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Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

parousia70

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@parousia70 how do we obtain this power of hindsight, so that we too may have more knowledge than the apostles?

Clearly, we must put down our Bibles and turn on our TV's, look in the news papers, engross ourselves in social media, as they are the superior messengers of prophetic truth that the apostles did not have the benefit of.

Only then will we, like @keras, be blessed with the gift of hindsight that proves the apostles were wrong.
 
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keras

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hindsight - The ability to understand after something has happened; its significance and meaning.

Sad, really that some are unable to do this.
Neither the Apostles or the historical facts are wrong. But thinking that we are in the Millennium now, that the Prophesies about a new Temple and all the end times events are over, is what is seriously wrong!
 
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Timtofly

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And when the church in private asked Jesus when the temple would be destroyed, Is it your position that he never answered that question to them then?
That He simply left His disciples to guess which question He was answering?
They asked more than just what Jesus answered about the Temple at the Temple.
 
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Timtofly

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I completely disagree. What is this based on?

How are you coming to this conclusion?

Where are you getting this from?

Just because Luke didn't spell it out as to what was said when doesn't mean that Jesus had to still be at the temple when He said what is recorded after Luke 21:6. A missing detail does not mean that it's a completely different discourse. Obviously, Mark 13 doesn't have all the same details as Matthew 24, but you have no trouble discerning that Mark 13 is the same Olivet Discourse as Matthew 24.

You say that Luke didn't record the questions the same as Matthew, as if that's evidence that they weren't recording the same discourse. So, do you think Mark 13 is an entirely different discourse from Matthew 24 as well since the questions are not recorded the same in Mark 13 as they are in Matthew 24, either? The difference is wording is simply due to them being 3 different people. It doesn't mean they all wrote about a different discourse.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 all talk about the disciples marveling at the temple buildings with Jesus then telling them that the temple buildings would be destroyed with no stone left upon another. Do you think that happened more than once? As if they would have forgotten that Jesus already told them that the temple buildings would be destroyed. Trust me, that isn't something they would have forgotten. And in each case (in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21) Jesus telling them that the temple buildings would be destroyed is followed up by the disciples asking Jesus when that would happen. Again, did that happen twice that they asked Him when that would happen? Of course not. So, what you're saying here makes no sense.
Luke said Jesus was at the temple several days, early in the morning teaching, and on the mount of Olives in the evening.
 
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robycop3

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You understand that this kind of hyperbole language was used quite often in the Old testament in prophecies that were not about the end of the world?
Sorry I took so long to answer. My apology.
This was Jesus, answering His disciples' questions directly and literally. Part of His prophecy has come to pass, literally; the rest is yet future.
 
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DavidPT

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Do you understand that Matthew and Luke were writing to different audiences? Matthew was writing to Jews and Luke was writing to Gentiles. That is what accounts for the differences in Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:20. Matthew's audience was familiar with the prophecies in Daniel which is why it says "let the reader understand". Luke's audience of Gentiles would have known nothing about Daniel's prophecies, so it would make no sense for Luke to tell them to consider the prophecy in Daniel about the abomination of desolation and then to say "let the reader understand".

If you insist on continuing to claim that Matthew 24:15-22 and Luke 21:20-24a are not parallel accounts, then you need to show exactly when you think Jesus said what He did in Matthew 24:15-22 in relation to when He said what He did in Luke 21:20-24. Can you please do that? Please combine Matthew 24 and Luke 21 together to show your understanding of when He said what. At least as it relates to those two passages.

So, if you think He said what is recorded in Luke 21:20-24 after what He said in Matthew 24:15-22, then please show when you think He said what up to that point. Or if you think He said what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-22 after what He said in Luke 21:20-24a then show it up to that point. This is the only way that I can take you seriously is if you can give some kind of evidence that makes some kind of sense as to how those two passages could possibly not be parallel.

Some of this below is not for your benefit, but is for the benefit of others, meaning anyone who might think what is recorded in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are not involving a same particular day Jesus was teaching in the temple.

In Mattthew the following appears to be when He initially entered the temple that day, the same day He is seen leaving it in Matthew 24.

Matthew 21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.




Now let's go to Luke and also try and determine when Jesus ininitially enters the temple He is seen in in Luke 21.

Luke 20:1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,
2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?
3 And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me:
4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?
5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?
6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet.
7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was.
8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

If this doesn't undeniably prove that both Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are involving a same particular day Jesus was in the temple, then I give up. IOW, Matthew 24 isn't involving a particular day that Jesus was teaching in the temple, and that Luke 21 is involving another particular day, thus the same day is not meant. Clearly that is wrong. Both accounts are involving this same particular day in question. But even so, we still don't know what it looked like at the time when Jesus was predicting what He did. Meaning, did He say this first, then later say this, thus, though they appear to be involving the same events, they really aren't.

For example.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

This is what is recorded in Luke 21.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

How can these be involving the same events if one account records one is to flee to the mountains when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, and the other account records one is to flee to the mountains when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place?

In the Luke 21:20 account, the armies are surrounding Jerusalem, not inside of Jerusalem overthrowing it yet. In the Matthew 24:15 account, it is when one sees the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place(temple), one is to then flee. How can that mean this----when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies.? The fact they would be outside of Jerusalem, and that the holy place would be inside of Jerusalem, how could these be describing the same events?

Is one going to argue that the holy place is not meaning a temple, but is meaning outside of Jerusalem, that the armies surrounding it, this equals standing in the holy place? As if that makes some kind of sense, keeping in mind that Luke 21:20 is to be taken literally when it indicates Jerusalem is being surrounded with armies. And if Matthew 24:15 is recording this same event, then so must this part be taken literal as well---the abomination of desolation---stand in the holy place. Which then means the armies have to be inside Jerusalem at the time, then one is to flee to the mountains. But how could they be inside of Jerusalem when one is to flee to the mountains, if Luke 21:20 records they are to flee before the armies ever enter Jerusalem in order to try and overthrow it.


And what about the temple recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, which plays a major role in the end of this age prior to His 2nd coming? One is to believe, though Matthew 24 records His 2nd coming(verse 31), Jesus is just going to skip over anything involving 2 Thessalanians 2:4, and instead go from 2000 years earlier to that of His coming 2000 years later without Him predicting anything that might pertain to the end of this age, such as what is recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2? Or what is recorded in Revelation 13 involving the 42 month reign of the beast?
 
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keras

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And what about the temple recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, which plays a major role in the end of this age prior to His 2nd coming? One is to believe, though Matthew 24 records His 2nd coming(verse 31), Jesus is just going to skip over anything involving 2 Thessalanians 2:4, and instead go from 2000 years earlier to that of His coming 2000 years later without Him predicting anything that might pertain to the end of this age, such as what is recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2? Or what is recorded in Revelation 13 involving the 42 month reign of the beast?
Thank you, DavidPT, you bring common sense and discernment to the whole issue of the end times.
Jesus gave an overview of the near and the far future, in the Olivet Discourse.
That there WILL be a new Temple is clearly stated in many Prophesies and there is coming a leader who will desecrate that Temple by sitting in it and declaring himself to be God.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Some of this below is not for your benefit, but is for the benefit of others, meaning anyone who might think what is recorded in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are not involving a same particular day Jesus was teaching in the temple.
Is anyone actually saying that, though?

You finally replied to my post, but you didn't address anything I said and didn't do what I asked you to do in that post. And I've asked you to do it a few other times as well. Is there some reason why you will not show when you think He said what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-22 in relation to Luke 21:20-24a? If you're going to continue to claim that those are not parallel passages then you should be able to do that. Why won't you?

In Mattthew the following appears to be when He initially entered the temple that day, the same day He is seen leaving it in Matthew 24.

Matthew 21:23 And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.




Now let's go to Luke and also try and determine when Jesus ininitially enters the temple He is seen in in Luke 21.

Luke 20:1 And it came to pass, that on one of those days, as he taught the people in the temple, and preached the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes came upon him with the elders,
2 And spake unto him, saying, Tell us, by what authority doest thou these things? or who is he that gave thee this authority?
3 And he answered and said unto them, I will also ask you one thing; and answer me:
4 The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?
5 And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then believed ye him not?
6 But and if we say, Of men; all the people will stone us: for they be persuaded that John was a prophet.
7 And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was.
8 And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

If this doesn't undeniably prove that both Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are involving a same particular day Jesus was in the temple, then I give up. IOW, Matthew 24 isn't involving a particular day that Jesus was teaching in the temple, and that Luke 21 is involving another particular day, thus the same day is not meant. Clearly that is wrong.
I agree, but was anyone saying otherwise? What prompted you to do this?

Both accounts are involving this same particular day in question. But even so, we still don't know what it looked like at the time when Jesus was predicting what He did. Meaning, did He say this first, then later say this, thus, though they appear to be involving the same events, they really aren't.

For example.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

This is what is recorded in Luke 21.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

How can these be involving the same events if one account records one is to flee to the mountains when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, and the other account records one is to flee to the mountains when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place?
I addressed this in my post that you quoted. Did you not read it? Why are you acting as if no one has addressed this before?

In the Luke 21:20 account, the armies are surrounding Jerusalem, not inside of Jerusalem overthrowing it yet. In the Matthew 24:15 account, it is when one sees the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place(temple), one is to then flee. How can that mean this----when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies.? The fact they would be outside of Jerusalem, and that the holy place would be inside of Jerusalem, how could these be describing the same events?
Luke was writing to a Gentile audience, so he described things in a way they could understand. They were not familiar with Daniel's prophecy about the abomination of desolation.

Tell me, does it really make sense that on two separate occasions within the same discourse Jesus said "when you see...then let those in Judea flee to the mountains"? And did He say on two separate occasions during the discourse "woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days!" during which there would be great tribulation/distress? If you think it does, then please, once and for all, show me when He said what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-22 and when He said what is recorded in Luke 21:20-24. Which did He say first? How much later did He say the other? You should be willing to answer these questions.

Is one going to argue that the holy place is not meaning a temple, but is meaning outside of Jerusalem, that the armies surrounding it, this equals standing in the holy place? As if that makes some kind of sense, keeping in mind that Luke 21:20 is to be taken literally when it indicates Jerusalem is being surrounded with armies. And if Matthew 24:15 is recording this same event, then so must this part be taken literal as well---the abomination of desolation---stand in the holy place. Which then means the armies have to be inside Jerusalem at the time, then one is to flee to the mountains. But how could they be inside of Jerusalem when one is to flee to the mountains, if Luke 21:20 records they are to flee before the armies ever enter Jerusalem in order to try and overthrow it.
I don't think anyone is arguing that armies surrounding Jerusalem is exactly the same thing as the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. What some of us are saying, though, is that Luke was writing to a different audience (Gentiles) than Matthew was, so he worded things at times a bit differently just so his audience could understand. It was true that people should start fleeing when the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem but it was also true that they should flee (if they hadn't already) when some of the Romans started performing abominable things in the temple.

And what about the temple recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, which plays a major role in the end of this age prior to His 2nd coming? One is to believe, though Matthew 24 records His 2nd coming(verse 31), Jesus is just going to skip over anything involving 2 Thessalanians 2:4, and instead go from 2000 years earlier to that of His coming 2000 years later without Him predicting anything that might pertain to the end of this age, such as what is recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2? Or what is recorded in Revelation 13 involving the 42 month reign of the beast?
Context! You're missing it. The context of a temple in Matthew 24 is in relation to the physical temple standing at that time. This is undeniable. The disciples told Jesus to look at the temple buildings while they were marveling at them and then Jesus told them they would be destroyed. Then the disciples asked Him when that would happen. Your interpretation of Matthew 24 doesn't take that into account at all. You act as if that question wasn't even answered anywhere in Matthew 24.
 
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DavidPT

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Is there some reason why you will not show when you think He said what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-22 in relation to Luke 21:20-24a? If you're going to continue to claim that those are not parallel passages then you should be able to do that. Why won't you?

Why are you insisting I'm avoiding doing that when I already did that in the past, not avoided it? Such as, via some of the following.

I have explained in other posts relating to this, that Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:21 are involving the same era of time and that Daniel 12:2 proves that Matthew 24:21 isn't meaning 2000 years ago since no resurrection event ever followed any of that. The way you try and get around that, Matthew 24:21 and Daniel 12:1 are not involving the same events. The former is meaning much earlier, the latter is meaning much later. Which then, if true, has Jesus contradicting Himself in Matthew 24:21 when He said---such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be---and that if this happens later in time---and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

Let's look at these statements side by side, so to speak.


such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be
and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time

In the latter it says since there was a nation. In the former it says since the beginning of the world. So, since the beginning of this world, when did nations first come into being? Pretty much at the beginning of time, or at least right after Noah's flood.

The former says this---such as was not--no, nor ever shall be
The latter says this---such as never was--even to that same time

And the latter makes sense exactly how if the former is meaning prior to the latter? Per the former, what part of---no, nor ever shall be--is being misunderstood here? Does it not mean that there can never be a time equal to it or greater than it since the beginning of the world? How would that still be true if Daniel 12:1 is meaning a time sometime after Matthew 24:21 is meaning?


trouble(Daniel 12:1)
tsarah
tsaw-raw'
feminine of 'tsar' (6862); tightness (i.e. figuratively, trouble); transitively, a female rival:--adversary, adversity, affliction, anguish, distress, tribulation, trouble.

tribulation(Matthew 24:21)
thlipsis
thlip'-sis
from qlibw - thlibo 2346; pressure (literally or figuratively):--afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.



Context! You're missing it. The context of a temple in Matthew 24 is in relation to the physical temple standing at that time. This is undeniable. The disciples told Jesus to look at the temple buildings while they were marveling at them and then Jesus told them they would be destroyed. Then the disciples asked Him when that would happen. Your interpretation of Matthew 24 doesn't take that into account at all. You act as if that question wasn't even answered anywhere in Matthew 24.

And since there are 3 accounts, one of them addresses all of that, the other 2 don't. That's hardly the same as it not being addressed at all.
 
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Jipsah

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This was Jesus, answering His disciples' questions directly and literally. Part of His prophecy has come to pass, literally; the rest is yet future.
So you're a partial preterist. The title of this thread is pretty ridiculous, then, isn't it?
 
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robycop3

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So you're a partial preterist. The title of this thread is pretty ridiculous, then, isn't it?
Nupe ! Not a pret at all. The Biblical prophecies that obviously did come to pass are not counted in the pret view.

No one denies the temple was destroyed, etc. That's not counted in the pret view.
 
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Jipsah

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Nupe ! Not a pret at all. The Biblical prophecies that obviously did come to pass are not counted in the pret view.
If yiy believe tht any of the "end times" prophecies have been fulfilled, then you're a partial preterist, like it or lump it.

No one denies the temple was destroyed, etc. That's not counted in the pret view.
Making it up as you go, I see. You're a PP, deal with it.
 
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renniks

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Nupe ! Not a pret at all. The Biblical prophecies that obviously did come to pass are not counted in the pret view.

No one denies the temple was destroyed, etc. That's not counted in the pret view.
Exactly what the other guy said. You are taking a partial preterist view.
 
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robycop3

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If yiy believe tht any of the "end times" prophecies have been fulfilled, then you're a partial preterist, like it or lump it.

Making it up as you go, I see. You're a PP, deal with it.
Obviously, the destruction of J & the temple, etc. were not end-time prophecies.
 
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Jipsah

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Obviously, the destruction of J & the temple, etc. were not end-time prophecies.
How about the cessation of sacrifice and oblation? That one fulfilled or nay? I wanna see how preterist you really are.
 
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Jipsah

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Nupe ! Obviously, the events in 66-70 AD were not the fulfillment of end time prophecies.
Own it, mate. You've been railing against part prets and all this time you are one! That's pretty bleedin' hilarious! Say, "Oh, those aren't End Times prophecies" is laughable. You've outted yourself, homie. <ROFL>
 
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