O.B.N.C.

fhansen · Oct 15, 2021

MMXX said:
The standard as I understand it, is that even Mother Teresa would not be justified without being a believer.

no one has a problem with faith. It’s considered absolutely essential. It’s faith, alone, that means little. Mother Teresa would never have been considered much if all she did was sit around and point to her self-proclaimed faith.

fhansen · Oct 15, 2021

Faith is important because God is important: man + God rather than man alone. That’s what Paul is emphasizing. Everything starts with faith because man can do nothing apart from God (John 15:5), including love as he should. Faith places us in that rightly ordered state of fellowship with God.

Ceallaigh · Oct 15, 2021

fhansen said:
no one has a problem with faith. It’s considered absolutely essential. It’s faith, alone, that means little. Mother Teresa would never have been considered much if all she did was sit around and point to her self-proclaimed faith.

So faith is false if someone sits around. I understand what you've been saying all along just fine. But the parameters are all over the place. And I figure that's because it can't really be clearly defined.

Ceallaigh · Oct 15, 2021

fhansen said:
Faith is important because God is important: man + God rather than man alone. That’s what Paul is emphasizing. Everything starts with faith because man can do nothing apart from God (John 15:5), including love as he should. Faith places us in that rightly ordered state of fellowship with God.

How does one define "love as he should" as the co-requirement for justification.

fhansen · Oct 15, 2021

MMXX said:
How does one define "love as he should" as the co-requirement for justification.

Its not a co-requirement; it’s the requirement. It’s the righteousness that defines ones justice, the justice in justification, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are. It’s the law which God places in our minds and writes on our hearts. We can’t achieve it of the necessary quality and quantity on our own which is why the law cannot justify us; only God can do that work in us, can cause us to love as we should, as He does, beginning as we turn to Him in faith. Faith, IOW, is not a license that frees us from the obligation to be righteous, rather it’s a license that opens the door to that very righteousness. It opens the door to God when He knocks, who forgives and sets us free from sin and replaces it with the virtues which include hope and love in addition to faith. He justifies us.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 15, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Nope. All humans are born spiritually DEAD already. So no one can "die spiritually" on the basis of sin. Haven't you ever read Romans 5?

fhansen said:
Adam died spiritually, and the rest of us with him.

That's why everyone is born spiritually dead.

And, yes, we can die again; we can return to the flesh.

If that were true, there would be clear Scripture making that point. So, where is your evidence from Scripture?

Further, it would be absolutely absurd to claim that a spiritually dead person can die again.

Also, when a person believes, they possess eternal life, per John 5:24. So, how do you explain FROM SCRIPTURE that a person who possesses eternal life can die?

iow, the very meaning of "eternal life" PROVES that it CANNOT die.

Your claims are absurd. And totally unscriptural.

There was no need to address any of the verses you quoted in your post. Instead, you need to explain how eternal life can die, and prove it from Scripture.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 15, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
when God saves someone, God CHANGES THEM. They become a new creature. There are NO verses that teach that this "new creature" can revert back to an old one.

Doug Brents said:
We become a new creature spiritually.

This new creature POSSESSES eternal life. So explain HOW eternal life can die, from Scripture. If you can't do that, you have been totally refuted by John 5:24.

But that new Spirit still lives in the flesh with all its tendency toward sin.

Actually, you have no proof from Scripture of this claim. When God created man "in His image", that means that God created man trichotomous; body, soul, spirit. When Adam rebelled, his human spirit DIED "on that day".

When a person believes in Christ, they are born again, or regenerated. This means that the dead human spirit is what is born AGAIN or RE-generated.

Where do you think the Holy Spirit resides in a believer?

That is why Paul lamented that what his new spirit wants to do (good),it doesn’t do. But what he does not want to do(sin), he does (Rom 7:24-25).

Sure. However, none of what you have posted supports, much less proves, your initial claim.

The problem is your claim that eternal life can die. If that were true, then the description "eternal" has no meaning whatsoever. The accurate word would be "conditional" or "temporary".

FreeGrace2 · Oct 15, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Nope. All humans are born spiritually DEAD already. So no one can "die spiritually" on the basis of sin. Haven't you ever read Romans 5?

Doug Brents said:
Sorry to have to correct you again

lol, you really crack me up. ^_^

but Rom 5:12 says that death spread to all men because all men sin. We are not born spiritually dead. We die spiraitually when we sin the first time.

Why don't you please read all of the context?

Do you think that Adam's DEAD human spirit isn't transmitted through procreation?

Or that a spiritually dead person can produce a baby that has a living human spirit?

fhansen · Oct 15, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Further, it would be absolutely absurd to claim that a spiritually dead person can die again.

That’s not what was said. Adam was spiritually alive, and died. We can rise again to life, and die again, The scripture has been presented, more than once. A grafted branch broken back off is one who’s dead to God. And it’s all metaphor to begin with. Fallen man is also characterized as being lost, in need of being found, sick, in need of being cured, asleep, in need of being awoken.

FreeGrace2 said:
iow, the very meaning of "eternal life" PROVES that it CANNOT die.

Eternal life is a gift, associated with our being justified. A gift can be rejected, which is done to the extent that one mocks God by living unjustly. The scripture has been presented. You choose to ignore it. Here’s one more.
“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

We reap what we sow. Gal 6:8

FreeGrace2 · Oct 15, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I've already asked for you to point out my problems.

It seems to me that this means that you can't actually point out my problems.

MMXX said:
That would be because I never meant your personal problems.

What makes you think I was referring to personal problems? You brought up my "problems" and I simply asked you to point them out. I took your comment to refer to theological problems.

When I said problem points, I was talking about free grace theology as a whole. Not about you personally in any way shape or form.

I knew that. So, what problems can you point out?

One problem with Free Grace theology is a Christian can get the idea that it's okay to sin in abundance because they're already forgiven of all wrongdoing they'll commit in the future.

That is NOT freegrace theology. That's stupidity. There may be some stupid people who identify as "free grace" but that's not the belief of the majority.

In fact, most are fully aware of God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) for rebellious believers. And the Bible has many examples of God's discipline. So NO ONE "gets away" with their sin.

Another is that I've heard Free Grace proponents say that those who follow RCC or Lordship Salvation soteriology are unsaved because they interpret James 2 as saying faith needs to be accompanied by works.

Now you cite "some people" who make claims. Is that how you judge a theology? By what some people claim or think? Not very scholarly.

The bottom line of ANY theology is to support the claims with Scripture that says what is being claimed. The Bible has a lot to say about how to be saved. Very clearly. So that's the gold standard.

So even though they believe in Christ as their savior and have faith in Christ to save, since they've attached works to it, they are going to hell.

Here is how to discern the truth. IF the person believes in Christ BUT also believes that they can lose their salvation by their lifestyle, are they REALLY believing solely in Christ for salvation? That's the question that must be asked.

However, if a person does believes solely on Christ for salvation, and fully trusting in Him alone, but then afterward someone teaches them the false doctrine of losing salvation, they are still saved, but now following doctrines of demons. Satan doesn't want believers haing full assurance in their salvation. He wants them to DOUBT WHAT GOD HAS SAID. Just as he did to Eve a long time ago.

And that in of itself seems to be basing salvation on the person rather than on God.

Yes it is. In fact, it really makes the person his/her own savior. Much like Satan's huge "god complex".

It's saying that belief and faith alone won't get you to heaven, if you also think salvation is synergistic in any way as opposed to viewing it as it being purely monergistic.

Correct.

However, a question. With salvation being monergistic, how do you view the act of believing in and receiving salvation?

FreeGrace2 · Oct 15, 2021

MMXX said:
I figure most who believe in free grace would say a person who went though life with no redeeming characteristic whatsoever was never really a believer.

The sole criteria is whether such a person ever trusted solely in Christ for salvation. Because, if so, at that moment, they possessed eternal life. And Jesus said in John 10:28 that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

Personally think it would be pretty hard to pull off going though life without a single change of heart and a single act of charity. Even for a really sinful unbeliever.

Well, the Bible gives us a clear example of just such a person. Simon the sorcerer, in Acts 8.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 15, 2021

fhansen said:
Faith is important because God is important: man + God rather than man alone. That’s what Paul is emphasizing. Everything starts with faith because man can do nothing apart from God (John 15:5), including love as he should. Faith places us in that rightly ordered state of fellowship with God.

No. Paul's point, and the Bible's point is simple and clear: God saves those who believe.

Man must trust what God says. That is the key to salvation. Not what man does in effort to please.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 15, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Further, it would be absolutely absurd to claim that a spiritually dead person can die again.

fhansen said:
That’s not what was said.

Your comment insinuated that a baby isn't spiritually dead until they grow up some and sin. But you haven't proved that.

Adam was spiritually alive, and died. We can rise again to life, and die again

Show me the biblical proof of this claim.

The scripture has been presented, more than once.

These claims are just so tired. No, you haven't. Ever.

A grafted branch broken back off is one who’s dead to God. And it’s all metaphor to begin with. Fallen man is also characterized as being lost, in need of being found, sick, in need of being cured, asleep, in need of being awoken.

Those using metaphors or parables for their doctrines are on very shaky ground. Jesus never gave them for doctrines. They were given to further confuse those who weren't interested in truth.

Eternal life is a gift, associated with our being justified. A gift can be rejected

This statement basically REJECTS the truth of John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12. Both verses teach that condemnation is for those who "have not believed".

So, those who have been given the gift "shall never perish" according to Jesus in John 10:28. iow, once given the gift, it CANNOT BE REJECTEED.

fhansen · Oct 15, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Your comment insinuated that a baby isn't spiritually dead until they grow up some and sin. But you haven't proved that.

No, I never said anything like that.

FreeGrace2 said:
Show me the biblical proof of this claim.

I have. The branches have no life apart from the vine; that's WHY we're exhorted to remain in Him. John 15

FreeGrace2 said:
These claims are just so tired. No, you haven't. Ever.

Until one begins to listen, little wisdom is gained.

FreeGrace2 said:
Those using metaphors or parables for their doctrines are on very shaky ground. Jesus never gave them for doctrines. They were given to further confuse those who weren't interested in truth.

Well, apparently that's worked on yourself then.

FreeGrace2 said:
This statement basically REJECTS the truth of John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12. Both verses teach that condemnation is for those who "have not believed".

They're condemned because they lack the authentic righteousness that only faith can provide, because only God can provide it.
"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 3:21-22

FreeGrace2 said:
So, those who have been given the gift "shall never perish" according to Jesus in John 10:28. iow, once given the gift, it CANNOT BE REJECTEED.

Of course it can be rejected-by those not given to Jesus. Your fruit, or lack of it, your "lifestyle", and continuation in it, will ultimately bear this out. As the church teaches, "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love." God knows His own-and their hearts, their motivations. Those who did "for the least of these", for example, in Matt 25, are His sheep-and they didn't even know it! It's not about how we look on the outside, it's a matter of who we are, who we've become, on the inside. It's not a matter of what we do per se, but of why we do it.

fhansen · Oct 15, 2021

MMXX said:
So faith is false if someone sits around. I understand what you've been saying all along just fine. But the parameters are all over the place. And I figure that's because it can't really be clearly defined.

The church has made effort to understand it, but man necessarily judges by appearances while only God can see fully into the heart-we don't even know our own hearts so well. So while man can "fake goodness", good acts can also be motivated by true righteousness, by love. When they are so motivated then our righteousness already surpasses that of the Pharisees and teachers of the law-Matt 5:20.

So the church teaches that we'll be judged on our love. To the extent that we love, we don't concern ourselves with the law; our obedience is free and authentic. Love is the arrival at the goal God has set for man; it's the reason He created us: His own motivation and the motivation He wants to become ours. It's a good goal, incomparably so, requiring struggle to attain, the lack of it is the reason why the world is as it is-and why it's taking so long to get it where He'll ultimately have it.

So while appearances can be phony, they can also reveal a heart that loves-or fails to. So the Church knows that, while perfection-perfect love-is probably unattainable in this life even with the grace of the Spirit within, we must be firmly on that path, and remain on it, and get back on it if we seriously stray. So, for example, persistence in sin so grave as to directly oppose love of God and neighbor is seen as leading back to death while lighter sins are not understood as deadly even if they tend towards that. Ultimately perfected love will totally exclude sin, as the two are mutually exclusive.

"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work." 1 John 3:7-8

When we've succeeded in replacing, with faith, our obligation to fulfill the greatest commandments we've completely mistaken the role faith is meant to play. We've gutted the gospel and rendered the entire bible and its message meaningless for that matter.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 15, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Your comment insinuate

fhansen said:
No, I never said anything like that.

Do you comprehend the meaning of 'insinuate'? I explained why I posted what I did.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Show me the biblical proof of this claim.

I have.

Please stop saying that when you haven't.

The branches have no life apart from the vine; that's WHY we're exhorted to remain in Him. John 15

Using metaphors or parables to defend doctrines FAILS. They weren't meant for that.

But that's all you have. You have NO CLEAR and straightforward verses that SAY what you claim.

Are you aware that metaphors and parables can be taken ANY WAY a person wants to take them?

What CAN'T be taken ANY WAY a person wants is a verse that is CLEAR, PLAIN language and straightforward. And you HAVEN'T quoted any such verse.

Until one begins to listen, little wisdom is gained.

Those with REAL discernment and even a little wisdom KNOW that metaphors and parables DON'T teach doctrine.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Those using metaphors or parables for their doctrines are on very shaky ground. Jesus never gave them for doctrines. They were given to further confuse those who weren't interested in truth.

Well, apparently that's worked on yourself then.

I've never used metaphors/parables to defend my beliefs. I use ONLY direct quotes from Scripture. But it seems you haven't noticed.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
This statement basically REJECTS the truth of John 3:18 and 2 Thess 2:12. Both verses teach that condemnation is for those who "have not believed".

They're condemned because they lack the authentic righteousness that only faith can provide, because only God can provide it.

Well, let's just look at these verses, since this shows that you have no idea what they say.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Since there are NO limiting time parameters associated with "have not believed", and nothing in the REST of Scripture, the phrases in red mean "have NEVER believed".

So, you're comment "so they're condemned..." is irrelevant and wrong. The Bible TELLS us plainly WHY people will be condemned. They NEVER BELIEVED.

fhansen · Oct 15, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
Do you comprehend the meaning of 'insinuate'? I explained why I posted what I did.

Sorry-must be really slow but I missed where you explained it.

FreeGrace2 said:
Please stop saying that when you haven't.

Better yet if you simply stopped denying.

FreeGrace2 said:
I've never used metaphors/parables to defend my beliefs.

No that obviously wasn't my point. You've been confused by them.

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, let's just look at these verses, since this shows that you have no idea what they say.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Since there are NO limiting time parameters associated with "have not believed", and nothing in the REST of Scripture, the phrases in red mean "have NEVER believed".

So, you're comment "so they're condemned..." is irrelevant and wrong. The Bible TELLS us plainly WHY people will be condemned. They NEVER BELIEVED.

Until you understand the purpose of believing, of faith, you won't understand the connection between faith and true personal righteousness in man.

Ceallaigh · Oct 15, 2021

FreeGrace2 said:
That is NOT freegrace theology. That's stupidity. There may be some stupid people who identify as "free grace" but that's not the belief of the majority.

In fact, most are fully aware of God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) for rebellious believers. And the Bible has many examples of God's discipline. So NO ONE "gets away" with their sin.

That's good to hear.

FreeGrace2 said:
Now you cite "some people" who make claims. Is that how you judge a theology? By what some people claim or think? Not very scholarly.

The bottom line of ANY theology is to support the claims with Scripture that says what is being claimed. The Bible has a lot to say about how to be saved. Very clearly. So that's the gold standard.

Here is how to discern the truth. IF the person believes in Christ BUT also believes that they can lose their salvation by their lifestyle, are they REALLY believing solely in Christ for salvation? That's the question that must be asked.

However, if a person does believes solely on Christ for salvation, and fully trusting in Him alone, but then afterward someone teaches them the false doctrine of losing salvation, they are still saved, but now following doctrines of demons. Satan doesn't want believers haing full assurance in their salvation. He wants them to DOUBT WHAT GOD HAS SAID. Just as he did to Eve a long time ago.

Yes it is. In fact, it really makes the person his/her own savior. Much like Satan's huge "god complex".

Correct.

That's what the well known free grace teachers I know of have said as well. That if the person doesn't get it just right, they are not saved even if they "believe in the Lord Jesus" per Acts 16:13. I've heard Dr. Hank Lindstrom go on at length about how he wasn't saved for years, even though he believed in the Lord Jesus, basically because he didn't have the free grace view of salvation.

FreeGrace2 said:
However, a question. With salvation being monergistic, how do you view the act of believing in and receiving salvation?

I lean towards the free grace view, but without the above mentioned loophole.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 15, 2021

fhansen said:
Sorry-must be really slow but I missed where you explained it.

In the post that you commented on.

Better yet if you simply stopped denying.

Applies to you.

No that obviously wasn't my point. You've been confused by them.

I know exactly what you claim, and I've been refuting it all along.

Until you understand the purpose of believing, of faith, you won't understand the connection between faith and true personal righteousness in man.

There is no such thing. That's just your imagination or confusion.

The ONLY righteousness that counts is the righteousness that God IMPUTES to those who believe in His Son. Gen 15:6

Why you think I don't understand the 'purpose of believing' is weird. This makes me think that you don't understand the purpose.

FreeGrace2 · Oct 15, 2021

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
That is NOT freegrace theology. That's stupidity. There may be some stupid people who identify as "free grace" but that's not the belief of the majority.

In fact, most are fully aware of God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) for rebellious believers. And the Bible has many examples of God's discipline. So NO ONE "gets away" with their sin.

MMXX said:
That's good to hear.

That's what the well known free grace teachers I know of have said as well. That if the person doesn't get it just right, they are not saved even if they "believe in the Lord Jesus" per Acts 16:13.

Not sure what is meant by "get it just right" followed by Acts 16:31. Paul's answer to the jailer was "just right".

I've heard Dr. Hank Lindstrom go on at length about how he wasn't saved for years, even though he believed in the Lord Jesus, basically because he didn't have the free grace view of salvation.

Don't know of him. However, if he initially believed that more was required for salvation than "just believing", then maybe he is right.

I lean towards the free grace view, but without the above mentioned loophole.

I responded in my previous post to what you see as "problems". But I guess I missed any loophole.

Could you clarify, please?

O.B.N.C.

Oldbie

Oldbie

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

Oldbie

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Oldbie

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Oldbie

Oldbie

Senior Veteran

Oldbie

May God be with you and bless you.

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Similar threads