Rev 6:12-15 occur rather early in the Trib. Matt 24:29 occurs af the end of the Trib.

Matt 24:29 (ESV): “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.


Rev 6:12-15 (ESV): When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,

 

[Jamdoc]

Matt 24:29 does not entirely match Rev 6:12-15. Their differences are in bold, below. Also, these two sets of verses occur at very different times. Rev 6:12-15 occur rather early in the Trib. Matt 24:29 occurs af the end of the Trib.

Matt 24:29 (ESV): “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.


Rev 6:12-15 (ESV): When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,

The sky being rolled up like a scroll is the heavens being shaken. Same thing.

the "early in the tribulation" part is the part you need to let go of. You're leaning on your (and other people's) understanding of what "tribulation" means. Tribulation according to Jesus is not just "anything bad that happens" it's specific to religious persecution. The word "tribulation" is first used in the bible in Deuteronomy 4 when it is describing Israel being scattered among the nations and made to serve foreign gods. It is religious persecution.
the Flood was not tribulation
the destruction of Sodom was not tribulation
those were acts of the wrath of God.

Jesus does not describe any of the trumpets or bowls in Matthew 24. He describes the first 6 seals.... in the same order as Revelation 6 gives them, up to the 6th seal, and then His return, then He goes into parables of what happens when He returns. The very next thing gone into after the 6th seal is loosed, are the signs of Matthew 24:29, the proclamation of the great day of God's wrath, and the saints in heaven before the throne of God having come out of great tribulation. In order to not see the 6th seal as matching with Matthew 24, you have to hold a pre-conceived notion that Revelation 19 is the second coming. There are however, inaccuracies here. Revelation 19 does NOT have the darkening of the sun and moon, and it does NOT have the gathering of the elect: rather it has people already in heaven. Jesus is to return on the clouds, not on a horse, as well. When the heavens open, John was not on Earth looking up at the heavens opening and watching Jesus ride Pegasus down. John was in heaven, the heavens opened up and He saw Jesus on a white (non winged) horse, in robes dipped in blood. IE Jesus had already been on Earth, and had already stained His clothes in blood treading the winepress of the wrath of God as shown in Isaiah 63, it was also depicted in Revelation 14:14-20. How is Jesus covered in the blood of His enemies after treading the winepress of the wrath of God, if He has never come down to Earth prior to Revelation 19?
Don't invent explanations like "it's symbolic for the blood He shed for us" or "it's the blood of the great tribulation martyrs magically relocated to His vestments" (and yes I've seen someone try to say this).
Compare scripture to scripture. Revelation 14 and Isaiah 63 tell you what that blood is. In Revelation 19 Jesus has already been on Earth, the saints in heaven rejoin Him on Earth is what it describes.

Less "Clash of the Titans", Less "Left Behind", more Bible.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The sky being rolled up like a scroll is the heavens being shaken. Same thing.

the "early in the tribulation" part is the part you need to let go of. You're leaning on your (and other people's) understanding of what "tribulation" means. Tribulation according to Jesus is not just "anything bad that happens" it's specific to religious persecution. The word "tribulation" is first used in the bible in Deuteronomy 4 when it is describing Israel being scattered among the nations and made to serve foreign gods. It is religious persecution.
the Flood was not tribulation
the destruction of Sodom was not tribulation
those were acts of the wrath of God.

Jesus does not describe any of the trumpets or bowls in Matthew 24. He describes the first 6 seals.... in the same order as Revelation 6 gives them, up to the 6th seal, and then His return, then He goes into parables of what happens when He returns. The very next thing gone into after the 6th seal is loosed, are the signs of Matthew 24:29, the proclamation of the great day of God's wrath, and the saints in heaven before the throne of God having come out of great tribulation. In order to not see the 6th seal as matching with Matthew 24, you have to hold a pre-conceived notion that Revelation 19 is the second coming. There are however, inaccuracies here. Revelation 19 does NOT have the darkening of the sun and moon, and it does NOT have the gathering of the elect: rather it has people already in heaven. Jesus is to return on the clouds, not on a horse, as well. When the heavens open, John was not on Earth looking up at the heavens opening and watching Jesus ride Pegasus down. John was in heaven, the heavens opened up and He saw Jesus on a white (non winged) horse, in robes dipped in blood. IE Jesus had already been on Earth, and had already stained His clothes in blood treading the winepress of the wrath of God as shown in Isaiah 63, it was also depicted in Revelation 14:14-20. How is Jesus covered in the blood of His enemies after treading the winepress of the wrath of God, if He has never come down to Earth prior to Revelation 19?
Don't invent explanations like "it's symbolic for the blood He shed for us" or "it's the blood of the great tribulation martyrs magically relocated to His vestments" (and yes I've seen someone try to say this).
Compare scripture to scripture. Revelation 14 and Isaiah 63 tell you what that blood is. In Revelation 19 Jesus has already been on Earth, the saints in heaven rejoin Him on Earth is what it describes.

Less "Clash of the Titans", Less "Left Behind", more Bible.

The sky being rolled up like a scroll is the heavens being shaken. Same thing.

the "early in the tribulation" part is the part you need to let go of. You're leaning on your (and other people's) understanding of what "tribulation" means. Tribulation according to Jesus is not just "anything bad that happens" it's specific to religious persecution. The word "tribulation" is first used in the bible in Deuteronomy 4 when it is describing Israel being scattered among the nations and made to serve foreign gods. It is religious persecution.
the Flood was not tribulation
the destruction of Sodom was not tribulation
those were acts of the wrath of God.

Jesus does not describe any of the trumpets or bowls in Matthew 24. He describes the first 6 seals.... in the same order as Revelation 6 gives them, up to the 6th seal, and then His return, then He goes into parables of what happens when He returns. The very next thing gone into after the 6th seal is loosed, are the signs of Matthew 24:29, the proclamation of the great day of God's wrath, and the saints in heaven before the throne of God having come out of great tribulation. In order to not see the 6th seal as matching with Matthew 24, you have to hold a pre-conceived notion that Revelation 19 is the second coming. There are however, inaccuracies here. Revelation 19 does NOT have the darkening of the sun and moon, and it does NOT have the gathering of the elect: rather it has people already in heaven. Jesus is to return on the clouds, not on a horse, as well. When the heavens open, John was not on Earth looking up at the heavens opening and watching Jesus ride Pegasus down. John was in heaven, the heavens opened up and He saw Jesus on a white (non winged) horse, in robes dipped in blood. IE Jesus had already been on Earth, and had already stained His clothes in blood treading the winepress of the wrath of God as shown in Isaiah 63, it was also depicted in Revelation 14:14-20. How is Jesus covered in the blood of His enemies after treading the winepress of the wrath of God, if He has never come down to Earth prior to Revelation 19?
Don't invent explanations like "it's symbolic for the blood He shed for us" or "it's the blood of the great tribulation martyrs magically relocated to His vestments" (and yes I've seen someone try to say this).
Compare scripture to scripture. Revelation 14 and Isaiah 63 tell you what that blood is. In Revelation 19 Jesus has already been on Earth, the saints in heaven rejoin Him on Earth is what it describes.

Less "Clash of the Titans", Less "Left Behind", more Bible.

All 21 judgments of God’s wrath in the Trib, occur in their numerical sequence. Daniel 9:27 proves the Trib is seven years long, give or take a few weeks or even a few months (or more) per Matt 24:22.

In Daniel 9:27, the Trib is described as a 7-year period (different Bible versions describe the length of the Trib in Daniel 9:27 in other words, but they all mean a period of seven years).

The 6th seal occurs early in the Trib (after the 5th seal (Rev 6:9-11) and before the 7th seal (Rev 8:1). The trumpets begin Rev 8 and they end in Rev 11:15. The bowls occur in Rev 16.

It is thereby proven that the seals and trumpets occur in the first half of the Trib, and the bowls occur over the second half.

When you read the verses cited above, you will see that it is proven that the 6th seal does not occur at the same time as Matt 24:29, even though they share much phenomena in common. God will use some phenomena more than once in the Trib. The 6th seal and Matt 24:29 serve as one example.

 

[Jamdoc]

All 21 judgments of God’s wrath in the Trib, occur in their numerical sequence. Daniel 9:27 proves the Trib is seven years long, give or take a few weeks or even a few months (or more) per Matt 24:22.

Daniel never says "the trib" is 7 years long. Daniel says there's a 70th week, and in the midpoint of the week there will be the abomination of desolation and THEN there is a time of troubles that is time, times, and half a time (3.5 years), Revelation gives it as 42 months. (also 3.5 years). Nowhere in the bible is the term "7 year tribulation" ever used.

In Daniel 9:27, the Trib is described as a 7-year period (different Bible versions describe the length of the Trib in Daniel 9:27 in other words, but they all mean a period of seven years).

The 6th seal occurs early in the Trib (after the 5th seal (Rev 6:9-11) and before the 7th seal (Rev 8:1). The trumpets begin Rev 8 and they end in Rev 11:15. The bowls occur in Rev 16.

Jesus says after the tribulation the sun and moon darken and the stars fall and etc etc, Day of the Lord imagery from the old testament. That happens at the 6th seal.
So whatever tribulation Jesus was referring to, ends before the 6th seal.
anything after the 6th seal, is not what Jesus was referring to by great tribulation.

I don't care what left behind says
I don't care what pastors say
I don't care about what self proclaimed prophets say

I care about what the bible says, and the bible gives the signs of Matthew 24:29 at the 6th seal. So I accept that that is the end of tribulation as Jesus was talking about and the beginning of something else: the Day of the Lord, the great day of the wrath of God Almighty and the Lamb.

It is thereby proven that the seals and trumpets occur in the first half of the Trib, and the bowls occur over the second half.

The only timing verse present.. is Revelation 6:12-13, which lines up with Matthew 24:29.

When you read the verses cited above, you will see that it is proven that the 6th seal does not occur at the same time as Matt 24:29, even though they share much phenomena in common. God will use some phenomena more than once in the Trib. The 6th seal and Matt 24:29 serve as one example.

God uses it at the 6th seal, and nowhere else, it is not in Revelation 19.
Stop injecting it in the text.

the signs of the Day of the Lord will be used twice in total.
once at Jesus' death (where the sun and moon darkened and even a Chinese Emperor recorded it in his annals and even interpreted the sign as all crimes are put on one man and pardon is proclaimed from heaven, and "the man from heaven died", there was also an Earthquake and some people (I believe the 24 elders, or at least some of them, Enoch might be included in their number) were resurrected)
and once at His return.

Using it more often would destroy the meaning of the signs.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Daniel never says "the trib" is 7 years long. Daniel says there's a 70th week, and in the midpoint of the week there will be the abomination of desolation and THEN there is a time of troubles that is time, times, and half a time (3.5 years), Revelation gives it as 42 months. (also 3.5 years). Nowhere in the bible is the term "7 year tribulation" ever used.

Jesus says after the tribulation the sun and moon darken and the stars fall and etc etc, Day of the Lord imagery from the old testament. That happens at the 6th seal.
So whatever tribulation Jesus was referring to, ends before the 6th seal.
anything after the 6th seal, is not what Jesus was referring to by great tribulation.

I don't care what left behind says
I don't care what pastors say
I don't care about what self proclaimed prophets say

I care about what the bible says, and the bible gives the signs of Matthew 24:29 at the 6th seal. So I accept that that is the end of tribulation as Jesus was talking about and the beginning of something else: the Day of the Lord, the great day of the wrath of God Almighty and the Lamb.

The only timing verse present.. is Revelation 6:12-13, which lines up with Matthew 24:29.

God uses it at the 6th seal, and nowhere else, it is not in Revelation 19.
Stop injecting it in the text.

the signs of the Day of the Lord will be used twice in total.
once at Jesus' death (where the sun and moon darkened and even a Chinese Emperor recorded it in his annals and even interpreted the sign as all crimes are put on one man and pardon is proclaimed from heaven, and "the man from heaven died", there was also an Earthquake and some people (I believe the 24 elders, or at least some of them, Enoch might be included in their number) were resurrected)
and once at His return.

Using it more often would destroy the meaning of the signs.wording on Fa

Matt 24:29 does not entirely match Rev 6:12-15. Their differences are in bold, below. Also, these two sets of verses occur at very different times. Rev 6:12-15 occur rather early in the Trib. Matt 24:29 occurs af the end of the Trib.

Matt 24:29 (ESV): “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.


Rev 6:12-15 (ESV): When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. 14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,

Rev 7 is known as an interlude in the book of Rev. In other words, it does not occur where it’s placed among the surrounding chapters.

For instance, Rev 7:16 cites wrath in the Trib that occurs years apart.

Rev 7:16 (ESV):
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.

The “hunger” is the famine in Rev 6:8 and the “scorching heat” occurs in the 4th bowl, in Rev 16:9.

Now, being subjected to the wrath of God in the Trib is something only unbelievers experience. We’re talking about the GM (great multitude) here. Therefore, the GM enters the Trib as unbelievers. Let me chart their course.

All hell breaks loose in the Trib from day 1 (1 Th 5:1-3) are proof. The 2nd seal, with its simultaneous wars occurring all over this planet, converts society into a “kill or be killed” ultimatum.

In the 4th seal, 25% of the world’s population is killed by more wars, famine, pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

Many of the unbelievers begin to see the light. They are served in the Trib by the 144k (Rev 1-8) who facilitate the greatest revival in history. The 144k begin the conversion of a multitude. The new converts learn the need to give testimony of Jesus Christ, so others may be saved.

All of the new converts in the Trib thereby become martyrs — for giving testimony of Jesus Christ, the most noble manner of death.

Those early martyrs are the souls under the altar in Rev 6:9. In Rev 6:11, they are told that need to wait a while longer for their “fellow servants” to be killed as they were.

The martyrs in the 2nd half of the Trib are found under the altar in Rev 20:4. All of the martyrs are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They then appear together in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17. The first word out of their collective mouth is “Salvation,” in Rev 7:10. They are before the throne of God and profusely thank and praise Him for their salvation from the Trib.

 

[Jamdoc]

Rev 7 is known as an interlude in the book of Rev. In other words, it does not occur where it’s placed among the surrounding chapters.

"It is known as" is not an acceptable answer.
The bible doesn't say it as an interlude. people inject that understanding in order to fit THEIR ideas of what the end times are like. They put doctrine before scripture and attempt to fit scripture according to their doctrine.

I don't buy it.

Revelation 7

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

"And after these things" that is, after the 6th seal. It is linking this passage with the previous passage. It is not shown as an interlude or separate vision, but something happening Chronologically after the first 6 seals, and before the 7th seal. Next part, the angels are given charge to dispense the wrath of God, but NOT UNTIL the sealing of the 144,000, and the great multitude are before the throne of God.

This is not after the wrath of God, it is before.. It literally tells the angels to slow their roll before dispensing the wrath of God until something else happens first. This cannot be a time skip until after Revelation 19, because they are held back from doing the trumpets and bowls until something happens first.

to confirm this we go to the next passage

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

So this follows the sealing of the 144,000, but before the trumpets and bowls, before the angels can unleash the wrath of God.

For instance, Rev 7:16 cites wrath in the Trib that occurs years apart.

Rev 7:16 (ESV):
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore;
the sun shall not strike them,
nor any scorching heat.

The “hunger” is the famine in Rev 6:8 and the “scorching heat” occurs in the 4th bowl, in Rev 16:9.

Now, being subjected to the wrath of God in the Trib is something only unbelievers experience. We’re talking about the GM (great multitude) here. Therefore, the GM enters the Trib as unbelievers. Let me chart their course.

All hell breaks loose in the Trib from day 1 (1 Th 5:1-3) are proof. The 2nd seal, with its simultaneous wars occurring all over this planet, converts society into a “kill or be killed” ultimatum.

In the 4th seal, 25% of the world’s population is killed by more wars, famine, pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

Many of the unbelievers begin to see the light. They are served in the Trib by the 144k (Rev 1-8) who facilitate the greatest revival in history. The 144k begin the conversion of a multitude. The new converts learn the need to give testimony of Jesus Christ, so others may be saved.

All of the new converts in the Trib thereby become martyrs — for giving testimony of Jesus Christ, the most noble manner of death.

Those early martyrs are the souls under the altar in Rev 6:9. In Rev 6:11, they are told that need to wait a while longer for their “fellow servants” to be killed as they were.

The martyrs in the 2nd half of the Trib are found under the altar in Rev 20:4. All of the martyrs are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They then appear together in Heaven, in Rev 7:9-17. The first word out of their collective mouth is “Salvation,” in Rev 7:10. They are before the throne of God and profusely thank and praise Him for their salvation from the Trib.

Too much "left behind"

I pointed out how Revelation 7 connects Chronologically to Revelation 6, and then Revelation 8 shows the 7th seal, leading to the 7 trumpets.

Let's see if we see people converting en masse the way Left Behind and most pretrib doctrine claims they will shall we?

Revelation 9

6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Well that's certainly not repenting...
Surely there's a bunch of people repenting after later though right?

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Oops, sounds like something has hardened their hearts They know God is real, they know Jesus is real, they know its His wrath according to Revelation 6:17... and they don't repent. I'll get to that in a bit.

Revelation 10 starts out a little different

1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:

Not "after these things" or "after this" it's just.. "I saw. It's not necessarily chronological. it seems to be a new vision, unconnected with what John has seen up until this point. It doesn't connect with the 6 trumpets, while Revelation 7 DID connect with the 6th and 7th seal.

Here's an interesting verse a lot of people gloss over

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Something is finished at the 7th trumpet. It is not a midpoint, it is an end point.

Revelation 11

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

No after these things so this is not necessarily connected Chronologically to anything. It can be a continuation or a new vision.

the next timing marker that establishes we're back in Chronology is Revelation 11:14
Now if you want to have 3.5 years between the 6th trumpet and 7th trumpet I can't specifically argue with that as I see nothing in the text saying that's not how it goes I do think Revelation 10 and the first part of 11 are not within Chronology though. I believe the 1260 days of the two witnesses is during the first 3.5 years, and they are killed and resurrected/raptured at the 6th seal, due to the Earthquake and the fact that they are resurrected/raptured, I don't expect multiple resurrection/rapture events, but I can't prove that. so I'm not dogmatic on that.
All I know is that the text does not say and after these things to establish a chronology, but that does not remove the possibility of Chronology. But I feel 3.5 years between the 6th and 7th seal unlikely and multiple waves of first resurrections unlikely.

But as I said, Revelation 10 says that the 7th trumpet is the end of something, the finish of something, not a midpoint, and there's this:

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I don't buy that Jesus' first act after taking the kingdom is to give it back to Satan so he can give it to Antichrist.

there's also this

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Why are they talking about now is the final judgement if Jesus hasn't even come back yet? This sounds final, the end. Not a midpoint.

Revelation 12

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

No and after these things., and the imagery does not really support that this is a continuation. I believe it is a new vision, and a new Chronology. as we get into Chapter 13 we see what I believe connects to the 5th seal, and the saints in Revelation overcame great tribulation, the saints in Revelation 15 overcame the mark of the beast, I believe same time.. different details.
Otherwise you have 2 groups of 144,000.

But let's go into the bowls and see if we find people repenting during the wrath of God there
Revelation 16

8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

So they know the God of the bible is true, that'd mean they know Jesus is true and they can be saved by repenting right?
But they blaspheme and curse instead of repent.

surley they repent later right?

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

This is all looking really bad for the "tribulation saint" doctrine.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Instead of repenting they take up arms against Jesus.. and they know where He will be and they know when He will be there. That doesn't sound like no one knows the day or hour. That sounds like they know how to count down days

Finally
]quote]21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.[/quote]
Instead of repenting.. they curse.

I'm not seeing people "coming to faith after the rapture"
I'm seeing hardened hearts that cannot repent even though they know God is true.

Why can't they repent? The Lord showed me something once, and tied it to the parable of the 10 virgins. Why the foolish 5 are not just told to come back in 7 years but are utterly refused.

Amos 8

1 Thus hath the Lord God shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.
2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the Lord unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

Figs are the summer fruit. Jesus refers to this regarding the fig tree in Matthew 24

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.

This is the signs of the Day of the Lord, the signs of the 6th seal, and as I see it.. last call for repentance.

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:[/quote]
why? Because those who would preach the Word of God are raptured. Either had been martyred and resurrected, or raptured alive, but there's nobody preaching, or at the very most, they number 144,000.

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

They can't even find the Word of God anymore.
The last 2 verses have them doubling down on idolatry (the Sin of Samaria was idolatry, and Dan was the first tribe to fall away)

I don't believe in post rapture tribulation saints. I believe that after the 6th seal, salvation is closed, the foolish virgins get refused, and it's not just for 7 years, it's forever.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The sky being rolled up like a scroll is the heavens being shaken. Same thing.

the "early in the tribulation" part is the part you need to let go of. You're leaning on your (and other people's) understanding of what "tribulation" means. Tribulation according to Jesus is not just "anything bad that happens" it's specific to religious persecution. The word "tribulation" is first used in the bible in Deuteronomy 4 when it is describing Israel being scattered among the nations and made to serve foreign gods. It is religious persecution.
the Flood was not tribulation
the destruction of Sodom was not tribulation
those were acts of the wrath of God.

Jesus does not describe any of the trumpets or bowls in Matthew 24. He describes the first 6 seals.... in the same order as Revelation 6 gives them, up to the 6th seal, and then His return, then He goes into parables of what happens when He returns. The very next thing gone into after the 6th seal is loosed, are the signs of Matthew 24:29, the proclamation of the great day of God's wrath, and the saints in heaven before the throne of God having come out of great tribulation. In order to not see the 6th seal as matching with Matthew 24, you have to hold a pre-conceived notion that Revelation 19 is the second coming. There are however, inaccuracies here. Revelation 19 does NOT have the darkening of the sun and moon, and it does NOT have the gathering of the elect: rather it has people already in heaven. Jesus is to return on the clouds, not on a horse, as well. When the heavens open, John was not on Earth looking up at the heavens opening and watching Jesus ride Pegasus down. John was in heaven, the heavens opened up and He saw Jesus on a white (non winged) horse, in robes dipped in blood. IE Jesus had already been on Earth, and had already stained His clothes in blood treading the winepress of the wrath of God as shown in Isaiah 63, it was also depicted in Revelation 14:14-20. How is Jesus covered in the blood of His enemies after treading the winepress of the wrath of God, if He has never come down to Earth prior to Revelation 19?
Don't invent explanations like "it's symbolic for the blood He shed for us" or "it's the blood of the great tribulation martyrs magically relocated to His vestments" (and yes I've seen someone try to say this).
Compare scripture to scripture. Revelation 14 and Isaiah 63 tell you what that blood is. In Revelation 19 Jesus has already been on Earth, the saints in heaven rejoin Him on Earth is what it describes.

Less "Clash of the Titans", Less "Left Behind", more Bible.

No. There’s God’s wrath in the 2nd and 4th seals (famine, pestilence, wars and brutal killings of humans by wild beasts). Guess what? Read 1 Th 1:10 (ESV): and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

That verse is about the pre-Trib rapture.