Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

rwb said:

why is the Gospel still be sent unto all the nations of the earth with great tribulation coming for many who believe?

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we know Jesus wasn’t talking literally about the gospel going to all 7 continents in the OD, but hyperbolically, as was common in ancient times. We can deduce this because:

1.) it would occur within his audiences generation (matthew 24:34)

2.) the Greek word for “earth” In matthew 24:14 is οἰκουμένη, which was commonly used for the known (Roman) world, not the entire globe.

“properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.”

3.) Paul confirms it went to every creature under heaven and to the whole world prior to the fall of the temple and great tribulation of Jerusalem. (Romans 10:18, Colossians 1:23).


Jesus speaking hyperbolically and Paul declaring it fulfilled in the first century doesn’t preclude the gospel from continuing to spread because there is no end to the “increase” of his government

Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end

And just to add, the great tribulation OF JERUSALEM (old covenant) is no longer occurring. It ended.

claninja said:

SO, when we consider the time statements of the apostles in regards to the coming of Christ ( “in a little while” , “without delay” , “at hand”, “end of the ages”, “last hour”, etc…) all before the temple fell, AND Paul declaring that man of sin’s “revealing” was being restrained before the temple fell, lawlessness was already at work before the temple fell, the man of sin’s presence was existing by the works of Satan before the temple fell, and God was already sending a strong delusion before the temple fell, WHY would Paul’s audience understand your options 2 or 3 as the best option?

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Because we have the benefit of hindsight and the Book of Revelation.
Hindsight, of the last nearly 2000 years of the Christian era.
Revelation, the plainly stated: unfulfilled Prophesies about all the end times events.

keras said:

Because we have the benefit of hindsight and the Book of Revelation.
Hindsight, of the last nearly 2000 years of the Christian era.
Revelation, the plainly stated: unfulfilled Prophesies about all the end times events.

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hindsight has given us 2 main benefits:

1.) the temple fell in 70ad within his audience’s generation as predicted, confirming Jesus is who he said he was.

2.) all other 2nd coming predictions by futurists after the first century have failed. 100% percent failure rate. For a sample of those failed predictions see:


(Predictions and claims for the Second Coming - Wikipedia)

And

(List of dates predicted for apocalyptic events - Wikipedia)

A major problem with how preterists interpret the Olivet Discourse is that there was no end of any age in 70 AD. So, Jesus could not possibly have been talking about 70 AD in the parts of the Olivet Discourse that relate to His second coming at the end of the age.

Preterists try to say that the old covenant age ended in 70 AD, but that is absolutely false. For one thing, there are no references to an old covenant age and new covenant age in scripture. When Jesus contrasted this age with the age to come, it had nothing to do with the old and new covenants (Luke 20:34-36).

The old covenant ended when Christ died on the cross and the end of the old covenant and beginning of the new covenant was signified by the tearing of the temple veil in two. That showed that people would have direct communication with God from then on rather than needing to hear from the high priest after he made an animal sacrifice at the temple and went behind the veil into the Holy of Holies to communicate with God there, as was the case in the old covenant.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

This passage clearly shows that Jesus nailed the old covenant, with its burdensome ordinances and rituals, to the cross. Both preterists and futurists fail to see that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus talked both about a past event (past to us) that occurred in and around Jerusalem in 70 AD, ongoing events (wars, famines, earthquakes) and a future global event that will occur when He returns at the end of this temporal age.

claninja said:

we know Jesus wasn’t talking literally about the gospel going to all 7 continents in the OD, but hyperbolically, as was common in ancient times. We can deduce this because:

1.) it would occur within his audiences generation (matthew 24:34)

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Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


Obviously, verse 36 is involving what verse 34 is involving. To apply verse 36 to any events in the first century makes zero sense. If verse 36 is not involving the first century, but that verse 34 is, it makes even less sense, since this would have Jesus all over the place here. One minute He is meaning events pertaining to the first century(verse 34), the next minute is meaning events pertaining to beyond that of the first century(verse 36). Thus Jesus is all over the place and is confusing us rather than enlightening us.

claninja said:

2.) the Greek word for “earth” In matthew 24:14 is οἰκουμένη, which was commonly used for the known (Roman) world, not the entire globe.

“properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.”

3.) Paul confirms it went to every creature under heaven and to the whole world prior to the fall of the temple and great tribulation of Jerusalem. (Romans 10:18, Colossians 1:23).


Jesus speaking hyperbolically and Paul declaring it fulfilled in the first century doesn’t preclude the gospel from continuing to spread because there is no end to the “increase” of his government

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But what about when that same Greek word is used in passages such as the following? How do these following passages further strengthen what you are arguing?



Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world(oikoumene) in a moment of time.


Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world(oikoumene), to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth(oikoumene): for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

As to Luke 21:26, Matthew 24:29 records that this is immediately after the tribulation of those days. And both Matthew 24 and Luke 21 record that this precedes the coming that follows it. What coming in any sense already followed after what is recorded in Luke 21:26? Obviously, regardless what sense one takes this coming to be involving, it is still a coming that never occurs during the tribulation of those days, but is a coming that occurs after the tribulation of those days, and after Luke 21:26 is meaning.

claninja said:

hindsight has given us 2 main benefits:

1.) the temple fell in 70ad within his audience’s generation as predicted, confirming Jesus is who he said he was.

2.) all other 2nd coming predictions by futurists after the first century have failed. 100% percent failure rate. For a sample of those failed predictions see:

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1/ You make a serious mistake, Jesus did not refer to the generation present in Matthew 24:34, He referred to the people living when the fig tree buds; ....in that way, you may know that the end is near; at the very door! Matthew 24:32-33
Far from 'budding' in the first Century, Judah. the Jews, symbolized by the fig tree, was decimated and dispersed.
2/ That some people, usually honest and well-meaning, have made foolish predictions, is no reason that the Return isn't going to happen and all the Prophesied events before that glorious Day.

It's hard to understand your attitude. You seem quite bitter and have very unpleasant responses to anyone who believes that we do have a future. That future for the faithful Christians, is for an amazing time as the Lord protects and blesses His people thru all the well described and prophesied end times.

robycop3 said:

Horse Feathers. Jesus has NOT come in a cloud in power & great glory yet. Nor have "these things" yet begun to come to pass.
NEXT PITCH!

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You understand that this kind of hyperbole language was used quite often in the Old testament in prophecies that were not about the end of the world?

DavidPT said:

Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


Obviously, verse 36 is involving what verse 34 is involving. To apply verse 36 to any events in the first century makes zero sense. If verse 36 is not involving the first century, but that verse 34 is, it makes even less sense, since this would have Jesus all over the place here. One minute He is meaning events pertaining to the first century(verse 34), the next minute is meaning events pertaining to beyond that of the first century(verse 36). Thus Jesus is all over the place and is confusing us rather than enlightening us.

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I agree. So, with this in mind, how exactly can what happened in 70 AD be considered something of which no one knew the day or hour until it happened? That is not the case. Jesus told them when they would know it was about to happen when He told them to flee once they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies. So, verse 36 can't possibly apply to what happened back then.

But what about when that same Greek word is used in passages such as the following? How do these following passages further strengthen what you are arguing?



Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world(oikoumene) in a moment of time.


Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world(oikoumene), to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth(oikoumene): for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

As to Luke 21:26, Matthew 24:29 records that this is immediately after the tribulation of those days. And both Matthew 24 and Luke 21 record that this precedes the coming that follows it. What coming in any sense already followed after what is recorded in Luke 21:26? Obviously, regardless what sense one takes this coming to be involving, it is still a coming that never occurs during the tribulation of those days, but is a coming that occurs after the tribulation of those days, and after Luke 21:26 is meaning.

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That is a good point. Preterists have His coming as causing the tribulation that occurred in 70 AD, but scripture says His coming follows "the tribulation of those days". So, Matthew 24:29 can't be referring to a coming of Christ in the way that preterists understand it since they don't have Him coming after the tribulation is over, but rather they have His coming as causing the tribulation. I know this is what you are already saying, but I'm just trying to add some clarification in case anyone isn't seeing the point.

DavidPT said:

Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Obviously, verse 36 is involving what verse 34 is involving. To apply verse 36 to any events in the first century makes zero sense. If verse 36 is not involving the first century, but that verse 34 is, it makes even less sense, since this would have Jesus all over the place here. One minute He is meaning events pertaining to the first century(verse 34), the next minute is meaning events pertaining to beyond that of the first century(verse 36). Thus Jesus is all over the place and is confusing us rather than enlightening us.

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Well, The good news for your view is, It holds that Vs 33 actually means:
"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors to God, but still thousands of years away for men".

Problem solved.

renniks said:

You understand that this kind of hyperbole language was used quite often in the Old testament in prophecies that were not about the end of the world?

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Of course he does, he just claims that it has a polar opposite meaning in the NT.

parousia70 said:

Well, The good news for your view is, It holds that Vs 33 actually means:
"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors to God, but still thousands of years away for men".

Problem solved.

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Why act as if Jesus couldn't have predicted prophetic events that span thousands of years? When we get to verse 33 He is meaning at the end of these events. The end of these events didn't take place 2000 years ago.

And here is what it says in Luke 21 about this same event.

Luke 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.


This is what is at the doors---the kingdom of God. What does that have to do with what happened to Jerusalem, the temple, and unbelieving Jews, in 70 AD?

DavidPT said:

Obviously, verse 36 is involving what verse 34 is involving. To apply verse 36 to any events in the first century makes zero sense.

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Jesus is using a common wedding metaphor. In ancient Hebrew customs, the bride knew the general time frame (about a year for the betrothal) , but not the specific “day nor hour” that the father would send the bridegroom in the middle of the night to come for his bride. Thus while the apostles’ generation didn’t know the exact day nor hour, they did know the general time frame: “this generation will not pass away”. Not knowing the day nor hour, doesn’t mean not knowing the general time frame If we understand Jesus’ use of the marriage motif.

hence, it makes sense that the epistles contain “soon” or “at hand” language in regards to the coming of the lord (James 5:8, Hebrews 10:37, 1 peter 4:7 ).

DavidPT said:

One minute He is meaning events pertaining to the first century(verse 34), the next minute is meaning events pertaining to beyond that of the first century(verse 36). Thus Jesus is all over the place and is confusing us rather than enlightening us.

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absolutely agree it doesn’t any make sense for Jesus to be thousands of years all over the place. It’s definitely confusing to 1.) ignore Audience relevance, 2.) change the use of genea, and 3.) split the olivet discourse into 2 different events separated by 1000s of years. 4.) ignore the time statements of in the epistles. 5.) force the text to be about the visible and bodily 2nd advent of Christ, when instead the passage only alludes to Daniel 7:13-14 and the temple’s destruction.

DavidPT said:

But what about when that same Greek word is used in passages such as the following? How do these following passages further strengthen what you are arguing?



Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world(oikoumene) in a moment of time.


Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world(oikoumene), to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth(oikoumene): for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

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what about them?

Why should i understand it differently than the definition?

3625 (oikouménē) literally means "the inhabited (land)." It was "originally used by the Greeks to denote the land inhabited by themselves, in contrast with barbarian countries; afterward, when the Greeks became subject to the Romans, 'the entire Roman world;' still later, for 'the whole inhabited world' " (WS, 140,141).]


and use?

Luke 2:1 In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world (oikoumene) should be registered.

And paul declaring it has gone to the ends of the oikoumene?

Romans 10:18 18But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world (oikoumene).”i

DavidPT said:

Obviously, regardless what sense one takes this coming to be involving, it is still a coming that never occurs during the tribulation of those days, but is a coming that occurs after the tribulation of those days, and after Luke 21:26 is meaning.

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I disagree for several reasons:

1.) parallel passages: what will be the SIGN these things are accomplished (temple destruction) = SIGN of your coming at the end of the age. In other words the sign of the temple destruction is the sign of the coming of Christ.

Mark 13:4 Tell us, 1.) when will these things be, and 2.) what will be the sign when all these things are about to be accomplished?

Matthew 24:3 Tell us, 1.) when will these things be, and 2.) what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

2.) the warning of fleeing due to the AOD occurs around the same time as the revealing of the son of man

Luke 17:30 30so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.

Matthew 24:15-18 So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.

3.) Christ was already coming on clouds in fulfillment of Daniel 7:13-14.

Matthew 26:64 64Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and
coming on the clouds of heaven.

revelation 1:7 7Behold, he is (present tense: not future tense) coming with the clouds, and every eye will (future tense) see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wailb on account of him. Even so. Amen.

keras said:

1/ You make a serious mistake, Jesus did not refer to the generation present in Matthew 24:34, He referred to the people living when the fig tree buds; ....in that way, you may know that the end is near; at the very door! Matthew 24:32-33
Far from 'budding' in the first Century, Judah. the Jews, symbolized by the fig tree, was decimated and dispersed.
2/ That some people, usually honest and well-meaning, have made foolish predictions, is no reason that the Return isn't going to happen and all the Prophesied events before that glorious Day.

It's hard to understand your attitude. You seem quite bitter and have very unpleasant responses to anyone who believes that we do have a future. That future for the faithful Christians, is for an amazing time as the Lord protects and blesses His people thru all the well described and prophesied end times.

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i have a distaste for failed and false predictions, which have hurt many believers’ faith.

claninja said:

i have a distaste for failed and false predictions, which have hurt many believers’ faith.

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So have I.
But those failures do not mean the end time Prophesies will never come to pass.
We are told to be ready for the Lord to take action, in a world that is once again: As in the days of Noah.

I promote what the Prophets have plainly told us will happen. And even though I have considered it to be imminent for several years now, I remain convinced that I will see very dramatic events and then the glorious Return of Jesus.
Daniel 12:10 says that a few people will know God's plans for our future. Soon to unfold and surely to have some idea of what must happen and what part we Christians will play, would be desirable?

DavidPT said:

This is what is at the doors---the kingdom of God. What does that have to do with what happened to Jerusalem, the temple, and unbelieving Jews, in 70 AD?

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According to Jesus, everything:

Matthew 21:40-45
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.

keras said:

So have I.
But those failures do not mean the end time Prophesies will never come to pass.
We are told to be ready for the Lord to take action, in a world that is once again: As in the days of Noah.

I promote what the Prophets have plainly told us will happen. And even though I have considered it to be imminent for several years now, I remain convinced that I will see very dramatic events and then the glorious Return of Jesus.
Daniel 12:10 says that a few people will know God's plans for our future. Soon to unfold and surely to have some idea of what must happen and what part we Christians will play, would be desirable?

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The apostles also said it was “imminent” and “soon”. So when YOU say “imminent” and “soon”, should I understand that as thousands of years? Or Do you believe you have more understanding about “imminent” and “soon” than the apostles?

claninja said:

The apostles also said it was “imminent” and “soon”. So when YOU say “imminent” and “soon”, should I understand that as thousands of years? Or Do you believe you have more understanding about “imminent” and “soon” than the apostles?

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Keras has been abundantly clear that His trump card is hindsight.

claninja said:

The apostles also said it was “imminent” and “soon”. So when YOU say “imminent” and “soon”, should I understand that as thousands of years? Or Do you believe you have more understanding about “imminent” and “soon” than the apostles?

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parousia70 said:

Keras has been abundantly clear that His trump card is hindsight.

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Yes, hindsight, in the passing of nearly 2000 years since Jesus, trumps any preterist nonsense.
WE are the generation who saw the fig tree bud; the establishment of the Jewish state of Israel and I, provided natural death does not overtake me, expect to see all the end time Prophesies come to pass.

Things will happen as so well described and to deny that, is to question the veracity of all the Bible.

parousia70 said:

Keras has been abundantly clear that His trump card is hindsight.

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keras said:

Yes, hindsight, in the passing of nearly 2000 years since Jesus, trumps

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@claninja, told ya so.

parousia70 said:

@claninja, told ya so.

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@parousia70 how do we obtain this power of hindsight, so that we too may have more knowledge than the apostles?