Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) or Keep the faith until the end?

P1LGR1M said:

Are you suggesting there is sinlessness for believers?

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

If I were among the LOST (loss of salvation teachers), I'd be hoping too. Thankfully, the Word of God has given us enough to understand that, while we will not live sinlessly while we are in this body, the Sacrifice of Christ has resolved the issue of judgment. It is sad to think that so many seem not to grasp something so simple as trusting in Christ for salvation.

So, if you don't mind, can you tell me, have you sinned since you've been saved?

God bless.

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So are you saying that, since “the Sacrifice of Christ has resolved the issue of judgment”, a believer could wantonly persistent in egregious sin and still expect to make it into heaven?

BNR32FAN said:

Oh hey Ivan, did you give up on the last thread? I was really hoping to hear you explain again how those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit can’t lose their inheritance in response to my quote from Ephesians 4:30 to Ephesians 5:6.

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4‬:‭30‬-‭32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

You never responded to this.

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I will.

What some Christians fail to understand, particularly those among the LOST (loss of salvation teachers), is that the death penalty for sin is still active. Death has always been a penalty for sin, always will be while this current universe remains in existence. Christians who practice sin run the risk of physical death.

Secondly, it is obvious here ...

For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

That those described don't have an inheritance, meaning quite simply—they are not born-again believers.

1 Peter 1:3-5

King James Version

​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Notice in v.3 we have been born again by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, not by works which we have done.

Notice in v.4 that our inheritance is incorruptible, undefiled, and will not fade away.

Notice, too, that born-again believers are kept by the power of God through faith, not works. The "salvation" ready to be revealed in the "last time" is in fact the final stage of our Salvation, the glorification of our bodies, and the point where we will in fact be free of sin's presence.

Now, the single issue I believe to be the reason why the LOST are so confused is that they don't actually understand salvation in Christ. They do not understand that the Ordo Salutis goes like this: God sends the Comforter to reveal the Mystery of the Gospel to those who are dead. Yes, I mean dead, even though they have physical life. The LIFE they need is only acquired through the Eternal Indwelling spoken of in John 14:15-23 (as well as throughout Chs.15-17).

John 14:15-17

King James Version

​

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

When the person dead in sins and lacking the LIFE of God believes the Gospel revealed to them (for we know the natural man cannot perceive or understand the spiritual things of God, the Gospel being at the top of the list), they are eternally indwelt by none other than God Himself (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost (John 14:15-23)).

What the LOST also overlook is that the disciples of Christ were not born-again believers, they were Jews living under the Law, and like all other Jews, still awaiting the salvation Prophecy bespoke in regards to Messiah.

But that couldn't happen while Christ remained on Earth:

John 16:7-9
King James Version
​

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

John 7:38-40

King James Version

​

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.

Read carefully, the Holy Ghost was not yet given.

So we have the LOST creating doctrines out of passages like John 15, another prophetic teaching passage, and all the while ignoring the fact that—not a single disciple abided!

Amazing!

No, they didn't abide in Christ, but as Prophecy foretold, they scattered to the wind to save their own necks, Peter going so far as to deny he even knew Jesus Christ.

So just a little advice: before going into a public arena and teaching doctrine that denigrates Christian Doctrine, we would do well to actually study the Bible. I understand how the LOST (loss of salvation teachers) fall into the trap that robs them of their faith in Christ, but at the same time, it is a malady easily cured with diligent study. It's always what we don't know that should encourage humility.

God bless.

fhansen said:

So are you saying that, since “the Sacrifice of Christ has resolved the issue of judgment”, a believer could wantonly persistent in egregious sin and still expect to make it into heaven?

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No, it is you saying that to support the doctrine you want to hold.

What I am saying is that, without fail, we are going to sin after salvation.

Now, have you sinned since you were saved?

fhansen said:

So are you saying that, since “the Sacrifice of Christ has resolved the issue of judgment”, a believer could wantonly persistent in egregious sin and still expect to make it into heaven?

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I will add this, also: what I expect, based on Scripture, is that, should I fall into a pattern of sin in my life, is for God to chastise me, then take my very life if that chastisement doesn't correct.

It is Christ Who first gives salvation, then preserves it.


Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

He begins it, He finishes it. The word finisher means completer.

Being born-again doesn't mean we have turned over a new leaf, it means we have received the LIFE of God through the eternal indwelling of God. That is why we are new creatures.

You can trust HIm. He will not leave or forsake you.

God bless.

Going back to John 15, as I said, the disciples did not abide, because they could not abide at that time. So those who would proof-text loss of salvation, consider the actions of the disciples after being told to abide:

John 16:28-32
King James Version
​

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

John 15 is as prophetic as John 14, 16, and 17. I ask the LOST (loss of salvation teachers)—have you ever noticed that? In your crusade to teach others that they live holy, have you ever once actually placed your proof texts in the context they are found in?

We see the disciples say, "Now you speak plainly. Now we believe you."

Now look at the Lord's response. Do they now believe?

The Lord doesn't give the impression He believes they do.

God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

No, it is you saying that to support the doctrine you want to hold.

What I am saying is that, without fail, we are going to sin after salvation.

Now, have you sinned since you were saved?

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So... you're maintaining that we'll sin after salvation, which I agree with, while still maintaining that it's important that we don't persist in wanton, grave sin? Or what? Where or how does the sacrifice of Christ resolving the issue of judgment come into play here?

Going back to Regeneration, how exactly does one become Born Again?

An interesting discussion takes place between the Lord and a fellow named Nicodemus. Most are familiar with the passage.

Or are they?

John 3 (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Okay, simple enough: if I want to see the Kingdom of God, I must be born again. Apart from that, no one will see the Kingdom of God.


9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


That's a great question:

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


There's the answer folks. Most of us already know this. Most of us understand our salvation is dependent on one thing: Christ, and His death in our stead.



15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


So why do some deny that the LIFE God sent His Son to bestow is in fact eternal/everlasting?

I would suggest the answer is simple, they have not yet understood the relationship with God they have entered. This is due to a number of understandable reason: they sit under harsh preaching. They have a guilty conscience because of their own sin. They have neglected to study God's Word for themselves.

So, what is the answer for them? Play Bible pong and throw proof-texts after theirs? Maybe. But the fact is that spiritual truth has only One source, that is God, we can't change hearts, and changing minds seldom lasts. So, discussions like these are seldom fruitful, but they have their place at times.

God sent His Son that men might have everlasting life. Being born again, according to CHrist, is dependent on the Son of Man being lifted up.

So the one point I'd like to leave the LOST (loss of salvation teachers) with is this: prior to God sending his Son—no one had eternal/everlasting life.

Can you understand the significance of that?

Let me try to explain: Every Old Testament Saint that died prior to the Cross died wihtout having their sins atoned for. Their sins, as well as yours and mine, still awaited redemption. But don't take my word for it:

Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version

​

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Romans 3:23-26

King James Version

​

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


So I'd encourage all that teach Christ's death is not capable of saving, or that He somehow got His wires crossed when He promised that the Comforter would be with us forever, to consider the Old Testament Saint.

Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version
​

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


When Scripture tells us that the Sacrifice of Christ brings completion in regards to remission of sins, how then can we deny that, and teach that the Sacrifice of Christ is yet incomplete?

I hope everyone has a blessed day in the Lord today.

God bless.

P1LGR1M said:

They have a guilty conscience because of their own sin.

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So...we can all ignore sin now, because we believe???

fhansen said:

So...we can all ignore sin now, because we believe???

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You’re the only one suggesting such nonsense.

Have you sinned since you’ve been saved?

fhansen said:

Another poster asked the similiar question: "Who has not sinned since they were saved?" And I answered it in the second half of post #120 in this thread. But to put it simply, yes, nobody's perfect and yet nobody was created to be imperfect, to sin, either. Man fell, becoming alienated from God, and as he did so he lost the self-control that was natural to him as long as he was still subjugated to God and not in the disordered or unjust state of alienation from Him that we're all born into now. This is why reconciliation with God is at the heart of the gospel and Jesus' work. The branch must be connected to the Vine first, before anything else of value can take place.

The will of man is the source of our sin, whereas the flesh just provides much opportunity and fodder for temptation to sin. Sin should make us feel wretched; guilt is a healthy reaction to sin even for unbelievers-but there's a real-life cure for it and that is the deliverance spoken of in Rom 7. God wants every part of us to serve Him, and being in Christ means that we now have the power, the righteousness, to do so. Meanwhile concupiscence, that source of temptation, continues to draw and test and, hopefully, refine us even as it also causes us to stumble at times, potentially to the extent of being distanced from God all over again-and for one simple reason: we're not yet "perfected in love", love being the only thing that can ultimately result in a will that is completely obedient to His will. Our pride, itself, continues to oppose God as it did in Eden, tempting and prompting us to carry on the family tradition of rebellion initiated by Adam. Pride overrides and opposes love by its nature.

It's a journey, a molding, a work of God's that He's very much patient in bringing to fruition, but without absolutely forcing Himself or His ways upon us, meaning that we can jump ship at any time. Either way it's a journey all humans are intended to be on and must be on, the journey from "nobody's perfect" to everybody's perfect-who they were created to be-even if that won't be completely consummated until the next life.

My opinion, FWIW: read Rom 6, 7, and 8 objectively, for yourself, and you'll see that being on that journey, now led by true righteousness, of God, that means the overcoming of sin, is the path we now can and must be on. The new covenant is much more than solely the forgiveness of sin for those who believe, or taking forgiveness for granted, or making us quasi-comfortable in remaining in or returning to sin, especially the kinds of sin that Scripture tells us will definitely exclude us from God's family and kingdom.

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I said...

B Griffin said:

But as Paul goes on to say, that position is untennable be cause people who embrace the triumph of God's grace over their sins have been changed on the inside through their death together with Christ to sin and their ressurection together with Christ from the dead and are now alive to God and dead to sin. They no longer have desires for sin, they don't like sin, and they don't want sin.

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You said...

fhansen said:

So if someone is changed so that they "no longer have desires for sin, they don't like sin, and they don't want sin", then why do believers still sin?

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Your answer to your own question is very similar to mine because you do not seem to object at all to the idea that Christins are repulsed by sin and because you identify the flesh as playing a key role in drawing us away from God towards sin. So, my conclusion is that your objection is not about our distaste for sin or the reason why we still sin.

The original passage that inspired my statements about our death together with Christ, our resurrection together with Christ, and the result that we are now alive to God and dead to sin is as follows...


What is here that causes you to object? Certainly it can't be that our crucifixion and resurrection with Christ resulted in us being dead to sin and alive to God, right?

P1LGR1M said:

You’re the only one suggesting such nonsense.

Have you sinned since you’ve been saved?

Click to expand...

I've already answered that- while you're avoiding my questions.

Dan Perez said:

AND NO ONE Explained what the fruit of the Spirit really is !

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The NT does so. . .which can't be improved upon.

Spiritual Jew said:

We are responsible to keep our faith unto the end. You put the responsibility solely in God's hands

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Are you sure about that?

P1LGR1M said:

Are you suggesting there is sinlessness for believers?

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As there can be no sin in Christ, and believers are "in Christ", the believers in Christ must be sinless.

P1LGR1M said:

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

If I were among the LOST (loss of salvation teachers), I'd be hoping too. Thankfully, the Word of God has given us enough to understand that, while we will not live sinlessly while we are in this body, the Sacrifice of Christ has resolved the issue of judgment. It is sad to think that so many seem not to grasp something so simple as trusting in Christ for salvation.

Click to expand...

I find that POV disturbing.
It doesn't credit Jesus with the ability to actually change mere human children of Adam into children of God.

P1LGR1M said:

So, if you don't mind, can you tell me, have you sinned since you've been saved?
God bless.

Click to expand...

My salvation is still dependent on my remaining faithfully obedient until the day of judgement.
I could fall away, as Ananias and Sapphira did, as they will not be judged worthy of eternal life on the last day.
I have not sinned since my repentance from sin.

B Griffin said:

I said...

You said...

Your answer to your own question is very similar to mine because you do not seem to object at all to the idea that Christins are repulsed by sin and because you identify the flesh as playing a key role in drawing us away from God towards sin. So, my conclusion is that your objection is not about our distaste for sin or the reason why we still sin.

The original passage that inspired my statements about our death together with Christ, our resurrection together with Christ, and the result that we are now alive to God and dead to sin is as follows...

​

3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:3–14 (NASB95)​

What is here that causes you to object? Certainly it can't be that our crucifixion and resurrection with Christ resulted in us being dead to sin and alive to God, right?

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Ok. The question boils down to: Can a believer become persistently engaged in sin so grave that it destoys their realtionship/union/connection/ fellowship with God, and therefore their salvation?

We agree that all continue to sin-and yet that we can also overcome sin by the Spirit, no? Do I, then, as a believer, now become a puppet such that I can no longer sin seriously enough to seriously offend God-and kill myself all over again in the process? Is my will at all involved, IOW? Is some sufficient degree of righteousness guaranteed, or is it an obligation? Is Paul exhorting and warning us that sin must be overcome since, "our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin", because sin will still earn us death (Rom 6:21)? Or is he telling us that the overcoming of sin by becoming a slave to righteousness is simply guaranteed by God, or, alternatively, that sin is not to be held against us in any case?

In the ancient church a balance was struck between sin that still opposes and offends God while not leading to death (because it's not of its nature radically or obviously opposed to and destructive of love of God and neighbor) vs sin that leads to death, and Scripture seems quite adamant about this distinction as well.

fhansen said:

Ok. The question boils down to: Can a believer become persistently engaged in sin so grave that it destoys their realtionship/union/connection/ fellowship with God, and therefore their salvation?

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Yes, but as the writer of Heb 10:39 says..."But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

fhansen said:

We agree that all continue to sin

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No "we" do not all believe that.

fhansen said:

-and yet that we can also overcome sin by the Spirit, no?

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If we can overcome sin, why go back to sinning ?

fhansen said:

Do I, then, as a believer, now become a puppet such that I can no longer sin seriously enough to seriously offend God-and kill myself all over again in the process?

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Not a puppet, but one who loves God, and appreciates all Jesus endured on our behalf, enough to want to please Him all the time.

fhansen said:

Is my will at all involved, IOW? Is some sufficient degree of righteousness guaranteed, or is it an obligation?

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Righteousness is the product of conversion, and of our love for our Saviors.

fhansen said:

Is Paul exhorting and warning us that sin must be overcome since, "our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin", because sin will still earn us death (Rom 6:21)?

Click to expand...

Yes, he is telling us exactly that.

fhansen said:

Or is he telling us that the overcoming of sin by becoming a slave to righteousness is simply guaranteed by God,

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No man can serve two masters, so if one is serving God, they won't be serving sin.
That is what is guaranteed.

fhansen said:

or, alternatively, that sin is not to be held against us in any case?

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Sin is always held against the sinner.

fhansen said:

In the ancient church a balance was struck between sin that still opposes and offends God while not leading to death (because it's not of its nature radically or obviously opposed to and destructive of love of God and neighbor)

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That seems like a straw man POV.
All sin offends God, will be destructive to the love of God and neighbor, and will lead to (the second) death.

fhansen said:

vs sin that leads to death, and Scripture seems quite adamant about this distinction as well.

Click to expand...

Any unrepented of sin will lead to the second death.
The only proof of repentance from sin, is the absence of further sin.

Hoping2 said:

Yes, but as the writer of Heb 10:39 says..."But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."

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Yes, whoever the writer was referring to. And even then it must be qualified as encouragement. Paul does this as well but with a little more info in this particular case:
“yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
Colossians 1:22-23

Hoping2 said:

No "we" do not all believe that.

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Yes, "we" do: myself and the poster I was responding to if I understand them correctly. I have no idea what "you" believe.

Hoping2 said:

If we can overcome sin, why go back to sinning ?

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We have the power and the grace, not necessarily the will-all at once anyway. As we grow, as we become perfected in love, we also become perfected in will. Love produces obedience of God by its nature IOW.

Hoping2 said:

Yes, he is telling us exactly that.

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And that was my point.

Hoping2 said:

No man can serve two masters, so if one is serving God, they won't be serving sin.
That is what is guaranteed.

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And yet believers continue to sin.

Hoping2 said:

Sin is always held against the sinner.

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Yes, my point again. We can't take forgiveness for future sin for granted, while God nonetheless always forgives a truly repentant heart.

Hoping2 said:

That seems like a straw man POV.
All sin offends God, will be destructive to the love of God and neighbor, and will lead to (the second) death.

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Gal 5 and 6, Rev 21 and 22 all speak about the kinds of sin that will definitely exclude us from heaven. A white lie or gossip consitute sins but not on par with rape, tortue and murder, as examples.

Hoping2 said:

Any unrepented of sin will lead to the second death.
The only proof of repentance from sin, is the absence of further sin.

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And yet no one is perfectly sinless in this life.

fhansen said:

Ok. The question boils down to: Can a believer become persistently engaged in sin so grave that it destroys their relationship/union/connection/fellowship with God, and therefore their salvation?

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I don't think it is possible to be possessed by the Spirit of God and be a mass murderer.

fhansen said:

We agree that all continue to sin-and yet that we can also overcome sin by the Spirit, no? Do I, then, as a believer, now become a puppet such that I can no longer sin seriously enough to seriously offend God-and kill myself all over again in the process? Is my will at all involved, IOW?

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Yes, sin-avoidance is only possible if we walk in lock step with the Spirit (Ga 5:25). Our human natures causes us to desire things that are in adversarial opposition to the desires of the Spirit (Ga 5:17), and we only avoid fulfilling the lusts of the flesh when we exercise our wills and choose to walk in the Spirit (Ga 5:16). This gives us a choice and does not make us pupets. A person can fail to walk in the Spirit in small ways and in big ways, but his eternal destiny is not at stake because, "if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law" (Ga 5:18 NKJV).

fhansen said:

Is some sufficient degree of righteousness guaranteed, or is it an obligation? Is Paul exhorting and warning us that sin must be overcome since, "our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin", because sin will still earn us death (Rom 6:21)? Or is he telling us that the overcoming of sin by becoming a slave to righteousness is simply guaranteed by God, or, alternatively, that sin is not to be held against us in any case?

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In Romans 6:6, he is telling us that our old self "was crucified" (past tense) for the purpose of making us no longer slaves to sin (present tense). In In Romans 6:20-22, he is telling us that we were slaves (past tense) of sin (vs 20), that we are now ashamed (present tense) of the sins of our past that produced death (vs 21), and that now, after being set free from sin and having been made a slave of righteousness, we have (present tense) the fruit of holiness (the end of which is eternal life) (vs 22).

It would be hard to explain the verb tenses if in reality a person flip-flops between being a slave of sin and a slave of righteousness, alternately gaining death by sin and gaining eternal life by righteousness. Oh wait. A person earns death (death is a wage that is earned), but eternal life is not earned by righteousness (it is a free gift of God) - Romans 6:23

fhansen said:

In the ancient church a balance was struck between sin that still opposes and offends God while not leading to death (because it's not of its nature radically or obviously opposed to and destructive of love of God and neighbor) vs sin that leads to death, and Scripture seems quite adamant about this distinction as well.

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There is no doubt that some sins are worse than others. But we don't look at our numerous little sins and give ourselves a pass, do we? Our little sins still make us feel guilty before God, right? And they make us feel wretched, right? And we are not in love with our little sins, are we? And we still need His forgiveness for our many little sins, right? Please explain how little sins are disposed of differently than big sins.

P1LGR1M said:

Secondly, it is obvious here ...

For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

That those described don't have an inheritance, meaning quite simply—they are not born-again believers.

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No, see you have to read all of it in context together. Because just 6 sentences before this verse Paul just said that they were sealed with the Holy Spirit. Who is the word “You” referring to in that statement? It’s referring to the people Paul was addressing in chapter 4 verse 30. The people who were sealed with the Holy Spirit. That’s why your interpretation doesn’t work because you’re not taking into consideration who the word “You” is referring to.

fhansen said:

Yes, whoever the writer was referring to. And even then it must be qualified as encouragement. Paul does this as well but with a little more info in this particular case:
“yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
Colossians 1:22-23

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I thank God for the ability to "continue" in holiness and blamelessness.

fhansen said:

Yes, "we" do: myself and the poster I was responding to if I understand them correctly. I have no idea what "you" believe.

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I believe that a repentance from sin can be permanent.

fhansen said:

We have the power and the grace, not necessarily the will-all at once anyway.

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I pity those people.
I hope they get the will to serve God before they die.

fhansen said:

As we grow, as we become perfected in love, we also become perfected in will. Love produces obedience of God by its nature IOW.

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I will agree that the disobedient don't love, God nor neighbor.

fhansen said:

And that was my point.

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Amen.

fhansen said:

And yet believers continue to sin.

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How can they be believers, if they have no belief in what will happen to sinners on the day of judgement ?

fhansen said:

Yes, my point again. We can't take forgiveness for future sin for granted, while God nonetheless always forgives a truly repentant heart.

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Future sin ?
The truly repentant won't commit future sin.
It would show the past repentance from sin to be a lie to God.

fhansen said:

Gal 5 and 6, Rev 21 and 22 all speak about the kinds of sin that will definitely exclude us from heaven. A white lie or gossip consitute sins but not on par with rape, tortue and murder, as examples.

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Hell looks the same from every perspective.

fhansen said:

And yet no one is perfectly sinless in this life.

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Where that true, then nobody loves God.