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Canadian Pastor accused of hate-motivated crimes at drag storytime won't commit to staying away from LGBTQ events

essentialsaltes

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Derek Reimer remains in custody because he won't sign his release conditions


Derek Reimer, 36, faces criminal charges of mischief and causing a disturbance as well as six harassment charges under the City of Calgary's public behaviour bylaw.

Reimer is accused of shouting homophobic and transphobic slurs at children and parents who were attending a Reading with Royalty event on Feb. 25.

The family-friendly storytimes at public libraries are led by local drag queens or kings, and children are invited to dress in their best outfit, cape or crown.

Just after 11 a.m. on Feb. 25, Reimer and others "aggressively entered a library classroom," according to a Calgary Police Service release.

They are accused of "shouting homophobic and transphobic slurs at the children and parents in attendance, scaring the children while causing a disturbance and subsequently refusing to leave."

--

Reimer appears to be the moving force behind Mission7, which appears to be a church devoted to street evangelism, protests, and antivaccine rhetoric.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I saw one video of the exchange (or maybe it's a different incident and he's known for these antics and it's happened several time)

I didn't see any "slurs" per say (or at least what I would consider slurs), they were more less just "crazy guy yelling about the "sin of homosexuality" "sinners repent" etc"

Sounds like the reason he's refusing to sign (according to his defense attorney) is that the stipulations would be impossible to satisfy, and given the vague way it's worded, it would be a valid concern that getting out on those stipulations could open up the door for getting "set up" to violate the terms.

  • He is not permitted to have contact in person or over social media with any identified LGBTQ community member.
  • He is not allowed to attend or be within 200 metres of an LGBTQ2S+ community event.

The 2nd one is pretty easy to abide by, but the first one seems like it'd be impossible to comply with, as one isn't going to know if the gas station attendant they're walking in to pay is gay or not and there's no way of knowing who you're replying to online. And we've seen some cases here states-side where as soon as these types of anti-gay folks become "well known", advocates on the other side add fuel to the fire by making it their mission to entrap them.

Canada also has some areas where freedom of protest and freedom of speech is very one-sided.

And while this guy isn't the type of person I'd want to personally associate with, Gondek's "street harassment bylaws" should be viewed as problematic by anyone (on either side) who claims to uphold free expression.

If the law were applied equally, it would pretty much squash all public forms of protest.
Fines and potential jail time for "Public communication in a manner that could cause offence or humiliation"
 

Ana the Ist

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Good for him. Canada has been marching like gestapo towards authoritarianism for years now. Peterson warned against the news laws that compelled speech would lead to prison....and he was right. At the same time, they threw away the right to protest when a bunch of truckers effectively protested.

Rocketing towards tyranny.
 
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Bradskii

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...but the first one seems like it'd be impossible to comply with, as one isn't going to know if the gas station attendant they're walking in to pay is gay or not and there's no way of knowing who you're replying to online.

Get real. Nobody is interested in the slightest if his waiter or postman is gay, or the guy that pumps his gas. I think it's blazingly obvious the type of interaction that's being talked about.

The guy is a Class A moron. I have to say that Canadians are more placid than Australians. Which is a plus. But that guy would be the one needing to call the police if that had happened in my area of the world. I wouldn't have put money on him leaving unscathed.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Get real. Nobody is interested in the slightest if his waiter or postman is gay, or the guy that pumps his gas. I think it's blazingly obvious the type of interaction that's being talked about.
Then it seems like if it's a very specific interaction type he's to refrain from, a court order for release conditions should mirror that specificity, correct?
 
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Bradskii

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Then it seems like if it's a very specific interaction type he's to refrain from, a court order for release conditions should mirror that specificity, correct?
It seems that you'd need it spelled out. But they won't be locking him up if his taxi driver turns out to be bisexual.
 
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FireDragon76

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I saw one video of the exchange (or maybe it's a different incident and he's known for these antics and it's happened several time)

I didn't see any "slurs" per say (or at least what I would consider slurs), they were more less just "crazy guy yelling about the "sin of homosexuality" "sinners repent" etc"

"Sinner" is a slur in that context. People forget that "sinner" has its origins as a slur, due to 2,000 years of pious Christian usage within a sacramental context. A public library is not a church, and Mr. Reimer had every intention of it being an attack on the performers, a call to social ostracism and marginalization.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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It seems that you'd need it spelled out. But they won't be locking him up if his taxi driver turns out to be bisexual.
I know that's the "perceived intent", but ambiguity isn't a good thing in a legal sense. (especially when there's certain activists out there that practice the "axe to grind" method of activism who would be more than happy to intentionally try to set him up)

"Well, you know what they mean" wouldn't be acceptable legal standard for any other court order even in a regular case. Even less so when it's pretty evident that the local government officials have a particular interest in this case.
 
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Bradskii

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I know that's the "perceived intent", but ambiguity isn't a good thing in a legal sense. (especially when there's certain activists out there that practice the "axe to grind" method of activism who would be more than happy to intentionally try to set him up)

"Well, you know what they mean" wouldn't be acceptable legal standard for any other court order even in a regular case. Even less so when it's pretty evident that the local government officials have a particular interest in this case.
You might find this a difficult concept to grasp, but common sense is used in making decisions by judges. Not everything in a minor case like this needs detailing and defined to the nth degree. He knows what he's not meant to do. You and I know it. His attorney knows it (and has probably explained it yet again in terms that the guy will be able to follow).The court knows it. And the police know it. This isn't a complex legal matter. He's been a naughty boy and he's been told to stop.

He's not going to get banged up because he asked a gay barista for a flat white. Let's keep a grip on reality here.
 
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Ana the Ist

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You might find this a difficult concept to grasp, but common sense is used in making decisions by judges. Not everything in a minor case like this needs detailing and defined to the nth degree. He knows what he's not meant to do. You and I know it. His attorney knows it (and has probably explained it yet again in terms that the guy will be able to follow).The court knows it. And the police know it. This isn't a complex legal matter. He's been a naughty boy and he's been told to stop.

A naughty boy? He voiced an opinion.

He's not going to get banged up because he asked a gay barista for a flat white. Let's keep a grip on reality here.
Depends upon the judge....

There's the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. You can defer all you want to the spirit of the law....but if the judge defers to the letter, you're wrong.

It's a badly written law.
 
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Bradskii

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A naughty boy? He voiced an opinion.

Making further posts to me will be a waste of your time. I have no interest in reading anything you write so I have now availed myself of the forum facility that ensures that it won't happen.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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You might find this a difficult concept to grasp, but common sense is used in making decisions by judges. Not everything in a minor case like this needs detailing and defined to the nth degree. He knows what he's not meant to do. You and I know it. His attorney knows it (and has probably explained it yet again in terms that the guy will be able to follow).The court knows it. And the police know it. This isn't a complex legal matter. He's been a naughty boy and he's been told to stop.

He's not going to get banged up because he asked a gay barista for a flat white. Let's keep a grip on reality here.
I assure you my concerns about vagueness in court and judicial proceedings aren't rooted in comprehension difficulty.

You're implying that's it's a common-sense unspoken agreement of "we all know what they meant by that". In a normal societal environment, you may be right. But, it's not a judge's job to employ "common sense", legal specificity is key to that profession.

If someone's cussing, and someone else says "hey watch your mouth!"...in most societal interactions, we know what's meant by that and it's common sense. However, if the terms of a person's jail release is simply "watch your mouth", it's understandable that they'd want some specifics on what exactly are the list of words they shouldn't be saying. The implications are different. In a normal societal interaction, if I use the R-rated word for something, and someone tells me to watch my mouth, if I switch to the PG version of the word and they still don't like it, worst thing that happens is they say "hey, I thought I said watch your mouth". If it's a condition of your jail release, it means you go back to jail.

Also, saying "a minor case like this" is a tad misleading. If it's "minor", and if the judge viewed this as "minor", then he wouldn't be sitting in jail with a bail amount of $3,000 and release conditions. (for violation of a law that in and of itself, was written very vaguely)


But if the release conditions are simple common sense and non-complex concepts (and "everyone knows what they are") then it shouldn't be that hard craft the verbiage to reflect that instead of the vague statement, right? If everything's on the up & up and the Calgary administration isn't planning on trying to use ambiguity in their favor, then it shouldn't be a problem.

I can do it now.

Instead of "not permitted to have contact in person or over social media with any identified LGBTQ2S+ community member"

Go with "not permitted initiate contact with anyone they know to be in the LGBTQ2S+ community on any matter relating to sex, gender, orientation, or religion"

Took a grand total of 4 extra seconds to type the latter. It satisfies the "common sense understanding", and provides legal protection to the accused to prevent legal abuses going in the other direction.



The entire law itself is symptomatic of a deeper societal issue that appears to be happening. Where, instead of earnest debate over issues, it's easier just to criminalize the speech that offends the voter bloc a politician is trying to suck up to and pretend as if people in the opposing ideological camp aren't legitimate participants in their democracy. It's the legal equivalent of blocking someone on a message board (or reaching for the report button) because it's easier just to ignore criticisms (or punish someone for making them) than provide a solid rebuttal against them.
 
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Bradskii

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Also, saying "a minor case like this" is a tad misleading. If it's "minor", and if the judge viewed this as "minor", then he wouldn't be sitting in jail with a bail amount of $3,000 and release conditions. (for violation of a law that in and of itself, was written very vaguely)

Three grand is chump change. And he's sitting in jail not because because he can't pull bail but because he's such a moron he won't agree to the conditions for his release. Me? I'd let him sit there and give him 3 square a day for as long as he wants. My guess is that he'll find plenty of opportunity to enjoy the company of people who are not strictly heterosexual while he's there.

Your opinion is noted.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Three grand is chump change.
For those of us who make six-figures that may be the case. $3k can be a big deal for some folks.

Perhaps Canada is known for having higher bail amounts for certain things. But down here, there's people who get busted with DUIs who get lower bail amounts than that. (and a DUI represents a much greater risk to society than "idiot yelling in a library")
And he's sitting in jail not because because he can't pull bail but because he's such a moron he won't agree to the conditions for his release. Me? I'd let him sit there and give him 3 square a day for as long as he wants. My guess is that he'll find plenty of opportunity to enjoy the company of people who are not strictly heterosexual while he's there.
What's the penalty (or what's the implications) if he were to get busted violating those terms? And with the way they're vaguely worded, if some activists showed up on the sidewalk outside his house or place of employment and basically goaded him into yelling something, would he get in trouble for that?

I say this because it wouldn't be the first time activists got wind of a court ruling, and went out of their way to try to entrap the person in question to prove a point.
Your opinion is noted.
My opinion on what? That the law was vaguely worded?

"Public communication in a manner that could cause offence or humiliation"

...I'm pretty sure any sensible person would agree that's pretty vague. Per my earlier post, a law that vague would pretty much be the death of the right to protest for people and causes on both sides.
 
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Bradskii

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For those of us who make six-figures that may be the case. $3k can be a big deal for some folks.

Perhaps Canada is known for having higher bail amounts for certain things. But down here, there's people who get busted with DUIs who get lower bail amounts than that. (and a DUI represents a much greater risk to society than "idiot yelling in a library")

What's the penalty (or what's the implications) if he were to get busted violating those terms? And with the way they're vaguely worded, if some activists showed up on the sidewalk outside his house or place of employment and basically goaded him into yelling something, would he get in trouble for that?

I say this because it wouldn't be the first time activists got wind of a court ruling, and went out of their way to try to entrap the person in question to prove a point.

My opinion on what? That the law was vaguely worded?

"Public communication in a manner that could cause offence or humiliation"

...I'm pretty sure any sensible person would agree that's pretty vague. Per my earlier post, a law that vague would pretty much be the death of the right to protest for people and causes on both sides.
Your opinions are again noted.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Your opinions are again noted.
Friendly bit of advice...

While I understand that some people have certain "crutches" they rely on in debates (for instance, mine is trying to find analogies and using the adverb form of "for instance"), it might be worth trying to aim a little higher than simply repeating "you opinion is noted" (as the search results would indicate gets leaned on quite a bit)

A rhetorical crutch is pretty normal...most people have them in some form or another, but ones that give the impression that one is dodging questions or convey avoidance can tend to come off looking a tad weak.

Just some food for thought.


Yeah yeah...I know my opinion is noted on this as well lol.
 
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Bradskii

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Friendly bit of advice...

While I understand that some people have certain "crutches" they rely on in debates (for instance, mine is trying to find analogies and using the adverb form of "for instance"), it might be worth trying to aim a little higher than simply repeating "you opinion is noted" (as the search results would indicate gets leaned on quite a bit)

A rhetorical crutch is pretty normal...most people have them in some form or another, but ones that give the impression that one is dodging questions or convey avoidance can tend to come off looking a tad weak.

Just some food for thought.


Yeah yeah...I know my opinion is noted on this as well lol.

I respond in detail when I think something worthwhile has been posted and I feel there is some value to be added in me responding.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I respond in detail when I think something worthwhile has been posted and I feel there is some value to be added in me responding.

Okay, well, allow me to add a little context that may make my rebuttal a little more "reply worthy".

The reason why it's fair to be hesitant about vague release conditions and vague judicial orders is because there have been noteworthy cases where people on the opposing side of an ideologically charged case have gone out of their way to "set the other person up".

The high profile case here in the US involving the Masterpiece Cake Shop (the one where the guy didn't want to customize a wedding cake for a gay wedding).

Literally hours after the court agreed to hear the appeals case, an activist went into his shop and asked for a "gender transition celebration" cake, and was even open about the fact that they were deliberately abusing a loophole in the verbiage of the judicial ruling as a means to "test it".
"Scardina said during a trial that the attempt to order the cake was a test" ...of course, Scardina's lawyer sugar-coated it by saying "Scardina’s lawyer, Paula Greisen, claimed the call was not a “setup” but rather “more of calling someone’s bluff.

And to put in perspective:
The activist Autumn Scardina entered the cake shop (a person who he obviously knew was transgender), asked for a cake...he said sure...they said I want a cake that's blue on the outside and pink on the inside, he agreed to it, then they specifically went out of their way to go into great detail to explain "I want this cake to celebrate my gender transition". Clearly they were going to go further and further until they finally found a way to make him refuse, and voila, he ended up back in court and got slapped with a fine.


There's no reason to think that an activist in Calgary couldn't be every bit as much vindictive and petty as an activist in Colorado.


And I certainly wouldn't trust the Canadian criminal justice system more than the US system on matters of speech and expression.

We're literally talking about the same country that just had a case that had to go to court over someone getting arrested for "criminal harassment" for flipping someone the bird after they called him a bad name. Thankfully the judge ruled the right way, but the fact that the country can arrest someone for flipping up the middle finger and they were even taken into custody in the first place doesn't give me a lot of confidence.
 
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Bradskii

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Okay, well, allow me to add a little context that may make my rebuttal a little more "reply worthy".
I'm sorry, it still isn't. But here's something in passing so I'm not wasting my time posting this.

The last few days I have been up to the back teeth with people making mountains out of molehills on any number of threads. And this complaint about the exact wording of his bail conditions is another molehill. The thread is nothing of real interest. It's just some idiot making a nuisance of himself and giving religion a bad name. Maybe worth a comment or two, but that's about it.

The fact that it has devolved into a discussion about the semantics of his bail conditions really holds no interest to me. Cakes and the Canadian judicial system hold even less interest as regards this case.

I hope the length of this response fulfills some criteria which 'thanks for your opinion' seemed not to. Either way, there won't be another...
 
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