Why does God allow suffering? Bear in mind, those that don't need a perfect distraction, suffer less

Moral Orel said:

If A is better than B
And if God must choose the better option
Then God is forced to choose A

I don't see how you've made any distinction at all.

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There is no "must" and there is no "forced". Thats why its free.

God chooses the best options voluntarily. Also humans choose options voluntarily, but they make mistakes.

myst33 said:

I do not think your point holds. I do not even think your point or question are making sense.

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Okay, let's simplify then. What need do we have...here and now...of God?

partinobodycular said:

Okay, let's simplify then. What need do we have...here and now...of God?

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To exist, for example.

myst33 said:

To exist, for example.

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Okay, then create us and go away, we don't need you.

partinobodycular said:

Okay, then create us and go away, we don't need you.

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Thats not how it works. Our reality exists only because God keeps it together.

But thats not the topic of this thread.

myst33 said:

But thats not the topic of this thread.

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Sure it is.

God allows us to suffer. In fact, according to you, He requires it. In such a scenario it's difficult to see what value He brings us.

myst33 said:

Thats not how it works. Our reality exists only because God keeps it together.

But thats not the topic of this thread.

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According to you it's all for the greater good. But for someone who's destined to spend eternity in hell "the greater good" rings rather hollow. We're expected to suffer unimaginable torment...forever...just so that you and God can cast us aside and forget about us. Somehow that just doesn't seem all that benevolent.

myst33 said:

There is no "must" and there is no "forced". Thats why its free.

God chooses the best options voluntarily. Also humans choose options voluntarily, but they make mistakes.

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Uh, there is a "must" so there is a "forced". God can't do anything but choose the best options.

If A is better than B
And if God cannot choose the worse option
Then God must choose A

You said he is incapable of choosing anything but the best. God is incapable of choosing anything other than A. Ergo, He must choose A. Ergo, He is forced to choose A. He is incapable of not choosing A. What possible reasoning do you have to think "there is no must"?

Campos said:

We are made perfect, and the Devil will try to mess that up.

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Who God chose to create knowing full well what effect his decision to make a being like the Devil.

TedT said:

Being created with a free will able to fulfill HIS purpose of entering a heavenly marriage with HIM or to rebuke HIM as a liar and a false god WAS our perfection.

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Then why punish us with suffering if we are doing what he built us to do?

partinobodycular said:

According to you it's all for the greater good. But for someone who's destined to spend eternity in hell "the greater good" rings rather hollow. We're expected to suffer unimaginable torment...forever...just so that you and God can cast us aside and forget about us. Somehow that just doesn't seem all that benevolent.

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I do not say that every individual will have the best possible life (in the meaning of being the most pleasurable).

I say that the creation as a whole, as a system, is the best. And it requires some minimal amount of suffering.

partinobodycular said:

it's difficult to see what value He brings us.

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Its not difficult. Existence, for example.

Moral Orel said:

Uh, there is a "must" so there is a "forced". God can't do anything but choose the best options.

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We are running in circles.

I have to repeat again that you are mistaken by the language. "Can not" does not mean "must" or "is forced".

"Can not", in this context, means that he can not err. His choices are perfect, but they are not forced any more than you are forced to participate in this thread. His choices are voluntary as yours are. He was not forced to create anything.

myst33 said:

We are running in circles.

I have to repeat again that you are mistaken by the language. "Can not" does not mean "must" or "is forced".

Can not, in this context, means that he can not err. Therefore His choices are perfect, but they are not forced any more than you are forced to participate in this thread.

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There's nothing wrong with the language.

His choices are perfect because they must be perfect. He can't make any choice that is not the perfect choice. He therefore must make the perfect choice.

One cannot do anything other than X
One must do X

These phrases are identical in meaning. Language works just fine.

TedT said:

Our ability to make a free will choice was our perfection, not the results of our free will choice.

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This could only be true if God defined people’s suffering as his standard of perfection. And that’s all well and good if you want to worship a deity that mandates suffering as part of perfection- more power to you.

But what about people in Heaven? Is there free will in Heaven? If there is then by your previous assertion there MUST also be suffering.

Unless God can make a perfect reality with free will but no suffering? If he can do that for Heaven why not do it for Earth? He could make Earth like Heaven but he chooses not to.

And the fact that he does not shows that he has chosen to make suffering part of Earthly humanity but not Heavenly humanity.

myst33 said:

By "world" I mean the whole creation, the universe of things. Not just this planet.

Heaven as such is not the whole creation.

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You miss my point. Free will in the absence of suffering is the state of affairs in Heaven: correct?

Larnievc said:

Free will in the absence of suffering is the state of affairs in Heaven: correct?

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Define free will, suffering and heaven.

myst33 said:

Our will is free, but predictable, based on causes and inclinations. There is no true randomness or unpredictability in our will.

The unpredictability of our choices is only from our human perspective, because we cannot see the future yet and we do not understand our past properly. Its too complex for us.

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Then from God’s perspective we don’t have free will. Our unpredictability is only from our human perspective. To God we are like characters on a stage where he wrote the script and the plot?

We can choose to ad lib but if we do we go to Hell?

Moral Orel said:

There's nothing wrong with the language.

His choices are perfect because they must be perfect. He can't make any choice that is not the perfect choice. He therefore must make the perfect choice.

One cannot do anything other than X
One must do X

These phrases are identical in meaning. Language works just fine.

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No, your use of language is not fine, because you end with stronger terms than you start with.

"God cannot choose a bad universe, therefore He can either choose the best universe or no universe" is a correct level of reasoning.

"God cannot choose a bad universe, therefore He must/is forced to create the best universe" is mixing the of levels of language.

Larnievc said:

Then from God’s perspective we don’t have free will. Our unpredictability is only from our human perspective. To God we are like characters on a stage where he wrote the script and the plot?

We can choose to ad lib but if we do we go to Hell?

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Depends on the definition of free will, as always.

Future is certain, but not necessary.