Jesus Is Not Your American Patriot

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

Since the resurrection of Christ, the Bible refers not to individual nations or peoples, but to the "body of Christ," encompassing all believers regardless of their nationality.

Taking care our own nation and own people does not exist in New Testament.

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I disagree. Even post-resurrection, the Bible still refers to nations and peoples. It is Paul who writes that God established the nations (Acts 17:26). It is Paul who also writes, "I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh" (Rom 9:3). Further, the Pauline author of 1 Timothy says, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel" (5:8). It seems clear to me that there is nothing wrong with taking care of one's own nation and people.

Christians find it hard to separate the world of man from the Kingdom, perhaps because the religion abandoned it centuries ago to rejoin the world of man. When one talks of a 'body of Christ', one is referring to those of the Kingdom and it's ways, not the ways of mankind. The Kingdom is a counter-culture to the natural cultures of mankind. Jesus said to not rebel against the world, but to serve all, including enemies, as self. Supporting the politics and identity of human nations is not on the agenda. Be in the world, but not of it, as this world is made in our image, not God's.

Durham Cicero said:

I disagree. Even post-resurrection, the Bible still refers to nations and peoples. It is Paul who writes that God established the nations (Acts 17:26). It is Paul who also writes, "I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh" (Rom 9:3). Further, the Pauline author of 1 Timothy says, "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel" (5:8). It seems clear to me that there is nothing wrong with taking care of one's own nation and people.

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Selecting random Bible verses out of context does not constitute biblical doctrine.

In Acts 17:16-34, Paul visited Athens and observed their idolatry, worshipping various gods, including an unknown god. He introduced this unknown god to the Athenians. In verse 24, Paul spoke about the creation of the world and Adam. Verse 26 refers to Adam rather than today's nations as divided geographically.

Romans 9:3 is taken out of context. To understand Romans 9, one must read the first 8 chapters. Paul discusses the disobedience of Jews that allowed Gentiles to gain salvation. If Jews don't turn to God, they will face punishment. Paul laments the suffering of Jews and wishes they would accept Christ.

The first 10 chapters of Romans focus on salvation, not politics. It is unfortunate that many Christians today manipulate Scripture to suit political agendas.

1 Timothy 5 discusses guidelines for the church on caring for widows, elders, and slaves. In verse 8, Paul emphasizes the family duty to care for each other. The passage is not related to political matters or national care.

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

1 Timothy 5 discusses guidelines for the church on caring for widows, elders, and slaves. In verse 8, Paul emphasizes the family duty to care for each other. The passage is not related to political matters or national care.

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Yes, we are to follow the ways of the Kingdom, not the backwards self-serving ways of mankind

sanderabeer said:

Source: Jesus Is Not Your American Patriot

I think a lot of American Christians confuse American civil religion for Christianity. What say you? Is Jesus an American patriot?

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Nor is He a Jewish patriot. He is the king of kings, the creator of all.
This is not our home.
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."
It was not God's intent that jews be patriotic to a human king or system, but to Him.
1 Sam 8:6
But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”

timothyu said:

Christians find it hard to separate the world of man from the Kingdom, perhaps because the religion abandoned it centuries ago to rejoin the world of man. When one talks of a 'body of Christ', one is referring to those of the Kingdom and it's ways, not the ways of mankind. The Kingdom is a counter-culture to the natural cultures of mankind. Jesus said to not rebel against the world, but to serve all, including enemies, as self. Supporting the politics and identity of human nations is not on the agenda. Be in the world, but not of it, as this world is made in our image, not God's.

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I find those who argue for this complete seperation of Christians from political life have a difficult time separating the Kingdom from average or ordinary political participation. But people of your persuasion have an impossible standard that not even you live up to since you yourself are worldly and invested in worldly outcomes.

It's almost gnostic.

Jesus' only gospel was that of the Gospel of the Kingdom, not the gospel of the world of man.

timothyu said:

Jesus' only gospel was that of the Gospel of the Kingdom, not the gospel of the world of man.

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There is no Gospel of the world of the world of man. But there are basic ways to our material and human existence. One of those is seen in community, local, county and state community.

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

Selecting random Bible verses out of context does not constitute biblical doctrine.

In Acts 17:16-34, Paul visited Athens and observed their idolatry, worshipping various gods, including an unknown god. He introduced this unknown god to the Athenians. In verse 24, Paul spoke about the creation of the world and Adam. Verse 26 refers to Adam rather than today's nations as divided geographically.

Romans 9:3 is taken out of context. To understand Romans 9, one must read the first 8 chapters. Paul discusses the disobedience of Jews that allowed Gentiles to gain salvation. If Jews don't turn to God, they will face punishment. Paul laments the suffering of Jews and wishes they would accept Christ.

The first 10 chapters of Romans focus on salvation, not politics. It is unfortunate that many Christians today manipulate Scripture to suit political agendas.

1 Timothy 5 discusses guidelines for the church on caring for widows, elders, and slaves. In verse 8, Paul emphasizes the family duty to care for each other. The passage is not related to political matters or national care.

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How does Acts 17:26 refer to Adam being divided as opposed to the nations? It reads:

...and hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation...

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In other words, out of one man (Adam) came all the nations of the earth. God has determined when they come into existence and what their boundaries (geography) are. In context, why does Paul say this? He is speaking to the Athenians, not Jews. God has worked with all nations "that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us" (v. 27). So you're simply incorrect to say this passage shows anything other than what I claimed: God established the nations.

You claim I've taken Romans 9:3 out of context, but your analysis agrees with mine. You're right in saying Paul laments the suffering of the Jews and wishes they would accept Christ. But why? He tells us: The Jews are his brothers and kinsmen according to the flesh (i.e., Paul is a Jew who laments for his fellow Jews). Paul has an identity with his people and feels a special way about their waywardness. I have no political agenda here. It's perfectly acceptable to feel as Paul did about one's own people.

Finally, you also agree with my reading of 1 Timothy 5:8. We have a duty to our own family. Again, there is no political agenda on my part. All of these passages taken together go to show that it is entirely acceptable to recognize God in the existence of nations, to have a special concern for one's own people, and to have a duty toward one's own family.

Absolutely not.

America is everything but what God wished for the world to become.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

But there are basic ways to our material and human existence. One of those is seen in community, local, county and state community.

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True, but there are two ways of approaching it, man's selfish ways or the servitude to each other ways of the Kingdom.

timothyu said:

True, but there are two ways of approaching it, man's selfish ways or the servitude to each other ways of the Kingdom.

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Selfishness being what exactly? The privledge we extend to our family? The privledge we extend to our immediate neighbors and friends? Would you want to abolish all bonds of loyalty in favour of something else? I don't see how you can escape particular political localities even as a Christian. You haven't.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Would you want to abolish all bonds of loyalty in favour of something else?

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Jesus, like the Father before Him, made it clear; Kingdom over the ways of man, God's will ahead of our own.

First, whatever is meant by an "American Patriot", I'm fairly certain that Jesus would not fit the description. As for slogans like "God and country", I find them a bit disingenuous at the very least. While God may give rise to nations and leaders, it's not necessarily because that nation or leader is any closer to God than others. God has His own agenda for everything and we won't know the details until He reveals them. That said, I find a couple of references to God in our government that are quite ironic. We print "In God We Trust" on our money, the modern day symbol of mammon. Christ said we cannot serve God and mammon.
We also require anyone who is going to testify in a trial to take an oath on the Bible. Christ said in Matthew 5:33-37 "33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." So Christ taught us to swear any oath but rather be honest all the time. Some courts will allow someone to swear on the canon of their religion (if it's not Christianity) or take a civil oath for atheists. That said, don't you think a jury full of Christians might be biased against the testimony of someone who refuses to take an oath on the Bible? Just saying.

So, is America even a "Christian nation"? Personally I don't believe that there is such a thing as a Christian nation on the earth today, assuming the definition of a "Christian nation" is one whose laws are based on the teachings of Christ. If you go by the number of people who self identify as "Christian", then by that measurement we do have around 2/3 of Americans who identified as "Christian" in the latest census. That's down from 90 some percent in 1990.

That said, I seriously doubt that God enabled or had any hand in prompting our forefathers to kill off the Native Americans and take their land to build our nation in His name, just because they were non-believers. I doubt that He approved of the racism and slavery that built our country. And I doubt that He is on our side in any way because we are a "Christian nation" to this day.

Lastly, first and foremost, I like to look at the teachings and the example set by Christ to determine what He might believe on any matter. Christ made only one "political statement". That was when He was questioned about paying tribute to Caesar. He could have been a patriot to the Romans if He had answered in the affirmative, but as usual with politics, He would have drawn the ire of the Essene and the Zealots. If He had answered no, He would have been a patriot to those Jews who were looking for a Messiah who would overthrow the oppressors and drawn the ire of the Romans. Instead he replied with the oft quoted "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." So, Christ refused to get involved in political matters and reminded us that His message was of God and not of this world or it's rulers. With that I figure we should just be glad we live in a country where we can worship without the fear of government persecution and that we have the right to vote for our leaders. Maybe God gave us those rights to test what we would do with them. How do you think we're doing?

timothyu said:

Jesus, like the Father before Him, made it clear; Kingdom over the ways of man, God's will ahead of our own.

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And yet he condescends to allow us to live an earthly life of some sort. He allows us to be married, to have friends, to have children and invest in their interests above those of others. In fact we are expected as Christians to have a fundamental loyalty to these first and foremost in our relationships with others.

This is why you can't escape the political, even as a Christian, unless you are willing to abandon every aspect of worldly living.

Durham Cicero said:

How does Acts 17:26 refer to Adam being divided as opposed to the nations? It reads:

In other words, out of one man (Adam) came all the nations of the earth. God has determined when they come into existence and what their boundaries (geography) are. In context, why does Paul say this? He is speaking to the Athenians, not Jews. God has worked with all nations "that they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us" (v. 27). So you're simply incorrect to say this passage shows anything other than what I claimed: God established the nations.

You claim I've taken Romans 9:3 out of context, but your analysis agrees with mine. You're right in saying Paul laments the suffering of the Jews and wishes they would accept Christ. But why? He tells us: The Jews are his brothers and kinsmen according to the flesh (i.e., Paul is a Jew who laments for his fellow Jews). Paul has an identity with his people and feels a special way about their waywardness. I have no political agenda here. It's perfectly acceptable to feel as Paul did about one's own people.

Finally, you also agree with my reading of 1 Timothy 5:8. We have a duty to our own family. Again, there is no political agenda on my part. All of these passages taken together go to show that it is entirely acceptable to recognize God in the existence of nations, to have a special concern for one's own people, and to have a duty toward one's own family.

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I regret to inform you that focusing on a single verse or word and attempting to create a doctrine from it is not effective. Systematic theology does not operate in this manner.

In Acts 17, Paul introduced the God of creation to the Athenians. He explained that all nations descended from Adam, making the Athenians offspring of the same God through Adam. Therefore, they should seek Him.

The first ten chapters of Romans discuss salvation through grace and explain that Gentiles became part of God's plan due to Jewish disobedience. Using a single verse out of context to form a doctrine is not how systematic theology works.

1 Timothy 5 discusses church responsibilities towards the poor and widows. Paul emphasizes the duty of family members to care for each other.

Using these verses to support nationalism is unfortunate and misguided.

sanderabeer said:

Source: Jesus Is Not Your American Patriot

I think a lot of American Christians confuse American civil religion for Christianity. What say you? Is Jesus an American patriot?

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Jesus is not an American patriot.

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

I regret to inform you that focusing on a single verse or word and attempting to create a doctrine from it is not effective. Systematic theology does not operate in this manner.

In Acts 17, Paul introduced the God of creation to the Athenians. He explained that all nations descended from Adam, making the Athenians offspring of the same God through Adam. Therefore, they should seek Him.

The first ten chapters of Romans discuss salvation through grace and explain that Gentiles became part of God's plan due to Jewish disobedience. Using a single verse out of context to form a doctrine is not how systematic theology works.

1 Timothy 5 discusses church responsibilities towards the poor and widows. Paul emphasizes the duty of family members to care for each other.

Using these verses to support nationalism is unfortunate and misguided.

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Judging that your initial challenge concerned post-resurrection passages, I assume you're already aware that God deals with nations and peoples in the Hebrew scriptures. You're arguing that such things are not God's concern in the Greek scriptures. So far, you have not been able to deal with the passages I've presented to you. If your theology is unable to incorporate these passages, then you may need to reevaluate your theology.

Concerning Acts 17, you're correct. Paul explains to the Athenians that all nations descended from Adam. What else does Paul say? He says God "hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation." I'm not sure how many times this will need to be pointed out to you before you either (a) accept it or (b) deal with it. So far, you have chosen to ignore it.

You continue to insist that I have taken Romans 9:3 out of context, but you and I have both gone through the context together. Paul, a Jew, is mourning for his fellow Jews who have rejected Christ. Paul tells us why he is mourning for them in particular, why he would "wish that myself were accursed from Christ": The Jews are his "brethren" and his "kinsmen according to the flesh."

At least we seem to agree on what the passage in 1 Timothy 5 means. Now, do these passages support nationalism? I wouldn't make that claim. Are they compatible with nationalism? Absolutely. The Bible doesn't teach us to be nationalists, but it doesn't dissuade us either.

Hazelelponi said:

God decreed borders and nations. Each nation will have their own ways as a people. It's our watch to look after our own nation and people.

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People used the same logic to justify slavery over a century and a half ago. Find whatever bit of the Bible that seemed to justify a reactionary status quo in the face of moral imperatives to love their neighbor and treat them with equal dignity. That may be "biblical" in a crude sense, but it's an abuse of the Scriptures.

The deeper truth, revealed in Christ, is that we are one humanity, and our neighbor is whoever we happen to meet, regardless of their race, religion, or nation.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

This is why you can't escape the political, even as a Christian, unless you are willing to abandon every aspect of worldly living.

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Not so. It is possible today just as it was in the time of those who lived in the ways pf the Kingdom, The Way. We can never as humans be free of the sin nature of man, self-awareness, but we can by our fruits show our allegiance is to the Kingdom rather than the self-serving ways of mankind in a world we have made in our own image. This civilization was made by our own will, not God's. God made it clear since the beginning, His Will first, not ours. Jesus reinforced that by twice stating in the Lord's Prayer, His Will would be done, no longer ours allowed.