David Bentley Hart on Hell

Der Alte · Jan 11, 2022

keiw said:
The true God of the bible = Love, justice, wisdom, power, mercy--- i never saw sadism listed.
It would take a sadist to create a literal eternal place ofsuffering. Thus it was symbolism taught on that subject. Here is proof.
Lets apply Gods justice scales to that teaching--Does any know what true justice is. It entails balance, uncorryptable.
70-100 years of unrepented life of sin on one side--- Trillions x trillions x trillions etc of never ending years of suffering on the other side. 0 balance, 0 love, 0 mercy, 0 wisdom on those scales. just power mad sadism. Thus not the reality of the God of the bible.
The symbolism= As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those not allowed entrance miss each new day, miss out on Gods love each new day, it never ends. Likened to be an eternal suffering. They have traded 70-100 years of a life of unrepented sin and miss-trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of life-never sick, never without, loved ones ressurected, no war, no hatred, etc, etc. Not a very good choice.
The teachers that do not know God or his son teach a literal eternal suffering-RUN FROM THEM.

I call this the SPAM-Fig cop-out. Whenever scripture as written contradicts someone's religious assumptions/presuppositions, no problemo, just say that it is symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative, anything but literal. Trouble is everybody has their own idea what a verse "really" means.
I wonder what all this "really" means?

Genesis 7:19-23
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Genesis 19:23-25
23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Numbers 21:1-3
1 And when king Arad the Canaanite, which dwelt in the south, heard tell that Israel came by the way of the spies; then he fought against Israel, and took some of them prisoners.
2 And Israel vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou wilt indeed deliver this people into my hand, then I will utterly destroy their cities.
3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.
Numbers 24:17-19
17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
18 And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also shall be a possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly.19 Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.
Deuteronomy 2:34-35
34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
35 Only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, and the spoil of the cities which we took.

I know there was no real flood, there was no real fire from heaven, the Israelite army did not actually go into Canaan and kill every living thing.

keiw · Jan 11, 2022

Der Alte said:
I call this the SPAM-Fig cop-out. Whenever scripture as written contradicts someone's religious assumptions/presuppositions, no problemo, just say that it is symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative, anything but literal. Trouble is everybody has their own idea what a verse "really" means.
I wonder what all this "really" means?

Genesis 7:19-23
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Genesis 19:23-25
23 The sun was risen upon the earth when Lot entered into Zoar.
24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.
Numbers 21:1-3
1 And when king Arad the Canaanite, which dwelt in the south, heard tell that Israel came by the way of the spies; then he fought against Israel, and took some of them prisoners.
2 And Israel vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou wilt indeed deliver this people into my hand, then I will utterly destroy their cities.
3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.
Numbers 24:17-19
17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
18 And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also shall be a possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly.19 Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.
Deuteronomy 2:34-35
34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
35 Only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, and the spoil of the cities which we took.
I know there was no real flood, there was no real fire from heaven, the Israelite army did not actually go into Canaan and kill every living thing.

I just showed you who the true God is in the bible. No where does it say he is a sadist. Fact--Deuteronomy 30:19 is what God set before mankind-LIFE or DEATH--both will be everlasting. The bible is clear as well. On the day of ones death, all thought stops. So if one cannot think, tell us how can they suffer or tell the difference between life or death?

Der Alte · Jan 11, 2022

keiw said:
I just showed you who the true God is in the bible. No where does it say he is a sadist. Fact--Deuteronomy 30:19 is what God set before mankind-LIFE or DEATH--both will be everlasting. The bible is clear as well. On the day of ones death, all thought stops. So if one cannot think, tell us how can they suffer or tell the difference between life or death?

You stated a claim of your unsupported opinion what certain things in the Bible "really mean." That does not make it true. Do you consider the several old testament scripture I quoted to be sadistic or not?
Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1971 Encyclopedia Judaica and the ca. 300-500 AC Talmud. Which to date have not been and I am convinced cannot be refuted.
…..According to these three sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA.
This refutes the false narrative that when Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was supposedly referring to nonexistent continually burning fires in the valley of GeHinnom where trash and bodies were disposed of.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]pre-Christianity Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

keiw · Jan 11, 2022

Der Alte said:
You stated a claim of your unsupported opinion what certain things in the Bible "really mean." That does not make it true. Do you consider the several old testament scripture I quoted to be sadistic or not?
Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1971 Encyclopedia Judaica and the ca. 300-500 AC Talmud. Which to date have not been and I am convinced cannot be refuted.
…..According to these three sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]
Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA.
This refutes the false narrative that when Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was supposedly referring to nonexistent continually burning fires in the valley of GeHinnom where trash and bodies were disposed of.

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]pre-Christianity Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

In Gehenna they kept the fires burning, everything thrown into it was destroyed.
Everyone in the Ot went into Sheol. That = the Greek word-Hades--its the grave.
In the NT it is clear-the ressurection occurs after Har-mageddon, not at ones death. The ones in darkness tell all they either go to heaven or hell instantly. They do not know God. In the OT it is clear--On the day of ones death all thought stops. So they wouldnt even know where they were.
Job asked God to send him to Sheol. He would not ask to go to a place of worse suffering than he was allready going through. He wanted his thoughts to stop in the grave. Men have twisted it into oblivion. They dont know what they are talking about. Deuteronomy 30:19--God set before all-LIFE or death.) both will be everlasting.
God is not a sadist, he is a God of-love, justice, wisdom, power, and mercy. He applies all to every decision, he does not apply sadism. Justice alone proves eternal suffering false. Does anyone understand justice?

Der Alte · Jan 11, 2022

keiw said:
***

keiw said:
In Gehenna they kept the fires burning, everything thrown into it was destroyed.
Everyone in the Ot went into Sheol. That = the Greek word-Hades--its the grave.
In the NT it is clear-the ressurection occurs after Har-mageddon, not at ones death. The ones in darkness tell all they either go to heaven or hell instantly. They do not know God. In the OT it is clear--On the day of ones death all thought stops. So they wouldnt even know where they were.
Job asked God to send him to Sheol. He would not ask to go to a place of worse suffering than he was allready going through. He wanted his thoughts to stop in the grave. Men have twisted it into oblivion. They dont know what they are talking about. Deuteronomy 30:19--God set before all-LIFE or death.) both will be everlasting.
God is not a sadist, he is a God of-love, justice, wisdom, power, and mercy. He applies all to every decision, he does not apply sadism. Justice alone proves eternal suffering false. Does anyone understand justice?

Once again nothing but you unsupported false opinions. If you can, which I doubt, please show me scripture for everything you have stated here. Don't waste my time or yours repeating empty claims again. Scripture only.

keiw · Jan 11, 2022

Der Alte said:
Once again nothing but you unsupported false opinions. If you can, which I doubt, please show me scripture for everything you have stated here. Don't waste my time or yours repeating empty claims again. Scripture only.

Sheol is mentioned many x in the Ot that is where the Israelites knew all go to. 1Samuel 2:6--prov 27:20-- Isaiah 14:15--Ecclesiastes 9:10--Hosea 13:14-- Job 14:13there are a few.
i showed what God said he put before men-deuteronomy 30:19

Ceallaigh · Jan 11, 2022

keiw said:
Sheol is mentioned many x in the Ot that is where the Israelites knew all go to. 1Samuel 2:6--prov 27:20-- Isaiah 14:15--Ecclesiastes 9:10--Hosea 13:14-- Job 14:13there are a few.
i showed what God said he put before men-deuteronomy 30:19

Just an FYI, Der has been at this for many years and you'll be getting a lot of prewritten replies that he's saved. It's kind of like arguing with a bot.

keiw · Jan 11, 2022

MMXX said:
Just an FYI, Der has been at this for many years and you'll be getting a lot of prewritten replies that he's saved. It's kind of like arguing with a bot.

There isnt much sense of him arguing against truth.

Ceallaigh · Jan 11, 2022

keiw said:
There isnt much sense of him arguing against truth.

From his perspective eternal torment of the unsaved is the rock solid truth, and those who don't/can't accept it twist scripture to make it say what they want and make stuff up because they can't stomach the truth.

hedrick · Jan 11, 2022

keiw said:
Sheol is mentioned many x in the Ot that is where the Israelites knew all go to. 1Samuel 2:6--prov 27:20-- Isaiah 14:15--Ecclesiastes 9:10--Hosea 13:14-- Job 14:13there are a few.
i showed what God said he put before men-deuteronomy 30:19

Ideas had changed by NT times. Jesus’ terminology and images would likely be understood against the 1st Cent background. There was a lot of variation in that, and Jesus uses a variety of images, not all matching what seems to have been 1st Cent ideas. But I wouldn’t limit myself to the OT in understanding Jesus’ references.

Andrewn · Jan 12, 2022

Der Alte said:
All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

According to this passage, most of those who descend into Gehenna will come up again. If you think that Jesus accepted 1st century Jewish beliefs, why do you deny post-mortem progression / salvation? You contradict yourself.

Der Alte said:
[3]pre-Christianity Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation,

It's amazing that the what you call "pre-Christian Talmud" describes the fate of Christians. Do you see the irony in this? Do you believe it was a future prophecy in a pre-Christian Talmud about the Christians? Or more likely that the Torah was written centuries after Christ, as you have been told several times before?

Andrewn · Jan 12, 2022

keiw said:
The ones in darkness tell all they either go to heaven or hell instantly. They do not know God. In the OT it is clear--On the day of ones death all thought stops. So they wouldnt even know where they were. Job asked God to send him to Sheol. He would not ask to go to a place of worse suffering than he was allready going through. He wanted his thoughts to stop in the grave.

It looks like you're a believer in soul sleep / post-mortem unconsciousness. In this you seem to be in agreement w/ @Der Alte, who previously referred to Hades as the "grave". I guess we have all kinds of beliefs represented in this thread. But Christ clearly corrected this error when He said,

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?' He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

And the Apostle Paul wrote,

2Co 5:8 Now we are confident and are pleased rather to be absent out of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

keiw said:
In the NT it is clear-the ressurection occurs after Har-mageddon, not at ones death.

So, what happens to people after the resurrection and Last Judgment?

hedrick · Jan 12, 2022

It’s also worth noting that the Talmud is basically a collection of the oral law. Jesus didn’t accept the validity of the oral law, e.g.Mat 15:1 ff., Mark 7:5. He taught about resurrection and judgement, so he did accept some ideas that developed after the OT, but we should be cautious about using documents from centuries later giving views of his opponents.

keiw · Jan 12, 2022

Andrewn said:
It looks like you're a believer in soul sleep / post-mortem unconsciousness. In this you seem to be in agreement w/ @Der Alte, who previously referred to Hades as the "grave". I guess we have all kinds of beliefs represented in this thread. But Christ clearly corrected this error when He said,

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob?' He is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

And the Apostle Paul wrote,

2Co 5:8 Now we are confident and are pleased rather to be absent out of the body, and to be at home with the Lord.

So, what happens to people after the resurrection and Last Judgment?

John 11:11-- Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, i am journeying there to wake him from sleep.--- so yes Jesus did liken death to sleep.
As well the bible teaches--No man entered heaven but he who descended from heaven-John 3:13

Abraham and the righteous are living -but only in the sense they have the promise of the ressurection. The first death is temporary--the second death is permanent. They sleep in death until the ressurection.

keiw · Jan 12, 2022

hedrick said:
Ideas had changed by NT times. Jesus’ terminology and images would likely be understood against the 1st Cent background. There was a lot of variation in that, and Jesus uses a variety of images, not all matching what seems to have been 1st Cent ideas. But I wouldn’t limit myself to the OT in understanding Jesus’ references.

The Hebrew word-Sheol= the Greek word Hades. they are the same.

hedrick · Jan 12, 2022

keiw said:
The Hebrew word-Sheol= the Greek word Hades. they are the same.

Sure. But by NT times there were other concepts as well, Gehenna being the main one.

keiw · Jan 12, 2022

hedrick said:
Sure. But by NT times there were other concepts as well, Gehenna being the main one.

Gehenna place where fire destroyed things.

Andrewn · Jan 12, 2022

keiw said:
John 11:11-- Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, i am journeying there to wake him from sleep.--- so yes Jesus did liken death to sleep.

Joh 11:11 He said this, and then he told them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep,but I’m on my way to wake him up.”

This verse is obviously in reference to Lazarus' physical body.

keiw said:
As well the bible teaches--No man entered heaven but he who descended from heaven-John 3:13

Joh 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.

Only the Lord Jesus has ascended into the throne of God.

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the word of God and the testimony they had given.

Luk 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

The righteous who are saved are described as being "under the altar" or "in Paradise," which means the same thing. People who believe that souls ascend immediately to the presence of God are not accurate.

I have no intention of getting into a discussion about "soul sleep." The reason I responded to your message is to note that you did not answer my question:

So, what happens to people after the resurrection and Last Judgment?

keiw · Jan 12, 2022

Andrewn said:
Joh 11:11 He said this, and then he told them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep,but I’m on my way to wake him up.”

This verse is obviously in reference to Lazarus' physical body.

Joh 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.

Only the Lord Jesus has ascended into the throne of God.

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the word of God and the testimony they had given.

Luk 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

The righteous who are saved are described as being "under the altar" or "in Paradise," which means the same thing. People who believe that souls ascend immediately to the presence of God are not accurate.

I have no intention of getting into a discussion about "soul sleep." The reason I responded to your message is to note that you did not answer my question:

So, what happens to people after the resurrection and Last Judgment?

How big is that alter since billions have died. No it does not mean paradise and no where in the bible does it claim that.
judgement occurs. Some will learn and apply Jesus Fathers will, the rest go with satan to be destroyed. It says they are as the sand of the sea=Many.

Comma error at Luke--It really reads--Truly i tell you today, you will be ith me in paradise. The bible is clear-Jesus was in the grave for 3 days dead, he could not be in paradise the first day as that comma error suggests.

Der Alte · Jan 12, 2022

Andrewn said:
According to this passage, most of those who descend into Gehenna will come up again. If you think that Jesus accepted 1st century Jewish beliefs, why do you deny post-mortem progression / salvation? You contradict yourself.
It's amazing that the what you call "pre-Christian Talmud" describes the fate of Christians. Do you see the irony in this? Do you believe it was a future prophecy in a pre-Christian Talmud about the Christians? Or more likely that the Torah was written centuries after Christ, as you have been told several times before?

If you are going to respond to me please extend me the simple courtesy to actually read my post in its entirety? With the exception of the error in dating the Talmud, which is correctly 300-500 CE/AC, everything you mentioned is addressed in my post. This e.g. is the 2nd para.,

…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

I only addressed references to comments about "hell" which the Jews called both Sheol/Ge Hinnom, which was written as "hades"/"Gehenna" in the 225 BC LXX and the NT. The Talmud is relevant because comments in the 2 encyclopedias mirrored the Talmud. Names and dates of the 2 encyclopedias are in my previous for you to ignore again.

David Bentley Hart on Hell

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