New Jerusalem vs Babylon the Great

Zao is life

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There has to be a temple standing for the prince who shall come to stop the daily sacrifice, making it desolate in Daniel 9:27.

There is no prince to come and stop a daily sacrifice in a newly erected Old Testament tabernacle. It's this determination of yours to hang onto believing false doctrine and refusal to hear sound doctrine that keeps you blind. The foundation of your sand castle is built on the sea's side of the high tide mark.
 
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jgr

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There has to be a temple standing for the prince who shall come to stop the daily sacrifice, making it desolate in Daniel 9:27.

Also the little horn (same) stops the daily sacrifice and makes the temple desolate.in Daniel 8:12-13. Before he stand up against the Prince of princes - Jesus later in Daniel 8:25.

______________________________________________

So naos in Revelation 11:1 is referring to that temple, which will include the burnt offering altar and the inner court, where Jews will be worshiping within. But the outer court John was told to leave out measuring.

There is not a word for the temple complex minus the outer court. So the instructions to John compensated for there being no such word. Plus, naos being the temple sanctuary building that the Antichrist reveals himself as the man of sin.

naos - the temple sanctuary only.
hieron - the entire temple complex; the temple sanctuary, the burnt offering altar, the inner court, the outer court, and all the other structures.

No word for - the entire temple sanctuary - minus the outer court. The altar and the people worshipping within is just a way of saying the inner court. Followed up by saying don't measure the outer court.

Revelation 11:1 - measure the temple complex, i.e. the naos the temple sanctuary + the inner court (represented by the burnt offering altar, and the people worshiping within)


Are you going to spiritualize the 42 months in Revelation 11:2 ?

Here it is again:

Since Scripture interprets Scripture, there must be at least one other Scripture where Paul refers to the literal temple structure as "naos".

Where is that Scripture?
 
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Douggg

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Here it is again:

Since Scripture interprets Scripture, there must be at least one other Scripture where Paul refers to the literal temple structure as "naos".

Where is that Scripture?
I have already answered that question and why in my post #99.

You have yet to respond to my question of are you spiritualizing the 42 months in Revelation 11:2 as well ?
 
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Douggg

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There is no prince to come and stop a daily sacrifice in a newly erected Old Testament tabernacle. It's this determination of yours to hang onto believing false doctrine and refusal to hear sound doctrine that keeps you blind. The foundation of your sand castle is built on the sea's side of the high tide mark.
The vision of the little horn stopping the daily sacrifice and committing the transgression of desolation is time of the end - in the text.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

The Jews in Israel are making preparation for that temple.
 
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jgr

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I have already answered that question and why in my post #99.

You have yet to respond to my question of are you spiritualizing the 42 months in Revelation 11:2 as well ?

Last chance:

Since Scripture interprets Scripture, there must be at least one other Scripture where Paul refers to the literal temple structure as "naos".

Where is that Scripture?
 
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Douggg

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Last chance:

Since Scripture interprets Scripture, there must be at least one other Scripture where Paul refers to the literal temple structure as "naos".

Where is that Scripture?
Paul does in 2Thessalonians2:4 but you don't acknowledge it. Jesus destroys the revealed man of sin at his second coming, verse 8.
 
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grafted branch

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Thanks for your response, I feel like we’re having a good conversation here. I don’t take offence in the way you’re explaining things, sometimes it takes several ways of explaining something before I get it.


Therefore I believe that the reason why Paul was describing the Gentiles he was talking to as people who had been strangers and foreigners is not because they were not born of Israel (i.e, of Isaac and Jacob, i.e genetic descendants): The reason why they were strangers and aliens to the commonwealth of Israel is because they were without Christ.

The first promise to Abraham was that he would become the father of many nations (that was the first promise God made to Abraham). The second promise was that Sarah would bear him a son.
I see your reasoning here and I would agree that no one at any point in time can be saved any other way than through faith and the blood of Christ.

Under the Old Testament laws wouldn’t a person’s faith in God be expressed in the keeping of the law? Not that keeping the law meant someone had faith, only that if someone did have faith they would attempt to keep the law. Wouldn’t a Gentile that had faith become an Israelite to show their faith? Just as a New Testament believer shows their faith by being part of the true church (naos). Prior to the cross there was only one place on earth that had the holy of holies/naos and that was Israel.

When the Philistines captured the ark they brought it into the house of Dagon. After they were afflicted they brought the ark back to Israel. Hypothetically speaking would it have been possible for the Philistines, who were without Christ, to lose Dagon, gain Christ, and be able to keep the ark? If so then the Philistines would become the true Israel. I don’t think it was possible for this to happen. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think there were any provisions in the law for Israel to join other nations. I know there were provisions for people of other nations to join Israel.

I’m kind of thinking out loud here and don’t expect you to answer all the above questions, I need to think about this some more, I’m not sure but maybe I do agree with you on this. Do you know of any other examples, besides Nineveh, where someone gained Christ without ever becoming an Israelite?


I understand it as the church (the saints) being overcome in terms of our task in the world: To me Revelation 13:7 is not all about the martyrdom. Though important in terms of the individual's experience, martyrdom is secondary.

Let me explain it this way (Please understand that I know that you know and understand what I am about to say, so I'm not insulting you or trying to be condescending by putting it this way. I'm only putting it this way to explain how I understand the being overcome):

The church (the saints) are not in the world to be 24/7 Christmas decorations. The church has a task in the world:
I’m honestly trying to see how a saved person could consider themselves as being overcome.

The two witnesses are overcome and many people here would say that they are saved or represent saved people. After the 3.5 days the Spirit of life from God entered into them. Again this is clearly not about unsaved people. Revelation 11:7 says when they shall have finished their testimony. If the two witnesses represent the church then it appears to me that their commission is completed prior to them being overcome. So I don’t think the overcoming hinders the two witnesses from accomplishing their task, in fact they should be able to recognize themselves as the two witnesses and understand if their testimony is finished or not. Also Revelation 11:7 says the two witnesses are overcome and killed so I think the overcoming involves something other than being killed.

Since there are so many similarities between John the Baptist and the 2 witnesses I would say an example of overcoming would be found in Luke 7:20 where John the Baptist questions if Jesus is the One that should come. If John the Baptist was overcome at this point I don’t think he would have been aware of it.
 
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grafted branch

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I don't believe that those who are in the naos are the "real" Christians and that there are "professed Christians" outside, in the court of the Gentiles.

Rather, I believe that there has always been a part of God's elect, in the days of the Old Testament as well as in the days of the New Testament, that is a harlot. In the days of the New Testament there is a harlot group who is in the naos through their faith in Christ.

The man of sin, the lawless one, will seat himself in the naos (not in the outer court).
So what about Revelation 21:27 where it says there shall in no wise enter into it anything that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie? Would you say this takes place after the event of the lawless one taking his seat and then getting removed from the naos?
 
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jgr

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jgr, why are you gloating, instead of answering do you spiritualize the 42 months in Revelation 11:2?

Douggg, because you haven't yet answered my question.

Since Scripture interprets Scripture, there must be at least one other Scripture (i.e. other than 2 Thessalonians 2:4) where Paul refers to the literal temple structure as "naos".

Where is that Scripture?
 
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Douggg

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Douggg, because you haven't yet answered my question.

Since Scripture interprets Scripture, there must be at least one other Scripture (i.e. other than 2 Thessalonians 2:4) where Paul refers to the literal temple structure as "naos".

Where is that Scripture?
I asked you my question first. And instead of answering, you go on your naos trip.

Which I respoinded to that question twice, once with an expanded explanation.

It is time that you anwered by question now...
do you spiritualize the 42 months in Revelation 11:2?
 
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jgr

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I asked you my question first. And instead of answering, you go on your naos trip.

Which I respoinded to that question twice, once with an expanded explanation.

It is time that you anwered by question now...
do you spiritualize the 42 months in Revelation 11:2?

This exchange began with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Paul's identification of temples.

Paul didn't write Revelation 11:2.
 
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Douggg

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This exchange began with 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Paul's identification of temples.
The discussion had been going on between myself and others about the use of naos in Revelation 11:1.

You joined in and you made a statement post in your post #72. You did not ask a question in that post.

In my post #73, I ask you a question about the 42 months in Revelation 11:2.

You deflected and went on your nanos trip regarding Paul writings, and not Revelation 11:1. I answered your question twice. You did not like my answer, and made a gloating post.

I now expect you to answer my question originated in my post #73. Do you spiritualize the 42 months in Revelation 11:2, as well ?
 
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jgr

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The discussion had been going on between myself and others about the use of naos in Revelation 11:1.

You joined in and you made a statement post in your post #72. You did not ask a question in that post.

In my post #73, I ask you a question about the 42 months in Revelation 11:2.

You deflected and went on your nanos trip regarding Paul writings, and not Revelation 11:1. I answered your question twice. You did not like my answer, and made a gloating post.

I now expect you to answer my question originated in my post #73. Do you spiritualize the 42 months in Revelation 11:2, as well ?

Since any further rational discourse is obviously impossible because it detonates your fallacies, I'll withdraw henceforth.
 
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DavidPT

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Do you spiritualize the 42 months in Revelation 11:2, as well ?

Preterists need the temple to be literal in order for it to agree with their interpretations involving 70 AD. You need it to be literal in order to agree with your literal interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:4, for one.

John, the one who saw the visions doesn't need it to be literal for either of those reasons. He doesn't need it be a literal temple in order to make it fit with 70 AD. He doesn't need it to be a literal temple in order to make it fit with your literal interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

The kind of work I have done in the past involves the measuring of things. If I told someone to measure that and that and that, would I only be meaning the first thing I said, or would I be meaning everything I said? Obviously the latter. John was instructed by the angel to measure, not just one thing, nor just two things, but three things. And one of those things was those worshiping therein.

If a literal temple is meant, this leads to nonsense since it would mean to literally measure those worshiping therein. That alone means this entire verse, plus verse 2 as well, needs to be interpreted in another sense and not in a literal sense instead.
 
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Zao is life

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So what about Revelation 21:27 where it says there shall in no wise enter into it anything that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie? Would you say this takes place after the event of the lawless one taking his seat and then getting removed from the naos?
Yes. Revelation 21:27 is talking about New Jerusalem in the New Heavens and New Earth, not about the church now. Lots of false "doctrines of Jezebel" enter in and defile the church that exists now.
 
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Douggg

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John, the one who saw the visions doesn't need it to be literal for either of those reasons. He doesn't need it be a literal temple in order to make it fit with 70 AD. He doesn't need it to be a literal temple in order to make it fit with your literal interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:4.
David, the temple in Revelation 11:1 has to be literal for...

1. the prince who shall come to stop the daily sacrifice in Daniel 9:27 and make the temple desolate.

2. the little horn, the same person, to stop the daily sacrifice in Daniel 8:12-13 to make the temple desolate, by the transgression of desolation. Said in the text, Daniel 8:14 to be time of the end.

3. the Antichrist, the same person, to reveal himself as the man of sin, by the transgression of desolation act in 2Thessalonians2:4.

4. for the abomination to be standing in a holy place, to trigger the great tribulation, which end in Matthew 24:30 by Jesus's coming.
 
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Douggg

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If a literal temple is meant, this leads to nonsense since it would mean to literally measure those worshiping therein.

naos - the temple sanctuary building only.

upload_2022-1-3_3-8-30.jpeg



hieron - the entire temple complex; the temple sanctuary building, the burnt offering altar, the inner court, the outer court, and all the other structures.

upload_2022-1-3_3-8-13.jpeg


No word for - the entire temple complex - minus the outer court. The altar and the people worshipping within is just a way of saying the inner court. Followed up by saying don't measure the outer court.

Revelation 11:1 - measure the temple complex, i.e. the naos the temple sanctuary buidling + the inner court (represented by the burnt offering altar, and the people worshiping within).

The outer court, don't include it.

upload_2022-1-3_3-9-3.jpeg


The temple to be built on the temple mount will have the Holy of Holies sanctuary building and one wall. In similitude to the tent tabernacle complex in the Exodus.

upload_2022-1-3_3-49-37.jpeg


The remainder of the temple mount will be opened space, where the gentiles will worship. And later the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast will be setup. Signaling the Jews to flee to the mountains.
 
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Zao is life

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I see your reasoning here and I would agree that no one at any point in time can be saved any other way than through faith and the blood of Christ.

Under the Old Testament laws wouldn’t a person’s faith in God be expressed in the keeping of the law? Not that keeping the law meant someone had faith, only that if someone did have faith they would attempt to keep the law. Wouldn’t a Gentile that had faith become an Israelite to show their faith? Just as a New Testament believer shows their faith by being part of the true church (naos). Prior to the cross there was only one place on earth that had the holy of holies/naos and that was Israel.

When the Philistines captured the ark they brought it into the house of Dagon. After they were afflicted they brought the ark back to Israel. Hypothetically speaking would it have been possible for the Philistines, who were without Christ, to lose Dagon, gain Christ, and be able to keep the ark? If so then the Philistines would become the true Israel. I don’t think it was possible for this to happen. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think there were any provisions in the law for Israel to join other nations. I know there were provisions for people of other nations to join Israel.

I’m kind of thinking out loud here and don’t expect you to answer all the above questions, I need to think about this some more, I’m not sure but maybe I do agree with you on this. Do you know of any other examples, besides Nineveh, where someone gained Christ without ever becoming an Israelite?
You and I are seeing this differently. Jesus is the Wod of God. Abraham received the Word of God and Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness. This was long before Christ shed His blood:
I see your reasoning here and I would agree that no one at any point in time can be saved any other way than through faith and the blood of Christ.
The Israelites, who were descended from Abraham, received the Word of God (Romans 9:4-5). The vast majority of ten of the Israelite tribes were broken off from Israel because of their spiritual harlotry in circa 725 B.C, and the northern kingdom (the ten tribes), very often collectively called "Ephraim" in scripture, ceased being a nation before God (Isaiah 7:8; Hosea chapter 1).

That left the Jews and Benjamin to bear the torch. They were chastized for their spiritual adultery and harlotry by being exiled and held captive in Babylon for 70 years, from circa 587 B.C to 517 B.C.

Jesus is the Word of God. When those of the Jews showed their unbelief in the Word of God by rejecting Him, they too, were broken off, and if God did so with the Jews, He will do so with the Gentiles who claim to believe the Word of God also (Romans 11:22-23) if they prove either their unbelief of the Word of God, or if they show their faith in the Word of God + the word of another god (harlotry, adultery, false doctrines). I believe we should note that before Adam & Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they believed the lie (compare 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12).

So the reason why the Philistines could not steal the election from Israel by stealing the ark of the covenant is because God had chosen the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be the torch-bearers, the vessel for His Word, and no one can just decide otherwise for themselves. No one has the right to attempt to change the mind of God. His will is His will. This is also why God did not accept the temple of the Samaritans on Mt Gerizim. This is also why God will never again accept a temple in Jerusalem. Christ is the temple of God. We have so many statements by Jesus and His apostles (and the word naos) to prove this.

So the Gentiles in Old Testament times who believed in the God of Abraham would need to become an Israelite in order to join God's elect people, and go through whatever rituals the priests and law-givers who sat in Moses' seat required of them, and because it was before the time of Christ, they would need to keep the Law God required His elect nation to keep, showing that they believed the Word of God, in much the same way that today those who come to faith in Christ, whether Jews or Gentiles, are told they should be baptized in order to show their faith in Christ, who is the Word of God, and in so doing also showing their baptism into Christ, which had already taken place when they believed.

But it's never been about genetic ancestry. It's always been about belief vs unbelief of the Word of God, and God elected a nation to carry His Word to the nations. When they rejected His Word, God elected another nation which consists of a multitude of nations and is called the Kingdom of Christ.
 
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