Clarifying the Debate "basics" on Sabbath and the TEN Commandments

BobRyan said:

True - as we can see this thread is about the Ten Commandments and in your case I am offering to make it even simpler - so down to just one commandment "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7

The more simple we make this - the more determined you appear to be not to discuss it.

If that is how you want to leave it - it is fine with me. The choice is yours - you have free will.

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It's not where I want to leave it, but if this thread is only about the ten commandments
and my earlier posting here was based on a mutual misunderstanding,
then I will move on to other threads.

Peace be with you. Hope to see you around!

BABerean2 said:

What then has become "obsolete"?

Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

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Context on Hebrews passages that are cited show what is meant by the passages, though passages of Hebrews are so generally referred to out of context. So further familarity with the Bible is needed. In this case the context shows it is about the priesthood, the sacrificing, and the way to be made clean, though the way for that was only for being ritually clean, to come before God. The real effective way is just in the new covenant with the priesthood, the sacrifice, and the way to be effectively clean to come before God for anything is just in Jesus Christ. In this new covenant the commandments from God are in the believers hearts (their center of their being), and as such that is sin is shown from the commandments, to not sin will have correspondence to the ten commandments that Moses brought down from Yahweh God.

I know to not misuse the name of God, and I bring that to the attention of others. Each of the ten commandments show how we should live and what would be wrong. Not honoring parents is wrong. But not honoring them is done very often still, I see, while it is not right. And having no other gods but Yahweh is important, we are even to be a testimony for that. I came ultimately years ago to the conclusion I should remember the Sabbath, which the Bible indicates is holy anyway, so this is independent of our choices and actions, but there is blessing from God with resting and coming to God on this seventh day, starting from the evening before to sundown at the end of the seventh day, every seven days, which God indicated continues on. Do I do so perfectly? I know I am not perfect, that is not the point in coming to God to grow in spiritual living. And I used to have to work on the seventh day earlier in my life, and so I understand the difficulty for others. I have had to work on the first day of the week also at some work I have had. I don't blame workers for those circumstances, but employers are in violation of the commandment when they require the employees to come to work even when they want to observe the seventh day of rest. We should not have any others working for us on the seventh day, not even any animals doing so for us.

I just gradually learn to do so better, with seeing more it involves, and knowing more preparation is needed, and some preparation still waits for me to afford things for that, yet I rest as many of us can do on Sabbath, on the seventh day, with some Bible reading and studying and sharing from that, and with prayer. I wait for it to be over before cooking something, and eat from food not needing to be cooked during that time. Even while I know I will learn to be better on this I observe remembering when it is Sabbath, for what I do according to that. Most others of us can do that, and I would encourage it, why not?

FredVB said:

Context on Hebrews passages that are cited show what is meant by the passages, though passages of Hebrews are so generally referred to out of context. So further familarity with the Bible is needed. In this case the context shows it is about the priesthood, the sacrificing, and the way to be made clean, though the way for that was only for being ritually clean, to come before God. The real effective way is just in the new covenant with the priesthood, the sacrifice, and the way to be effectively clean to come before God for anything is just in Jesus Christ. In this new covenant the commandments from God are in the believers hearts (their center of their being), and as such that is sin is shown from the commandments, to not sin will have correspondence to the ten commandments that Moses brought down from Yahweh God.

I know to not misuse the name of God, and I bring that to the attention of others. Each of the ten commandments show how we should live and what would be wrong. Not honoring parents is wrong. But not honoring them is done very often still, I see, while it is not right. And having no other gods but Yahweh is important, we are even to be a testimony for that. I came ultimately years ago to the conclusion I should remember the Sabbath, which the Bible indicates is holy anyway, so this is independent of our choices and actions, but there is blessing from God with resting and coming to God on this seventh day, starting from the evening before to sundown at the end of the seventh day, every seven days, which God indicated continues on. Do I do so perfectly? I know I am not perfect, that is not the point in coming to God to grow in spiritual living. And I used to have to work on the seventh day earlier in my life, and so I understand the difficulty for others. I have had to work on the first day of the week also at some work I have had. I don't blame workers for those circumstances, but employers are in violation of the commandment when they require the employees to come to work even when they want to observe the seventh day of rest. We should not have any others working for us on the seventh day, not even any animals doing so for us.

I just gradually learn to do so better, with seeing more it involves, and knowing more preparation is needed, and some preparation still waits for me to afford things for that, yet I rest as many of us can do on Sabbath, on the seventh day, with some Bible reading and studying and sharing from that, and with prayer. I wait for it to be over before cooking something, and eat from food not needing to be cooked during that time. Even while I know I will learn to be better on this I observe remembering when it is Sabbath, for what I do according to that. Most others of us can do that, and I would encourage it, why not?

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I read your post with amazement. First, the new covenant was made with Israel and Judah. It was not made with gentiles. I happen to believe Jesus made the new covenant open for gentiles, but scripture does not prove my point. Just as there is no scriptural proof that the covenants are the same except the old one was written on stone and in a book and the new those same laws are written on the heart. You seem to believe the covenant only contained the 10 commandments. There is no proof of that either. Without the laws written in the book those breaking Sabbath rules had to be stoned to ☠ and the command to love would not be part of the covenant.

So, to sum up what you are telling us all the laws of the old covenant that pertain to Israel and Judah are written on the Jews ❤s. Since the covenant only addresses Israel and Judah Gentiles are not under any rules to keep them according to you.

Now let's get real. Jesus' main theme in the New Testament is ❤. In fact, the greatest commandment ever given is that we love others as Jesus loves us. Isn't it reasonable that the love command should have top priority as to what is written on our hearts? There is nothing about love in the 10 commandments, absolutely no command to love. Jesus command to take the Gospel to all the World has to contain the love commandment to gentiles everywhere. Gentiles were never commanded to observe the Sabbath. That command was only important to one group of people on Earth, Israel. Something to ponder.

Bob S said:

I read your post with amazement. First, the new covenant was made with Israel and Judah. It was not made with gentiles. I happen to believe Jesus made the new covenant open for gentiles, but scripture does not prove my point. Just as there is no scriptural proof that the covenants are the same except the old one was written on stone and in a book and the new those same laws are written on the heart. You seem to believe the covenant only contained the 10 commandments. There is no proof of that either. Without the laws written in the book those breaking Sabbath rules had to be stoned to ☠ and the command to love would not be part of the covenant.

So, to sum up what you are telling us all the laws of the old covenant that pertain to Israel and Judah are written on the Jews ❤s. Since the covenant only addresses Israel and Judah Gentiles are not under any rules to keep them according to you.

Now let's get real. Jesus' main theme in the New Testament is ❤. In fact, the greatest commandment ever given is that we love others as Jesus loves us. Isn't it reasonable that the love command should have top priority as to what is written on our hearts? There is nothing about love in the 10 commandments, absolutely no command to love. Jesus command to take the Gospel to all the World has to contain the love commandment to gentiles everywhere. Gentiles were never commanded to observe the Sabbath. That command was only important to one group of people on Earth, Israel. Something to ponder.

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Jesus said Salvation was of the Jews. The Covenant that "changed" was the One God made with Levi on Israel's behalf.

Paul said Israel fell in part, so that Gentiles could be Grafted in to the Holy Root and "Partake with them" of the Root.

Rom. 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

The "WAY" of the Lord is HIS Way. He gave it to Israel, HE didn't create it for Israel. God is not a Jew. As for your preaching regarding Gentiles.

Is. 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

These are actual Holy Scriptures to "ponder" which cast darkness over much of your religious philosophy you are promoting.

Studyman said:

Jesus said Salvation was of the Jews. The Covenant that "changed" was the One God made with Levi on Israel's behalf.

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You keep telling the same story and no one believes it. Could you be the one that is wrong?

Paul said Israel fell in part, so that Gentiles could be Grafted in to the Holy Root and "Partake with them" of the Root.

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Thank you Israel for being so unfaithful. Is that what we are to believe? There were no broken Israelite branches yet Abraham, the gentile, was saved.

The "WAY" of the Lord is HIS Way. He gave it to Israel, HE didn't create it for Israel. God is not a Jew. As for your preaching regarding Gentiles.

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And Israel only. If a gentile felt the need to join the Israelites there was a way. God didn't send the Israelites to other nations to persuade them to abide by Israel's covenant.

why don't you debate the issues of my post. well, I guess you are too busy promoting your theory.

Bob S said:

You keep telling the same story and no one believes it. Could you be the one that is wrong?

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I'm going by how the Creator of His New Covenant defines HIS OWN New Covenant. "Many" who come in Jesus Name, as prophesied, preach the falsehood that the Old Covenant is the Old Testament. I have posted the Scriptures which clearly show it is not but "many" will not examine or even acknowledge these Scriptures. Like the Pharisees before them, their religion is their most precious possession and they will not be persuaded otherwise, not even by the Word of God Himself.

Jesus tells us why in John 3:19.

Thank you Israel for being so unfaithful. Is that what we are to believe? There were no broken Israelite branches yet Abraham, the gentile, was saved.

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Again, when a man considers the actual Word's of God, they find that Caleb, Abel, Noah, Job, Rehab, Gideon, Zacharias, Simeon, were all Faithful to God, and they all knew of, and believed in the Messiah.

There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ, not now, not as the Man Jesus, and not as the Word of God which became flesh.

Ex. 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

"Israelite" is a name God placed on people who were "Israel-like". That is, a man who is faithful to God was called "Like Jacob, or "Like Israel". The term "Christian" is meant in the same way, "Christ-like", that is, a man who is faithful to God like Jesus was..

But like Jesus said, "Not everyone who calls Him Lord, Lord, are faithful to God. Just as Paul says "A jew is one inwardly, not outwardly."

Rom. 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

So when your creator says; "

IS. 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.

4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

These become "Israelite like", or "Christ Like".

Paul confirms all this in Rom. 11.

But as Jesus warned, "many" refuse to accept HIS Truth.

And Israel only. If a gentile felt the need to join the Israelite's there was a way. God didn't send the Israelite's to other nations to persuade them to abide by Israel's covenant.

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It was always God's Covenant, and anyone was welcome to join as God, though Isaiah, just told you. The first Covenant God gave Israel, was His Covenant HE gave to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They broke that Covenant, and God "ADDED" a Priesthood Covenant with Levi to provide for the administration of God's Words, and to provide temporary sacrificial "works of the Law" for forgiveness. At least according to scriptures.

Jer. 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

As Paul says in Gal. 3, "the Law" concerning sacrifices for sins was "ADDED" because of Transgressions "Til the Seed should Come".

This Priesthood is what Prophesied to change. Not God's definition of Sin or instruction in Righteousness. That doctrine is from the prince of this world, who convinces man "they shall surely not die" regardless of lawlessness.

Your unbelief in the Scriptures is certainly not new, and certainly doesn't make God's Word Void.

why don't you debate the issues of my post. well, I guess you are too busy promoting your theory.

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The Spirit of Christ teaches that a little leaven leavens the whole lump. With your foundation resting on the falsehood that the New Covenant of God is the abolition of the Law and Prophets, or the Laws of God, everything you read is infected by this leaven.

You used to follow White around, now it seems you have traded her for Calvin. I am hoping you might "beware" of these religious philosophers of this world and place your trust in the Holy Scriptures as Paul instructs.

Once you quit listening to all those "Other voices" in the garden God placed you in, and stop cherry picking scriptures, believing some and rejecting others, then our debate will be minimal as we will both believe in the same WORDS, as Jesus instructed.

"Man shall live by every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God".

Until then, you will just be another follower of the smorgasbord of religious philosophies of this world, promoting and defending what ever doctrines are peddled by the religious franchise you are donating to at this time.

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

BobRyan said:

until you read Romans 2, Romans 9, 1 Peter 2:9-10 ... etc.

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Sorry Bob the verses you claim say I am part of the new covenant were only rabbit trails. How about the etc?

Every seven days determines Sabbath, as all Jews observe it.

Genesis 2:2-3
On the seventh day God finished his work which he had done; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done. God blessed the seventh day, and made it holy, because he rested in it from all his work of creation which he had done.

Exodus 20:11
In six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore Yahweh blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy.

Exodus 31:15
Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to Yahweh.

Leviticus 23:3
“‘Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation; you shall do no kind of work. It is a Sabbath to Yahweh in all your dwellings."

It is to understand that every seventh day is holy, it is holy to Yahweh, is is in perpetuity as was said, and that people live in ways not holy does not change it, when that seventh day is appointed for resting from things any work at to come to Yahweh and give attention to Godly things, having communion with Yahweh God through Christ, who alone ever makes that possible.

Bob S said:

I read your post with amazement. First, the new covenant was made with Israel and Judah. It was not made with gentiles. I happen to believe Jesus made the new covenant open for gentiles, but scripture does not prove my point. Just as there is no scriptural proof that the covenants are the same except the old one was written on stone and in a book and the new those same laws are written on the heart. You seem to believe the covenant only contained the 10 commandments. There is no proof of that either. Without the laws written in the book those breaking Sabbath rules had to be stoned to ☠ and the command to love would not be part of the covenant.

So, to sum up what you are telling us all the laws of the old covenant that pertain to Israel and Judah are written on the Jews ❤s. Since the covenant only addresses Israel and Judah Gentiles are not under any rules to keep them according to you.

Now let's get real. Jesus' main theme in the New Testament is ❤. In fact, the greatest commandment ever given is that we love others as Jesus loves us. Isn't it reasonable that the love command should have top priority as to what is written on our hearts? There is nothing about love in the 10 commandments, absolutely no command to love. Jesus command to take the Gospel to all the World has to contain the love commandment to gentiles everywhere. Gentiles were never commanded to observe the Sabbath. That command was only important to one group of people on Earth, Israel. Something to ponder.

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Seriously, the new covenant is for those of Israel and Judah and not any gentiles? Did you misstate that? The blood of Jesus Christ is of the new covenant, what you said would mean gentiles are all left out of that, the apostolic council in Jerusalem for believers several years later would be meaningless then. That thinking would be senseless with disregarding many scriptures.

And the commandments are written on the heart of each believer in the new covenant. The penalties in the law of the old covenant are fulfilled through Christ who bore it all for all of us who are believers, that is the blood of the new covenant making it possible. So the effective things for the law are still done in Christ, who is the effective priesthood, the effective sacrificing, the effective way for any to be made clean before God in the way iy counts to come to God at all. The commandments to avoid sin against God's will are the same, God's mind does not change.

Sabbath was shown the seventh day after the days of creation in the beginning. Jesus Christ did say the Sabbath was made for man, there is this, and Jesus Christ did not only come for those of Israel and Judah, but for other flock from which others would be grafted in to live for Yahweh God, whose will is the way for how all are to live.

FredVB said:

It is to understand that every seventh day is holy, it is holy to Yahweh, is is in perpetuity as was said, and that people live in ways not holy does not change it, when that seventh day is appointed for resting from things any work at to come to Yahweh and give attention to Godly things, having communion with Yahweh God through Christ, who alone ever makes that possible.

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It seems that you are pushing communion with Jesus one day a week. I prefer to commune every day.

Seriously, the new covenant is for those of Israel and Judah and not any gentiles? Did you misstate that?

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You mean did the scriptures mistake that. I only wrote what I read in Hebrews and Jeremiah. You can take that up with someone with a higher MOS than me. I did clarify that I believe Gentiles are invited in by Jesus. Maybe you need some new glasses, Fred.

The blood of Jesus Christ is of the new covenant, what you said would mean gentiles are all left out of that, the apostolic council in Jerusalem for believers several years later would be meaningless then. That thinking would be senseless with disregarding many scriptures.

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Again Fred, I only quoted Jer 31 and the words found in Hebrews concerning the covenants. The new covenant is with Judah and Israel.

And the commandments are written on the heart of each believer in the new covenant.

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What commandment are written on the hearts of believers Fred?

The penalties in the law of the old covenant are fulfilled through Christ who bore it all for all of us who are believers, that is the blood of the new covenant making it possible.

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Actually, all the laws of the old covenant became void at Calvary. The old covenant which contained those laws was broken by Israel and Jesus ended it and replaced it with the new everlasting covenant.
Jesus told us that He kept the Father's commandments and asked us to keep His Jn 15:10-14. 1Jn 3:19-24 tells us what the commandments that we are required to keep. Both tell us to love our fellow man. Nothing is said about the 10 commandments. In fact, Paul writes in 2Cor3: 6-11 that the 10 commandments were temporary and done away. Who should I believe, you or scripture?

So the effective things for the law are still done in Christ, who is the effective priesthood, the effective sacrificing, the effective way for any to be made clean before God in the way iy counts to come to God at all. The commandments to avoid sin against God's will are the same, God's mind does not change.

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What "effective" things? Remember the law contained 613 commands. The greatest commands are found in the ones you cull. How is that being effective?

Sabbath was shown the seventh day after the days of creation in the beginning. Jesus Christ did say the Sabbath was made for man, there is this, and Jesus Christ did not only come for those of Israel and Judah, but for other flock from which others would be grafted in to live for Yahweh God, whose will is the way for how all are to live.

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Tell us the reason why God didn't command every living soul to observe the Sabbath? There is absolutely no history or evidence of any other nation proclaiming the Sabbath. Some nations didn't even go by the seven-day calendar.

Yes, Jesus came for all mankind. I believe that with all my ❤, but the fact is that the old and new covenants name Israel and Judah and no one else. Why, I have no idea and will have to wait until I get to Heaven, then I can ask Jesus.

Bob S said:

It seems that you are pushing communion with Jesus one day a week. I prefer to commune every day.

You mean did the scriptures mistake that. I only wrote what I read in Hebrews and Jeremiah. You can take that up with someone with a higher MOS than me. I did clarify that I believe Gentiles are invited in by Jesus. Maybe you need some new glasses, Fred.

Again Fred, I only quoted Jer 31 and the words found in Hebrews concerning the covenants. The new covenant is with Judah and Israel.

What commandment are written on the hearts of believers Fred?

Actually, all the laws of the old covenant became void at Calvary. The old covenant which contained those laws was broken by Israel and Jesus ended it and replaced it with the new everlasting covenant.
Jesus told us that He kept the Father's commandments and asked us to keep His Jn 15:10-14. 1Jn 3:19-24 tells us what the commandments that we are required to keep. Both tell us to love our fellow man. Nothing is said about the 10 commandments. In fact, Paul writes in 2Cor3: 6-11 that the 10 commandments were temporary and done away. Who should I believe, you or scripture?

What "effective" things? Remember the law contained 613 commands. The greatest commands are found in the ones you cull. How is that being effective?

Tell us the reason why God didn't command every living soul to observe the Sabbath? There is absolutely no history or evidence of any other nation proclaiming the Sabbath. Some nations didn't even go by the seven-day calendar.

Yes, Jesus came for all mankind. I believe that with all my ❤, but the fact is that the old and new covenants name Israel and Judah and no one else. Why, I have no idea and will have to wait until I get to Heaven, then I can ask Jesus.

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Where did you get in all I said that communion with God is only for one out of seven days? I don't claim that. Scriptures show that one day of seven is for reserving, for there to be much more time available for it on that day.

I don't know why there are the personal remarks. The Hebrews passages are about sacrifice and atonement, and the priestly system and being made clean. Commandments are not the issue there. Which commandments? All that would apply to believers generally. Not the way of prosecuting violations, Christ bore that for those coming to be in him, in faith. But the atonement was not for enabling believers to no longer be obedient, they should be obedient from their heart. The new covenant is in the blood of Christ, and it is for believers whether from Israel or from any gentile people.

FredVB said:

Where did you get in all I said that communion with God is only for one out of seven days? I don't claim that. Scriptures show that one day of seven is for reserving, for there to be much more time available for it on that day.

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Much more time? I really do not understand that. Do you think we have to put aside everything in life in order to commune. Does it take 24 hours to commune? If we engage another person in conversation about some secular subject on the Sabbath day are we sinning? I happen to have a 40 year background as a member of the SDA church And I cannot say that I ever went the day without secular interference, most often consuming most of my waking hours. I would like to know even one SDA that could truthfully tell me that they do not engage in secular thoughts or conversation. So much for 24 hours of communion with God. Need I say more on the subject?

I don't know why there are the personal remarks.

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Thanks for your observation. Generic terms should be used when possible. Sometimes we write things that that would be better not written.

The Hebrews passages are about sacrifice and atonement, and the priestly system and being made clean. Commandments are not the issue there.

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I didn't think I gave the impression they were. My thoughts are that the accounts of the two covenants were/are for Israel and Judah. The covenants didn't include Gentiles.

Which commandments? All that would apply to believers generally.

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SDAs include the ritual weekly Sabbath and the other ritual Sabbaths commands are deemed to be nailed to the ✝. The ten commands do not include the greatest commands God gave Israel, love for God and love for their fellow man.

FredVB said:

Each of the ten commandments show how we should live and what would be wrong.

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I don't think I agree on what even counts as the 10 commandments. The list in Ex 20//Deut 5 is well known, but lesser known is the list in Ex 34

"Ex 34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."

I think this list of 10 commandments is ignored because its commands aren't followed. I think there is a tendency for those fixed on following the 10 commandments to cherry pick which list of 10 commandments they prefer. They insist there is a list of 10 commandments that take priority over other commands, but there is a list the bible itself explicitly calls "ten commandments" which is ignored. So I'm not clear on why one list of 10 commandments is selected over another.

As I have written many times the ten didn't even include the greatest command of all commands, LOVE. Is it any wonder they were only temporary commands to guide a nation that just came out of 400 years of bondage.

Just being honest Bob.

BobRyan said:

Nor does any NT writer include the commandment "Do not take God's name in vain" ...

Interesting details - but they mean nothing when it comes to efforts to delete one of God's commandments.

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Delete one???? Every law God gave to Israel was deleted when the old covenant was replaced with the new. All of the commands that deal with morality are included in the Royal Law of Love.