Why does God allow suffering? Bear in mind, those that don't need a perfect distraction, suffer less

[timothyu]

Then it is impossible for "our own will" to be outside of God.

Have you never ignored that which was beside you?

 

[Freodin]

Have you never ignored that which was beside you?

There is no "beside you" in this case.

 

[dougangel]

Which, as we have already discussed in this thread, God does not have. So... God is a robot.

But regardless that doesn't answer the question: why is that necessary?

The chain of argumentation from your side is always the same:
This is so, so there must be a good reason for it. And the reason is XYZ... (which is contradicted by other arguments used in the system).

God chose to create the universe so he is not a robot. I'm not really sure about your logic.

 

[Campos]

If we were built properly we would choose not to mess up.

We are built in God's image. We are made perfect, and the Devil will try to mess that up. The Devil is a powerful being, not as powerful as God though. Therefore, it can be hard to get through what the Devil throws at us, but if you look to God, you will succeed. Even if He doesn't answer right away or in the way you want to be answered.

God bless!
~N. Campos

 

[Moral Orel]

We are made perfect

No, that is false.

God is perfect
God never chooses evil
Perfect beings never choose evil

We choose evil
Perfect beings never choose evil
We are not perfect beings

Adam chose evil
Perfect beings never choose evil
Adam was not a perfect being

If we were created perfect, we would never choose evil.
We choose evil, therefore we were not created perfect.

 

[Campos]

I rephrase my post as it seems pretty false. We are made perfect in God's eyes.

No, that is false.

God is perfect
God never chooses evil
Perfect beings never choose evil

We choose evil
Perfect beings never choose evil
We are not perfect beings

Adam chose evil
Perfect beings never choose evil
Adam was not a perfect being

If we were created perfect, we would never choose evil.
We choose evil, therefore we were not created perfect.

This is why I said we were made perfect:
Psalm 139:13-14 NIV

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

 

[TedT]

Why not build us properly in the first place?

We were built perfectly in the first place.

Being created with a free will able to fulfill HIS purpose of entering a heavenly marriage with HIM or to rebuke HIM as a liar and a false god WAS our perfection.

Our need to have as free will was absolute because only by our free will acceptance of HIS marriage proposal could we ever really truly wed our GOD since neither love not a true marriage can be forced upon anyone.

Thus for the wedding of GOD to HIS creation [as mentioned in Rev 19:6 And I heard a sound like the roar of a great multitude, like the rushing of many waters, and like a mighty rumbling of thunder, crying out:
“Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. 7 Let us rejoice and be glad
and give Him the glory. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.] HIS creation had to have a free will which means everyone created in HIS image (ie, able to to be a proper bride for HIM) had an equal ability and opportunity to accept HIM as their GOD and HIS proposal of marriage
OR ALSO
able to rebuke HIM as a liar and a false god driven by an evil megalomania, the unforgivable sin which started the corruption of HIS perfect creation.

The imperfections of HIS creation were all caused by our free will, not by HIS decision to make an imperfect creation. Any theology that claims GOD created evil is anathema.

 

[TedT]

If we were built properly we would choose not to mess up.

Wrong!
Our free will ability to choose right or wrong is NOT a mistake or any corruption of perfection but is an absolute necessity for us to fulfill HIS plan to join us in a heavenly marriage.

We were not created to be holy no matter what...we were created TO MAKE A FREE WILL CHOICE of whatever we thought would give us the most happiness in our lives.

Our ability to make a free will choice was our perfection, not the results of our free will choice.

 

[trophy33]

No, that's what people mean when they talk about "free will", that isn't wrong. I just cited the meaning of "free will". Whatever meaning you have for the term is not the norm. Let's stick to the normal usage of the term so that everyone understands the conversation.

Normal, "common folk" meanings are not useful for precise theological/philosophical conversations, because they are too vague or even wrong.

God doesn't have free will
God is perfect
If God was different, He wouldn't be perfect
If God had free will, then He would be different
If God had free will then God would be imperfect
Having free will is an imperfection

Anything wrong with any of that?

The first sentence, already. God has free will.

 

[trophy33]

it means that a world without God would look pretty much the same as a world with God.

So what need is there of God?

I do not understand what you mean. God creates worlds. What do you mean by a world without God?

 

[trophy33]

Apart from when you are in Heaven of course. My understanding is that that place is perfect and without suffering.

Surely that means perfection can exist without suffering.

By "world" I mean the whole creation, the universe of things. Not just this planet.

Heaven as such is not the whole creation.

 

[Moral Orel]

Normal, "common folk" meanings are not useful for precise theological/philosophical conversations, because they are too vague.

lol I didn't cite a "common folk" definition of free will. I cited the normal theological/philosophical definition of free will. If one is incapable of choosing to do evil, then one lacks free will.

The first sentence, already. God has free will.

Nope. God is incapable of choosing to do evil, so He lacks free will. Until you offer a better source with a better definition of "free will" your objections are without merit or substance.

 

[partinobodycular]

I do not understand what you mean. God creates worlds. What do you mean by a world without God?

What I mean is that as far as your explanation for suffering goes it doesn't seem to make any difference whether there's a God or not, because in either case the world will be full of suffering. So of what value is God if the world would be just as well off without Him?

 

[trophy33]

What I mean is that as far as your explanation for suffering goes it doesn't seem to make any difference whether there's a God or not, because in either case the world will be full of suffering. So of what value is God if the world would be just as well off without Him?

The world is not full of suffering. There is the minimal necessary amount of suffering that God permits to happen, only.

A world cannot be without God, all possible worlds (including just the hypothetical ones like the one full of suffering or the one without any suffering) are in Him. He has chosen the best one to bring to existence.

 

[trophy33]

If one is incapable of choosing to do evil, then one lacks free will.

Free will is a will that is not forced.

 

[partinobodycular]

The world is not full of suffering. There is the minimal necessary amount of suffering that God permits to happen, only.

But we have free will...right?

So it's not a matter of what God permits to happen. God doesn't have any say in the matter. The world has the same amount of suffering whether there's a God or not. So what need do we have of God?

 

[trophy33]

But we have free will...right?

So it's not a matter of what God permits to happen. God doesn't have any say in the matter. The world has the same amount of suffering whether there's a God or not. So what need do we have of God?

Our will is free, but predictable, based on causes and inclinations. There is no true randomness or unpredictability in our will.

The unpredictability of our choices is only from our human perspective, because we cannot see the future yet and we do not understand our past properly. Its too complex for us.

 

[partinobodycular]

Our will is free, but predictable, based on causes and inclinations. There is no true randomness or unpredictability in our will.

The unpredictability of our choices is only from our human perspective, because we cannot see the future yet and we do not understand our past properly. Its too complex for us.

So my point still holds, God has no control over the amount of suffering. So what need do we have of Him?

 

[Moral Orel]

Free will is a will that is not forced.

If A is better than B
And if God must choose the better option
Then God is forced to choose A

I don't see how you've made any distinction at all.

 

[trophy33]

So my point still holds, God has no control over the amount of suffering. So what need do we have of Him?

I do not think your point holds. I do not even think your point or question are making sense.