• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

A Collision of Two Christianities

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
9,614
6,896
70
Midwest
✟355,624.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
“I’m a love your neighbor Christian not a storm the Capitol kind.”
When the word "Christianity" and the Bible are used to promote a specific candidate or political plan you can count me out because it is a distorted and toxic version of something sacred. It is a sacrilege.
 
Upvote 0

Ignatius the Kiwi

Dissident
Mar 2, 2013
8,632
4,616
✟347,318.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I'll stick with the kind of Christianity that actually adheres to historic Christian orthodoxy and doesn't simply rely on quilting people to do what it wants. Liberal Christianity will be absorbed into the non Christian liberal culture and said Christians demonstrate they no longer care about the faith as it was historically practiced. They care about conformity with what they perceive as modern and progressive society. That's it.
 
Upvote 0

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
13,077
5,590
60
Mississippi
✟308,930.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Sounds like faith to me
-
I never said it was not faith, but it is faith in their obedience to Jesus and not faith in the person Jesus.

They believe they will receive eternal life because of following Jesus.
Not because they believe, that belief in Jesus and believing that Jesus is who he says He is The Son of God, is how a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

JEBofChristTheLord

to the Lord
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2005
762
256
56
Topeka, Kansas, USA
Visit site
✟135,507.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It's funny because I've spoken with people who were certain that if we finally just get our hermeneutics right, we'd all agree on the basics. And I just can't help but see that as overly optimistic.
Yes. And not only hyperoptimistic, I'll suggest, but humanist. Human logic, no matter how careful, complex, detailed, or meticulous, is mere human logic, it is not the Word of God.
You can follow Jesus' teachings without ever having saving faith in him, as many do in this world.
One can follow a very few of the teachings of Jesus without ever having saving faith in Him. Nearly all of them, one cannot follow, unless one does have saving faith in Him, which is to say, the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit of God.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Maori Aussie
Upvote 0

JEBofChristTheLord

to the Lord
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2005
762
256
56
Topeka, Kansas, USA
Visit site
✟135,507.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm not sure that most of those Jan 6 people wouldn't have done it with or without attaching it to Christianity.
It's that typical sinful human situation. It's that which was worded to 'the "inalienable" right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'. Ponder that word "inalienable" with the rest, it rides against the sovereignty of God. It's the mob behind Barabbas and Bar Kochba and the dozens or perhaps hundreds of be-alikes, many being described by Josephus. And many, many more mobs. Quasichristian crosses are just the convenient self-justification of the ignorant and the deceived of this particular age.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,454
3,866
✟374,651.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
-
I never said it was not faith, but it is faith in their obedience to Jesus and not faith in the person Jesus.

They believe they will receive eternal life because of following Jesus.
Not because they believe, that belief in Jesus and believing that Jesus is who he says He is The Son of God, is how a person receives God's free gift of Eternal Life.
That sounds much like a distinction without a difference to be honest. Someone encounters Jesus and they're impressed, as they should be, and so seek to follow Him. That's not the same as legalism- or being under the law.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,454
3,866
✟374,651.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
-
This is addressed to believers concerning their fellowship forgiveness toward their Father (God). Un-forgiven sin keeps the believer in a position of being out of fellowship with God.
Sorry, maybe you could explain that better. I really wasn't sure what you're getting at here.
 
Upvote 0

JEBofChristTheLord

to the Lord
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2005
762
256
56
Topeka, Kansas, USA
Visit site
✟135,507.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I hope you will not mind, I'll try it.

There is a pattern, where people "follow Jesus" as one of their tools, to serve other purposes which are not His. For instance, so-called "British-Israelism", or that which is still sometimes sung so proudly in the so-called "Battle Hymn of the Republic" in the northern USA, or some recent declarations by the highest human authorities of certain churches very ancient and not. Perhaps a better word for this behavior is to "invoke Jesus", rather than to "follow Jesus". As if nailing a cross up, or pouring concrete Ten Commandments, can "christianize" anything. One can impress human beings this way. Some actually do use that word "invoke" quite often, for this purpose. But one does not approach God, in this way. One does something very, very different.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: RDKirk
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
41,612
22,294
US
✟1,686,380.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I hope you will not mind, I'll try it.

There is a pattern, where people "follow Jesus" as one of their tools, to serve other purposes which are not His. For instance, so-called "British-Israelism", or that which is still sometimes sung so proudly in the so-called "Battle Hymn of the Republic" in the northern USA, or some recent declarations by the highest human authorities of certain churches very ancient and not. Perhaps a better word for this behavior is to "invoke Jesus", rather than to "follow Jesus". As if nailing a cross up, or pouring concrete Ten Commandments, can "christianize" anything. One can impress human beings this way. Some actually do use that word "invoke" quite often, for this purpose. But one does not approach God, in this way. One does something very, very different.
Yes, following Jesus and putting a Jesus figurine on your dashboard are two different things.

That purpose (which is not His) is to manipulate other people. It's just virtue signalling. It's putting on a morose face while fasting, banging gongs while giving, and praying loudly enough for others to hear.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
13,077
5,590
60
Mississippi
✟308,930.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
That sounds much like a distinction without a difference to be honest. Someone encounters Jesus and they're impressed, as they should be, and so seek to follow Him. That's not the same as legalism- or being under the law.
-
But it still, is not believing in Jesus for a specific reason. Which is to meet the one and only condition God has given to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life (believing in Jesus). I mean The Gospel of John can not be any clearer on this.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
13,077
5,590
60
Mississippi
✟308,930.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Sorry, maybe you could explain that better. I really wasn't sure what you're getting at here.
-
An unbeliever becomes a believer when they believe in Jesus for Eternal Life. That is they become a permanent born again child of God. The believer is now permanently in the family of God and God is the believers Father.

But just like any family, the believer can be a dysfunctional member of the family or they can be in and out of dysfunctional or they can be a highly functional member, that brings honor to God their Father.

A believer who constantly deals with sin and living more like the world, lives in darkness and becomes alienated from God their Father because of sin. The prodigal son parable is an example of a believer becoming out of fellowship with God and leaving fellowship with God and seeking out worldly darkness.


Links to articles on fellowship

The Lost Son – Luke 15:11-32 – Grace Evangelical Society

Fellowship with God and One Another – Grace Evangelical Society

God’s Ability or Inability to Be in the Presence of Sin – Grace Evangelical Society

God Wants Our Fellowship, Not Our Death – Grace Evangelical Society

Does Christ Disapprove of Some Born-Again People? – Grace Evangelical Society
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,454
3,866
✟374,651.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
-
An unbeliever becomes a believer when they believe in Jesus for Eternal Life. That is they become a permanent born again child of God. The believer is now permanently in the family of God and God is the believers Father.

But just like any family, the believer can be a dysfunctional member of the family or they can be in and out of dysfunctional or they can be a highly functional member, that brings honor to God their Father.

A believer who constantly deals with sin and living more like the world, lives in darkness and becomes alienated from God their Father because of sin. The prodigal son parable is an example of a believer becoming out of fellowship with God and leaving fellowship with God and seeking out worldly darkness.


Links to articles on fellowship

The Lost Son – Luke 15:11-32 – Grace Evangelical Society

Fellowship with God and One Another – Grace Evangelical Society

God’s Ability or Inability to Be in the Presence of Sin – Grace Evangelical Society

God Wants Our Fellowship, Not Our Death – Grace Evangelical Society

Does Christ Disapprove of Some Born-Again People? – Grace Evangelical Society
With the theology I'm familiar with and that makes sense to me, alienation from God is the problem, the injustice, that which keeps us out of His family. It's the essence of the state of "orignal sin" that all humans are born into due to Adam's act of disobedience of God which was tantamount to rejecting God as his God. That's why reconciliation with God is the answer: being grafted into the Vine, and faith is the means to acheive that union which itself is the essence of man's justice/righteousness. Faith is to acknowledge God as our God again.

When we sin wantonly, persistently. egregiously, then we've mocked and broken that vital reraltionship; we've turned from it, acting as if we have no use for God again-as if there is no God. Now, if we have a change of heart and come to our senses and repent, running back to the Father like prodigals, then He's already there with open arms to welcome us back into His fellowship.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,454
3,866
✟374,651.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
-
But it still, is not believing in Jesus for a specific reason. Which is to meet the one and only condition God has given to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life (believing in Jesus). I mean The Gospel of John can not be any clearer on this.
Ok, it's crucial IMO that we understand that belief in Jesus is more than believing in and accepting a handfull of truths as a sort of divine litmus test, but rather to believe in Jesus is to believe in God, which is for man to come full circle back from the state of alienation from Him which was a matter of unbelief in God, at its core. Adam heard and heeded everyone but God, heeding the devil, Eve, himself: all created things over the Creator. Faith is to hear and begin to obey God again, after seeing Him in every word spoken and deed performed by His Son.

That was the faith of Abraham, who believed and acted accordingly even without the benefit of the full revelation that we're now blest with by virtue of the advent and incarnation of God the Son. Faith is to enter right, sound relationship with God, the Vine, so that His life may flow through us as it was always meant to. That's our justification, our true righteousness.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
13,077
5,590
60
Mississippi
✟308,930.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Ok, it's crucial IMO that we understand that belief in Jesus is more than believing in and accepting a handfull of truths as a sort of divine litmus test, but rather to believe in Jesus is to believe in God, which is for man to come full circle back from the state of alienation from Him which was a matter of unbelief in God, at its core. Adam heard and heeded everyone but God, heeding the devil, Eve, himself: all created things over the Creator. Faith is to hear and begin to obey God again, after seeing Him in every word spoken and deed performed by His Son.

That was the faith of Abraham, who believed and acted accordingly even without the benefit of the full revelation that we're now blest with by virtue of the advent and incarnation of God the Son. Faith is to enter right, sound relationship with God, the Vine, so that His life may flow through us as it was always meant to. That's our justification, our true righteousness.
-​
You keep adding to belief. It is not a hand full of truths that a person must accept.

Receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life is a very specific belief and this belief has a very specific object John 11 states this, as many other verses in John do.

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

--------------------
And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
 
Upvote 0

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
13,077
5,590
60
Mississippi
✟308,930.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
With the theology I'm familiar with and that makes sense to me, alienation from God is the problem, the injustice, that which keeps us out of His family. It's the essence of the state of "orignal sin" that all humans are born into due to Adam's act of disobedience of God which was tantamount to rejecting God as his God. That's why reconciliation with God is the answer: being grafted into the Vine, and faith is the means to acheive that union which itself is the essence of man's justice/righteousness. Faith is to acknowledge God as our God again.

When we sin wantonly, persistently. egregiously, then we've mocked and broken that vital reraltionship; we've turned from it, acting as if we have no use for God again-as if there is no God. Now, if we have a change of heart and come to our senses and repent, running back to the Father like prodigals, then He's already there with open arms to welcome us back into His fellowship.
-
Some (born again children) never turn back after abandoning their initial belief in Jesus and will spend the rest of their earthly lives living out of fellowship with God. But they still remain a born again child of God.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,454
3,866
✟374,651.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
-​
You keep adding to belief. It is not a hand full of truths that a person must accept.

Receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life is a very specific belief and this belief has a very specific object John 11 states this, as many other verses in John do.
It's more than a specific belief; it's the fact of believing in God, Himself. To believe in Christ has meaning; it implies a knowledge and belief in who God is and what He desires for man, as revealed in and by His Son. To the extent that we see Jesus, we see God. To the extent that we know Jesus, we know God. To the extent that we believe in, hope in, and love Jesus, we believe in, hope in, and love God. That's what John and others are getting at with faith. It's a huge, critical, game-changer for man that itself places him into a state of justice and out of the injustice which is the hallmark of unbelief in God.

"Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him, and so your faith and hope are in God." 1 Pet 1:21

One main reason this is important is because limiting faith to a specific belief about Jesus, if I'm understanding correctly, fails to understand God's full purpose-and potentially reduces man's justice/justification to no more than the possesion of faith, whether as a one time act or a continous one. In truth, faith is the means to man's true personal justice or righteousness, not merely a declared righteousness, as faith means union with God, the Source of any true righteousness for man. This means that man's justification can be compromised by his living unjustly, in sin, meaning that he's walked away from that vital, life-giving relationship. And the bible is quite clear that believers can do such a thing, and that it can result in their death all over again.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
13,077
5,590
60
Mississippi
✟308,930.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
It's more than a specific belief; it's the fact of believing in God, Himself. To believe in Christ has meaning; it implies a knowledge and belief in who God is and what He desires for man, as revealed in and by His Son. To the extent that we see Jesus, we see God. To the extent that we know Jesus, we know God. To the extent that we believe in, hope in, and love Jesus, we believe in, hope in, and love God. That's what John and others are getting at with faith. It's a huge, critical, game-changer for man that itself places him into a state of justice and out of the injustice which is the hallmark of unbelief in God.

"Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him, and so your faith and hope are in God." 1 Pet 1:21
-
God grace and the free gift of Eternal Life is a simple truth, so simple a child can understand this. But yet leave it to humans to complicate the receiving of this free gift. I am sure satan is happy man has polluted God message of Eternal Life by belief in Jesus. Having bogged it down with all kind of obedient actions, no wonder people are shunning The Biblical and God.

What is your problem with God's plan to bring unbelievers into the family of God, by belief in Jesus.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,454
3,866
✟374,651.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
-
God grace and the free gift of Eternal Life is a simple truth, so simple a child can understand this. But yet leave it to humans to complicate the receiving of this free gift. I am sure satan is happy man has polluted God message of Eternal Life by belief in Jesus. Having bogged it down with all kind of obedient actions, no wonder people are shunning The Biblical and God.

What is your problem with God's plan to bring unbelievers into the family of God, by belief in Jesus.
It's a matter first of knowing what God's plan is, and the role of faith in that plan. I think satan would be most happy to know that man’s managed to change the gospel from the means for man to finally become righteous, free from the slavery of sin, to an excuse or reprieve from that obligation. Or in thinking that man has absolute assurance of salvation without regard to how he lives his life. Or that he will, once a believer, automatically live his life in accordance with God’s will, overcoming sin (sufficiently?) without having to strive or make effort, without obligation on his part to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in this work of His, and without the possibility of failing.

Again, if one finds themselves succeeding in loving well, then they’ve got the best evidence that they’re one of His. The rest is just talk or a subjective self-analysis -that one has the proper quantity/quality of faith.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
13,077
5,590
60
Mississippi
✟308,930.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
It's a matter first of knowing what God's plan is, and the role of faith in that plan. I think satan would be most happy to know that man’s managed to change the gospel from the means for man to finally become righteous, free from the slavery of sin, to an excuse or reprieve from that obligation. Or in thinking that man has absolute assurance of salvation without regard to how he lives his life. Or that he will, once a believer, automatically live his life in accordance with God’s will, overcoming sin (sufficiently?) without having to strive or make effort, without obligation on his part to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in this work of His, and without the possibility of failing.

Again, if one finds themselves succeeding in loving well, then they’ve got the best evidence that they’re one of His. The rest is just talk or a subjective self-analysis -that one has the proper quantity/quality of faith.
-
The atonement had been paid for by Jesus on the cross. So why bring up sin Jesus has already paid for the worlds sin (believer and unbeliever). Over coming sin again (sad i have to keep saying this) is not a condition God requires a person to do, to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. Belief in Jesus for Eternal Life is the only condition God requires from a person.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,454
3,866
✟374,651.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
-
The atonement had been paid for by Jesus on the cross. So why bring up sin Jesus has already paid for the worlds sin (believer and unbeliever). Over coming sin again (sad i have to keep saying this) is not a condition God requires a person to do, to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. Belief in Jesus for Eternal Life is the only condition God requires from a person.
The free gift is righteousness, that’s why a believer now has eternal life.
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
” Rom 5:17-21

What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:22

Again, a gospel that separates the need for man to be righteous, walking as a child of God should, from the realization of eternal life, is novel, false, and could only come from the evil one. There’s no question that we’re forgiven. But that’s only meaningful for one who cares, who responds, who turns to Him as a result. That person is washed, cleansed, made new a creation, a slave to righteousness, able to ‘ go, and sin no more’. So what are we going to do with this forgiveness, this grace? Here’s an example of what we’re do-and the difference it makes:

For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.” Matt 6:14-15
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0