Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

[Spiritual Jew]

Yet, they are not parallel unless they are involving the same period of time and the same events. In Luke 21 where is there even a hint in the text that it is involving any of the following during when Luke 21:20 is meaning? Or how about this instead, since history recorded what happened in 70 AD and leading up to 70 AD, meaning the following below, how is any of that applicable to 70 AD and or leading up to it?


When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place(Matthew 24:15)

if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not(Matthew 24:23-26).

Seriously, what does any of that have to do with what happened to the unbelieving Jews at the hands of the Romans in 70 AD, and or leading up to 70 AD? According to Matthew 24, verses 23-26 are apparently meaning during great tribulation(verse 21). Do some of you think unbelieving Jews in the first century were concerned with false Christs, the fact they didn't even believe the real Christ was the real Christ? So, they instead starting seeking false Christs, thus believing them instead?

Matthew 24:23-26 is a description of things happening after what was described in Matthew 24:15-21, not during. I don't know how you are concluding that verses 23-26 are describing things that happen at the same time as what is described in verses 15-21.

 

[DavidPT]

Do you understand that Matthew and Luke were writing to different audiences? Matthew was writing to Jews and Luke was writing to Gentiles. That is what accounts for the differences in Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:20. Matthew's audience was familiar with the prophecies in Daniel which is why it says "let the reader understand". Luke's audience of Gentiles would have known nothing about Daniel's prophecies, so it would make no sense for Luke to tell them to consider the prophecy in Daniel about the abomination of desolation and then to say "let the reader understand".

If you insist on continuing to claim that Matthew 24:15-22 and Luke 21:20-24a are not parallel accounts, then you need to show exactly when you think Jesus said what He did in Matthew 24:15-22 in relation to when He said what He did in Luke 21:20-24. Can you please do that? Please combine Matthew 24 and Luke 21 together to show your understanding of when He said what. At least as it relates to those two passages.

So, if you think He said what is recorded in Luke 21:20-24 after what He said in Matthew 24:15-22, then please show when you think He said what up to that point. Or if you think He said what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-22 after what He said in Luke 21:20-24a then show it up to that point. This is the only way that I can take you seriously is if you can give some kind of evidence that makes some kind of sense as to how those two passages could possibly not be parallel.

What might settle this is a reasonable explanation that we can all agree with, one that can be proven, as to how armies surrounding Jerusalem equals the AOD standing in the holy place. If the holy place is meaning the temple, how can the armies be standing in the temple while they are still outside of Jerusalem surrounding it? If we are going to take the surrounding of Jerusalem literal,and obviously it was, at least pertaining to Luke 21, and if we have Matthew 24:15 meaning this same event, that means we have to take verse 15 literal too. Which means they would need to be literally standing in the holy place at the time. Don't know how they can literally do both if they are instead still literally outside of Jerusalem at the time surrounding it?

 

[DavidPT]

Matthew 24:23-26 is a description of things happening after what was described in Matthew 24:15-21, not during. I don't know how you are concluding that verses 23-26 are describing things that happen at the same time as what is described in verses 15-21.

You only have a valid point if verse 21 is pertaining to the first century and 70 AD. In that case, I would be inclined to fully agree with you. Except I'm not convinced verse 21 is even pertaining to the first century and 70 AD. But if it is, your point is valid and I would have no reason to try and dispute it since nothing pertaining to verses 23-26 could possibly have any relevance leading up to 70 AD and 70 AD itself. Clearly, and maybe you even agree, verses 23-26 is something only relevant to the church, not to unbelieving Jews instead.

 

[DavidPT]

Matthew 24:23-26 is a description of things happening after what was described in Matthew 24:15-21, not during. I don't know how you are concluding that verses 23-26 are describing things that happen at the same time as what is described in verses 15-21.

Eric, if I, therefore, not meaning you, take the following to be connected and that I see all of this involving the 42 month reign recorded in Revelation 13:5, and that I reason this to be involving great tribulation recorded in Matthew 24:21, why would I not assume verses 23-26 are still involving verse 21 in Matthew 24 in that case?

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders ; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast ; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

[parousia70]

nothing pertaining to verses 23-26 could possibly have any relevance leading up to 70 AD and 70 AD itself.

Not only is it possible, it’s demonstrable.

Matt 24:21-24 -- Jesus tells more about Israel's Great Tribulation (also: Luke 21:20-24; Josephus, Wars of the Jews, entire). The Roman Jewish war is the documented history of the Great Tribulation. Josephus declares that the war with the Romans was "the greatest of all ever heard of" (see: Matthew 24:21). Josephus writes, "the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of" (Wars of the Jews, preface, section 1; Wars, 5:10:5). Jesus calls this time the "Days of Vengeance" (Luke 21:20-22; Isaiah 61:2/Jer 46:10; Matt 23:31-38; Luke 19:40-44; Matt 21:40-22:7), and "wrath and distress upon this people" (Luke 21:23; see also Josephus, Wars, 2:10:1; 2:22:1; 6:3:3-4; 6:9:2-4; 7:1:1). Lakes of blood and fires (Wars, 2:18: 4:5:1; 5:1:2-5; 6:4:6; 6:5:1,2; 6:8:5). Jerusalem divided into three (Rev 16:19; see also Wars, 5:1:1,4). Genealogical records destroyed (Wars, 6:6:3; 6:9:1). God took the Kingdom away from them (Matt 21:40-45; see also Josephus, Wars, 6:8:4:; 6:9:1,4). Jerusalem called "That Great City" and "Sodom" (Rev 11:8; Rev 18:21-24; see also Josephus, Wars, 5:10:5; 5:13:6; 7:8:7). Jews sold into slavery (Luke 21:24; see also Josephus, Wars, preface, section 11; Wars 6:8:2; 6:9:2-4). City of Jerusalem is leveled (Matt 24:2 and Luke 19:40-44; see also Josephus, Wars, 7:1:1; 7:8:7). Jesus warns his generation: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of gehenna? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate (Matt 23:33-38).

Matt 24:25 -- Jesus explicitly tells the apostles that these dire events will be experienced by them (as also in Matt 24:33-34). They will be the generation to see these things Jesus is describing come to pass (not some distant future generation). By comparing Matt 24:25 with similar statements in John 14:28, John 13:19and John 16:4, we see that they all signal events in the apostles' near future. Christ always told his apostles things they would need to know beforehand, that it could be to their benefit when the things came to pass before their eyes.

Matt 24:26-28 -- Jesus forewarns them not to follow false messianic movements in the desert or in the Temple chambers, which had precise first-century relevance for them (Antiquities of the Jews, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). The desolation is like lightning over the whole land from east to west, and where the carcasses are strewn, there will be the Roman Eagles (i.e, the infamous Eagle Ensigns of the Roman armies that were planted all over Jerusalem during the Roman Jewish war). The Roman eagle ensigns served as a symbol of the Jews' defeat at the hand of their enemies. Most commentators believe this war and passage also was the fulfillment of Moses' predictions in Deuteronomy 28:49 and the verses following. All this came to pass in 66-70AD (see also: Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).

 

[DavidPT]

Not only is it possible, it’s demonstrable.

Matt 24:21-24 -- Jesus tells more about Israel's Great Tribulation (also: Luke 21:20-24; Josephus, Wars of the Jews, entire). The Roman Jewish war is the documented history of the Great Tribulation. Josephus declares that the war with the Romans was "the greatest of all ever heard of" (see: Matthew 24:21). Josephus writes, "the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of" (Wars of the Jews, preface, section 1; Wars, 5:10:5). Jesus calls this time the "Days of Vengeance" (Luke 21:20-22; Isaiah 61:2/Jer 46:10; Matt 23:31-38; Luke 19:40-44; Matt 21:40-22:7), and "wrath and distress upon this people" (Luke 21:23; see also Josephus, Wars, 2:10:1; 2:22:1; 6:3:3-4; 6:9:2-4; 7:1:1). Lakes of blood and fires (Wars, 2:18: 4:5:1; 5:1:2-5; 6:4:6; 6:5:1,2; 6:8:5). Jerusalem divided into three (Rev 16:19; see also Wars, 5:1:1,4). Genealogical records destroyed (Wars, 6:6:3; 6:9:1). God took the Kingdom away from them (Matt 21:40-45; see also Josephus, Wars, 6:8:4:; 6:9:1,4). Jerusalem called "That Great City" and "Sodom" (Rev 11:8; Rev 18:21-24; see also Josephus, Wars, 5:10:5; 5:13:6; 7:8:7). Jews sold into slavery (Luke 21:24; see also Josephus, Wars, preface, section 11; Wars 6:8:2; 6:9:2-4). City of Jerusalem is leveled (Matt 24:2 and Luke 19:40-44; see also Josephus, Wars, 7:1:1; 7:8:7). Jesus warns his generation: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of gehenna? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate (Matt 23:33-38).

Matt 24:25 -- Jesus explicitly tells the apostles that these dire events will be experienced by them (as also in Matt 24:33-34). They will be the generation to see these things Jesus is describing come to pass (not some distant future generation). By comparing Matt 24:25 with similar statements in John 14:28, John 13:19and John 16:4, we see that they all signal events in the apostles' near future. Christ always told his apostles things they would need to know beforehand, that it could be to their benefit when the things came to pass before their eyes.

Matt 24:26-28 -- Jesus forewarns them not to follow false messianic movements in the desert or in the Temple chambers, which had precise first-century relevance for them (Antiquities of the Jews, 20:8:6; Wars, 6:5:2). The desolation is like lightning over the whole land from east to west, and where the carcasses are strewn, there will be the Roman Eagles (i.e, the infamous Eagle Ensigns of the Roman armies that were planted all over Jerusalem during the Roman Jewish war). The Roman eagle ensigns served as a symbol of the Jews' defeat at the hand of their enemies. Most commentators believe this war and passage also was the fulfillment of Moses' predictions in Deuteronomy 28:49 and the verses following. All this came to pass in 66-70AD (see also: Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).

Apparently, though you also used Scripture, you interpret these Scriptures according to what Josephus recorded about these events, a writer that is not even inspired by God since none of his writings managed to make it into the NT.

My point was, though apparently I wasn't entirely clear at the time---verses 23-26 have no relevance as to why Jerusalem, the 2nd temple, and countless unbelieving Jews, were destroyed in 70 AD. But if those verses are part of great tribulation recorded in Matthew 24:21, my view, why is Jesus all over the place? One minute He is allegedly speaking about what will happen to Jerusalem and the 2nd temple during great tribulation. The next minute He is warning about false prophets rising, and if possibe, deceiving the elect, during this same great tribulation.

The elect can't be meaning Jews only, especially unbelieving Jews. So, what does that add up to then? The elect are meaning the church. And since the church doesn't consist of only Jews, but also consist of Gentiles, we know that great tribulation is mainly affecting the church. Whoever we make the elect to be meaning in this verse, so must the elect be meaning them in the following verses.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.


Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Though some of these passages are not part of the Discourse, why would Jesus not be meaning 'elect' in the Discourse, the same way Paul is meaning 'elect' in his writings?

 

[parousia70]

But if those verses are part of great tribulation recorded in Matthew 24:21, my view, why is Jesus all over the place? One minute He is allegedly speaking about what will happen to Jerusalem and the 2nd temple during great tribulation. The next minute He is warning about false prophets rising, and if possibe, deceiving the elect, during this same great tribulation.

The elect can't be meaning Jews only, especially unbelieving Jews. So, what does that add up to then? The elect are meaning the church. And since the church doesn't consist of only Jews, but also consist of Gentiles, we know that great tribulation is mainly affecting the church.

Though some of these passages are not part of the Discourse, why would Jesus not be meaning 'elect' in the Discourse, the same way Paul is meaning 'elect' in his writings?

Who says he isn't?

While Israel was the hub of the tribulation/Day of the Lord at AD 66-70, scripture is clear that there were ramifications for all of the empire.

Those elect were spread all over the empire, and Christ came to them at his promised 1st century return and brought them relief--He did this as well as bringing judgment upon apostate Israel.

From the Letters to the Churches we see that each of those "First Century Churches" Christ was DIRECTLY ADDRESSING had unique, contemporary situations that John & Paul testified were to "soon" be directly addressed by Christ's coming to them:

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Revelation 2:18-25
result: their false prophetess and all her followers would be killed off by
Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Revelation 2:12-16
result: the heretical Nicolaitans were to be put down by Christ's coming to
Pergamum. The Nicolaitans that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were killed (Rev 2:14; cf. Acts 15:28-29).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Sardis
promise: Revelation 3:1-5
result: Christ promises them that his "thief-in-the-night" coming will come
upon them. They had not been faithfully expecting "the thief" as explained to them in Matt 24:43/1 Thess5:2-5. However, a few in Sardis were found worthy and had not soiled their garments. At Christ's coming to them "they walked in white, for they were worthy" (Rev 3:4-5).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Revelation 3:7-13
result: Christ puts down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution (3:9).
He preserves the Church at Philadelphia through the testing which was then about to come upon the whole empire (3:10). God makes his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Revelation 3:14-21
result: Christ is shown to be knocking at their door as first promised in Matt 24:33 (cf. also James 5:9). If they didn't repent, they were annihilated. Repentant and obedient followers said to become partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

Even Paul gets into the Act:
* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thessalonica
promise: 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7
result: their persecutors would be cut off by Christ's coming, ending their persecution and granting them rest and relief.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What might settle this is a reasonable explanation that we can all agree with, one that can be proven, as to how armies surrounding Jerusalem equals the AOD standing in the holy place. If the holy place is meaning the temple, how can the armies be standing in the temple while they are still outside of Jerusalem surrounding it? If we are going to take the surrounding of Jerusalem literal,and obviously it was, at least pertaining to Luke 21, and if we have Matthew 24:15 meaning this same event, that means we have to take verse 15 literal too. Which means they would need to be literally standing in the holy place at the time. Don't know how they can literally do both if they are instead still literally outside of Jerusalem at the time surrounding it?

Did you read all of my post #760? Should I assume from this response that you're not interested in doing what I asked you to do in my post #760? It would be very helpful if you took the text from Matthew 24 and from Luke 21 and put them together in a timeline order in terms of the order of when Jesus said what He did in the Olivet Discourse. Am I asking too much?

You are the one claiming that Jesus said what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-21 at a different point in time during the Olivet Discourse than what He said as recorded in Luke 21:20-24. So, it would be nice if you could show when He said what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-21 in relation to what He said in Luke 21:20-24. Which did He say first? How much later did He say the other? I can't take you seriously on this unless you can somehow show how it's possible that those passages are not parallel.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You only have a valid point if verse 21 is pertaining to the first century and 70 AD. In that case, I would be inclined to fully agree with you. Except I'm not convinced verse 21 is even pertaining to the first century and 70 AD.

Why not? That doesn't require you to also believe that Matthew 24:23-51 relate to the first century and 70 AD as well.

But if it is, your point is valid and I would have no reason to try and dispute it since nothing pertaining to verses 23-26 could possibly have any relevance leading up to 70 AD and 70 AD itself. Clearly, and maybe you even agree, verses 23-26 is something only relevant to the church, not to unbelieving Jews instead.

Yes, of course it's relevant to the church rather than unbelieving Jews. Jesus wouldn't tell unbelievers who don't believe in Him and have no interest in listening to Him to watch out for false Christs and false prophets.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Eric, if I, therefore, not meaning you, take the following to be connected and that I see all of this involving the 42 month reign recorded in Revelation 13:5, and that I reason this to be involving great tribulation recorded in Matthew 24:21, why would I not assume verses 23-26 are still involving verse 21 in Matthew 24 in that case?

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders ; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast ; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Yes, I see why you interpret it the way you do, but I believe you are relating unrelated scriptures. The problem with your view is that "the great tribulation" in the Olivet Discourse is referring to God's wrath against unbelieving Jews and not to a time of great persecution and deception.

Matthew 24:19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. - NIV

Luke 21:23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

 

[Timtofly]

That still doesn’t square with the fact that Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are parallel.

Parallel passages cannot be interpreted to have different meanings, (polar opposite or just slightly different doesn’t matter).

Parallel passages cannot be interpreted to have different meanings from one another.
That’s the hurdle you have to overcome, but There is no honest hermeneutic that allows for such gymnastics.

Parallel in format is not the same as a parallel message. Luke is not exactly even the same wording. There is enough difference to be talking about 2 different events.

There is no hurdle. It is simple reading comprehension. Interpretation is trying to make both passages say the exact same thing. Reading is not an interpretation.

 

[Timtofly]

so your counter argument is that jospehus made up the story of the Romans sacrificing to idols in Jewish temple (wars of the Jews 6.6.1)?

out of all the things that jospehus could or would embellish , why would he make up a story about a practice that Romans were known for doing?

There was no temple for the Romans to sacrifice in. You have an edited copy of Josephus or just repeating someone's interpretation and not Josephus at all.

The Romans never entered the temple the whole time they occupied Jerusalem. They were driven out of Jerusalem when Gaius Cestius Gallus, governor of Syria was commanding an army, and fled Palestine, instead of actually attacking Jerusalem in 66AD. The rebel factions kept fighting each other over control of Jerusalem for the next 3 years. Both Vespasian and Titus laid seige, but never entered Jerusalem until after the temple was torn down.

Titus was so disgusted at the Jews, who had desecrated their own temple, he would have nothing to do with the place, that is why he allegedly removed every stone from Jerusalem.

Titus did want to convert the Temple into a pagan shrine, but could not as it was burned down.

Jesus said to flee in both accounts:

Matthew 24:15-16 15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’adescribed by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.


Luke 21:20-21 20But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains

Yes, they fled in 66AD, when Cestius Gallus sent armies against Jerusalem. Those people never came back to flee again in 70AD. In fact thousands from all over the world, came to Jerusalem in 70AD for the Passover thinking it was safe. They were never able to flee. Luke 21 was fulfilled in 66AD.

Yes, they will need to flee in the future, when Satan sits on the throne in the temple in Jerusalem. That abomination of desolation will last for 42 months.

Two separate events, and neither of them happened in 70AD. No one could flee in 70AD. They all died of starvation, were killed, or captured and made slaves by the Romans in 70AD.

 

[rwb]

The Roman Jewish war is the documented history of the Great Tribulation. Josephus declares that the war with the Romans was "the greatest of all ever heard of" (see: Matthew 24:21). Josephus writes, "the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of those that were ever heard of" (Wars of the Jews, preface, section 1; Wars, 5:10:5).

Yet Josephus, being an unbelieving Jew says nothing about "great tribulation" coming against Christ and His Church as the Gospel is proclaimed throughout the earth. This is "great tribulation" Christ warned His disciples would come against His Church as the Kingdom of heaven is being built through the Gospel and Spirit.

 

[parousia70]

This is "great tribulation" Christ warned His disciples would come against His Church as the Kingdom of heaven is being built through the Gospel and Spirit.

Christ warend His disciples that THEY would see it in their lifetimes. Yes.

 

[parousia70]

Parallel in format is not the same as a parallel message. Luke is not exactly even the same wording. There is enough difference to be talking about 2 different events.

Then I'm with @Spiritual Jew in what He said in his post #760.

You should be able to set Matthew 24 and Luke 21 side by side and demonstrate the timeline that supports your contention that Jesus, in the same discourse, was giving the disciples two different instructions to flee two different events separated by thousands of years.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you understand that Matthew and Luke were writing to different audiences? Matthew was writing to Jews and Luke was writing to Gentiles. That is what accounts for the differences in Matthew 24:15 and Luke 21:20. Matthew's audience was familiar with the prophecies in Daniel which is why it says "let the reader understand". Luke's audience of Gentiles would have known nothing about Daniel's prophecies, so it would make no sense for Luke to tell them to consider the prophecy in Daniel about the abomination of desolation and then to say "let the reader understand".

If you insist on continuing to claim that Matthew 24:15-22 and Luke 21:20-24a are not parallel accounts, then you need to show exactly when you think Jesus said what He did in Matthew 24:15-22 in relation to when He said what He did in Luke 21:20-24. Can you please do that? Please combine Matthew 24 and Luke 21 together to show your understanding of when He said what. At least as it relates to those two passages.

So, if you think He said what is recorded in Luke 21:20-24 after what He said in Matthew 24:15-22, then please show when you think He said what up to that point. Or if you think He said what is recorded in Matthew 24:15-22 after what He said in Luke 21:20-24a then show it up to that point. This is the only way that I can take you seriously is if you can give some kind of evidence that makes some kind of sense as to how those two passages could possibly not be parallel.

A reader who reads both Matthew and Revelation should know that the AoD is set up by Satan and not an event in 70AD.

Luke 21 was still Jesus talking at the temple to a vast audience. Many that day remembered Jesus' words. They would not have heard nor remembered what was said in private to the disciples on the mount of Olives camp site they spent the night at. This in the temple and on the mount happened Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday morning, several days, so there was a lot more said both places than what was written down.

"And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives. And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him."

Seems Luke never even mentioned what was said on the mount of Olives, because he never separated what was said at the temple, with what was later said on the mount of Olives. Not even the same questions were asked in Luke's gospel.

Tuesday evening was the upper room communion, and the Garden of Gethsemane at the base of the mount of Olives.

It could be pointed out Luke only mentioned what was said in the Temple. Mark and Matthew only mentioned was was said in private on the mount of Olives. Jesus could have repeated similar words over again each day and each night. He only had a few days to make them understand what was about to happen. The disciples whose accounts were written from memory heard the same claims several times over several days, and probably other things, but we get what we get from their memories, along with exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted in God's Word.

 

[parousia70]

Luke 21 was still Jesus talking at the temple to a vast audience. Seems Luke never even mentioned what was said on the mount of Olives, because he never separated what was said at the temple, with what was later said on the mount of Olives. Not even the same questions were asked in Luke's gospel.

Lets Compare the passages to see if they support your contention:

Luke 21:6
6 “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

Matthew 24:2
2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Luke 21:7
7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

Matthew 24:3
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Luke 21:8
And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”

Matthew 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Luke 21:10
10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences;

Matthew 24:7
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

And the Clincher....

Luke 21:20-23
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Matthew 24:15-21
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I find no scriptural support for the contention that Jesus is giving two different discourses in these parallel passages about two different events separated by thousands of years, using the EXACT SAME LANGUAGE to describe each of them.

 

[Timtofly]

The Roman Jewish war is the documented history of the Great Tribulation. Josephus declares that the war with the Romans was "the greatest of all ever heard of"

Josephus did not live during the 2 World Wars. I am sure his ordeal in 70AD was huge for him. He was an historian who knew about Assyria and Babylon laying waste to Israel and Jerusalem. The Romans could have been way worse than both Assyria and Babylon, without a doubt. But since we have seen worse in the 20th century, what is about to happen at the Second Coming will make 70AD look like a Sunday School picnic, albeit hosted by cannibals.

If you think only 2 million Jews dying is worse than 6 million Jews dying, your math is slightly off. There are currently 15 million Jews alive today and all will die at the Second Coming. So over twice as many will soon die than the 6 million 100 years ago. And not all Jews were affected in 70AD. Just the ones in Jerusalem. But soon all 15 million Jews will be directly affected. 100% participation in the Great Tribulation, unless they are part of the church, and not even here during the Trumpets.

Not sure why you think some fled in the first century and escaped, and then claim the church will be unable to escape this time of Jacob's trouble. While at the same time declare a single city greater Tribulation than the whole world under duress.

 

[Timtofly]

Then I'm with @Spiritual Jew in what He said in his post #760.

You should be able to set Matthew 24 and Luke 21 side by side and demonstrate the timeline that supports your contention that Jesus, in the same discourse, was giving the disciples two different instructions to flee two different events separated by thousands of years.

Luke recorded what was said at the temple.

Matthew and Mark recorded what was said to the disciples in private. You can read Luke 21 and point out where they left for the mount of Olives, no?

Lets Compare the passages to see if they support your contention:

Luke 21:6
6 “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”

Matthew 24:2
2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

Luke 21:7
7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

Matthew 24:3
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Luke 21:8
And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them. 9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”

Matthew 24:4
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Luke 21:10
10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences;

Matthew 24:7
7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

And the Clincher....

Luke 21:20-23
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.

Matthew 24:15-21
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

I don't see where you proved in Luke 21, Jesus ever left the temple for the mount of Olives.

As some Amil would point out, you are forcing something into the text that is not there.

Jesus was repeating Himself to drive the message home. But for two different events, as humanity does not change, they have babies every generation. Humanity needed to be prepared the same way for both events.

BTW. That is not a timeline. That is just comparing similar text.

I find no scriptural support for the contention that Jesus is giving two different discourses in these parallel passages about two different events separated by thousands of years, using the EXACT SAME LANGUAGE to describe each of them.

It is not exact. One declares armies. The other declares an AoD.

 

[parousia70]

I don't see where you proved in Luke 21, Jesus ever left the temple for the mount of Olives.

Since when does absense of evidence = evidence of absense?