Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

LoveGodsWord · Sep 24, 2021

Hillsage said:
I never took you as meaning 'ME'. I haven't even been around for a while.

I've posted them before. Admittedly it's been a while. But you were here then, just as now.

Don't miss dropping down to #11.... Jerome's quote. He's the reason for my signature quote at the bottom of the page.

Early Church Leaders Testify

Irenaeus: (130 to about 200 A.D.) ―Bishop of Lyons. His nearness to the apostles makes his testimony most interesting. Irenaeus did not believe evil would last forever. In his treatise Against Heretics, he wrote in

Book III, chap. 23, §6:‖1

Wherefore also He drove him (Adam) out of Paradise, and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare to assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not continue always a sinner, and that the sin which surrounded him should not be immortal, and the evil interminable and irremediable.—Irenaeus.2

Theophilus, (160-181 A.D.) ―Bishop of Antioch.‖ 3

And God showed great kindness to man in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but, as it were by a kind of banishment, cast him out of Paradise, in order that, having by punishment expiated within an appointed time the sin, and having been disciplined, he should afterward be recalled.—Theophilus. To Autolycus, Book 2, chap. 26.4

Clement of Alexandria, (190 A.D.) ―Head of the catechetical school there. He speaks of having learned from a disciple of the Apostles.— Strom. lib. ii. His wide and various learning, and his sympathetic spirit combine to give special weight to his teaching.‖5

All men are Christ‘s, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet. He is the Savior, not of some (only) and of the rest not (i.e., He is actually Savior of all) for how is He Lord and Savior if He is not Lord and Savior of all? But He is indeed Savior of those who believe…while of those who do not believe He is Lord, until having become able to confess Him, they obtain through Him the benefit appropriate and suitable (to their case). He by the Father‘s will directs the salvation of all for all things have been ordered, both universally and in part, by the Lord of the universe; with a view to the salvation of the universe.…But needful correction, by the goodness of the great overseeing Judge,

through (by means of) the attendant angels, through various prior judgments, through the final (pantelous) judgment, compels even those who have become still more callous to repent.—Clement. Strom. lib. vii. pp. 702-6, Cologne, 1688.6

Origen, (185-254 A.D.) ―Pupil and successor of Clement of Alexandria, founded a school at Caesarea…the greatest theologian and exegete of the Eastern Church.‖7

But he that despises the purification of the word of God and the doctrine of the Gospel only keeps himself for dreadful and penal purifications afterward; that so the fire of hell may purge him in torments whom neither apostolical doctrine nor gospel preaching has cleansed, according to that which is written of being ―purified by fire.‖ But how long this purification which is wrought out by penal fire shall endure, or for how many periods or ages it shall torment sinners, He only knows to whom all judgment is committed by the Father.—Origen. Commentary on Rom., Book 8, Chap. 11.8

Eusebius of Caesarea, (265-340 A.D.) ―Bishop of Caesarea in Palestine; friend of Constantine; the greatest of the early Church historians, wrote on Ps. 2:‖9 ―The Son‘s ‗breaking in pieces‘ His enemies is for the sake of remolding them, as a potter his own work; as Jer. xviii. 6, says:

i.e., to restore them once more to their former state.‖–Eusebius. De eccles. theol. iii. 16.10

Athanasius, (296-373 A.D.) ―Called ‗the Great,‘ ‗Father of Orthodoxy,‘ ‗Pillar of Orthodoxy;‘ Bishop of Alexandria and writer of many works; especially noted for defending the deity of our Lord.‖11 ―While the devil thought to kill one he is deprived of all cast out of Hades, and sitting by the gates, sees all the fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Savior.‖—

Athanasius. De pass. et cruce Darn.12

Gregory Nazianzen, (330-390 A.D.) ―President of the second great Ecumenical Council, was considered the most learned bishop in one of the most learned ages of the Church.‖13

―Until He loosed by His blood all who groan under Tartarean chains.‖—Carm. xxxv. (ed. Lyons, 1840.) ―Today salvation has been brought to the universe to whatsoever is visible and whatsoever is invisible…(today) the gates of Hades are thrown open.‖—Or. xlii. ―Adam receives death as a gain, and (thereby) the cutting off of sin; that evil should not be immortal: and so the vengeance turns out a kindness, for thus I am of opinion it is that God punishes.‖— Nazianzen. Orat. xlii.14

Ambrose, (340-397 A.D.) ―Bishop of Milan; converted Augustine by his preaching; the Father of Latin hymnology; reproduced many of the writings of the Greek Fathers.‖15

The mystery of the Incarnation is the salvation of the entire creation…as it is elsewhere said, ―the whole creation shall be set free from the bondage of corruption‖.…So the Son of Man came to save that which was lost, i.e., all, for as in Adam all die, so, too, in Christ shall all be made alive. The subjection of Christ consists not in few, but in all (becoming obedient)…Christ will be subject to God in us by means of the obedience of all…(then) when vices having been cast away, and sin reduced to submission, one spirit of all people, in one sentiment, shall with one accord begin to cleave to God, then God will be All in All.—Ambrose. De

fide lib. v. 7.16

Didymus, (380 A.D.) ―The last distinguished head of the school of Alexandria, Didymus, surpassed all of his day in knowledge of the Scriptures.‖ says S. Jerome. He argues, ―divine correction (even vengeance), and promise, have the same object in view.‖—Adv. Man. ch. xviii.17 Also ―God ‗destroys liars, so far as they are liars.‘—In Ps. v. 6. [Christ] ‗descends to

Hades and brings back the souls, there detained on account of their sins.‘‖—

Didymus. In Ps. lxxi. 20. See, too, De Trin. lib. iii 21, &c.18

Gregory of Nyssa, (332-398 A.D.) ―A leading theologian of the Eastern Church and one of the most prominent figures in the second great

Church Council which practically established the orthodoxy of the Nicene

Creed.‖19

The Divine judgment does not as its chief object cause pain to those who have sinned, but works good alone by separating from evil, and drawing to a share in blessedness. But this severance of good from evil causes the pain (of the judgment). In other words, the penalty is the cure; it is merely the unavoidable pain attending the removal of the intruding element of sin.—Gregory. Dialogue of the Soul and Resurrection.20

Jerome, (340-420 A.D.) ―Devoted to Scripture study; revised the old Latin translations and translated the Old Testament from Hebrew into Latin of the New Testament. Allin stated he found nearly 100 passages in his works indicating Jerome sympathized with the ‗larger hope.‘‖21 ―When the Psalmist says, ‗Your enemies, O God, shall perish,‘…every man who has been Your enemy shall hereafter be made Your friend; the man shall not perish, the enemy shall perish.‖—Jerome. In Ps. xcii. 9.22

Hillary, (354 A.D.) ―Hillary, Bishop of Poictiers, is considered one of the champions of orthodoxy.‖23 ―The whole human race, who are one, are the one lost sheep, which is destined to be found by the Good Shepherd.‖—

Hillary.24

Titus, (364 A.D.) ―Bishop of Bostra. Caillou, describes as ‗the most learned among the learned bishops of his age, and a most famous champion of the truth.‘ S. Jerome reckons him as one of those, in whom you are at a loss whether to admire most, their learning or their knowledge of Holy

Scripture.‖25

The very pit itself is a place of torments and of chastisement, but is not eternal. It was made that it might be a medicine and help to those who sin. Sacred are the stripes which are medicine to those who have sinned. ―Therefore we do not complain of the pits (of hell)—abyssis—but rather know that they are places of torment, and chastisement, being for the correction (amendment of those who have sinned.‖—Titus Adv. Man. lib. i. 32.26

Diodorus, (378 A.D.) ―Bishop of Tarsus…noted for untiring zeal in defense of the Nicene Faith.‖27 ―For the wicked there are punishments not perpetual…according to the amount of malice in their works.…The Resurrection, therefore, is regarded as a blessing not only to the good but also to the evil.‖—Diodorus. ASSEM. Bibl. Or. iii. p. 324.28

Theodore of Mopsuestia, (407 A.D.) ―The crown and climax of the school of Antioch…called the ‗Master of the East‘ from his theological eminence.‖ Dorner. ( Pers. of Christ, i. 50).29

―Who is so great a fool as to think, that so great a blessing can be to those that arise, the occasion of endless torment?‖—Frag. Ex. lib. cont. pecc. orig. ―All have the hope of rising with Christ, so that the body having obtained immortality, thenceforward the proclivity to evil should be removed.‖ [God] ―recapitulated all things in Christ…as though making a compendious renewal, and restoration of the whole creation, through Him.…Now this will take place in a future age, when all mankind and all powers (virtues) possessed of reason, look up to Him, as is right, and obtain mutual concord and firm peace.‖—Theodore. In Eph. i.

10.30

Cyril of Alexandria, (412 A.D.) ―He (Cyril) describes Christ as having spoiled Hades, and ‗left the devil there solitary and deserted.‘—Hom. Pasch. vii. And again, ‗Christ, wandering down even to Hades, has emptied the dark, hidden, unseen treasuries.‘‖—Glaphy in Gen. lib ii.31 ―For when death devoured Him who was the Lamb on behalf of all, it vomited forth all men in Him and with Him.…Now when sin has been destroyed, how should it be but that death, too, should wholly perish?‖—Cyril. In S. Jno. i. 29.32

Maximus of Turin, (422 A.D.) ―Christ carried off to heaven man whose cause He undertook, snatched from the jaws of Hades mankind.‖—

Maximus. In Pent. Horn. ii.33

Theodoret, (423 A.D.) ―Bishop of Cyrus…perhaps the most famous, and certainly the most learned teacher of his age; uniting to a noble intellect a character and accomplishments equally noble.‖34 ―After His anger, God will bring to an end His judgment; for He will not be angry unto the end, nor keep His wrath to eternity.‖—Theodoret. In Is. xiii.35 ―He shews here the reason for punishment, for the Lord, the lover of men, torments us only to cure us, that He may put a stop to the course of our iniquity.‖—Theodoret.

Hom in Ezech. cap. Vi. vers 6.36

Peter Chrysologus, (433 A.D.) ―Bishop of Ravenna.‖37 On the parable of the hundred sheep he said, ―That the one lost sheep represents ‗the whole human race lost in Adam,‘ and so the Good Shepherd ‗follows the one, seeks the one, in order that in the one He may find all, in the one He may restore all.‘‖—Chrysologus. Ser. clxviii.38

Appendage by D. Scott Reichard 39

The Apostles and Nicene Creeds and first four General Councils had not one word of condemnation against the Blessed Hope even though it was widely prevalent.

Chrysostom 400 A.D. — Trained in the school of Antioch and pupil of Diodorus of Tarsus. He sanctioned prayers for the dead and non-repentant. ―It was needful that God reconcile them perfectly so that they should never again become His enemies.‖ ―If punishment were an evil to those who sin, God never would have added evils to evils.‖ ―God kindly inflicts vengeance.‖ Gen. iii. Hom. xviii.

Domitian of Galatia — Bishop of Ancyra. In the book he wrote to Vigilius says, ―they have hastily run out to anathematize most holy and glorious teachers on account of those doctrines which have been advanced concerning restitution.‖

Epistle to Diognetus Approx.150 A.D. — Describes the ―eternal fire‖ as chastening not ―without end‖ but up to an end.‖-- Mechri telous. ch.x.

F. M. Victorinus 360 A.D. — Rhetorician at Rome. ―He is Jesus Christ because He will save all things unto life.‖--ib. iii. 8.

Gregory of Nazianzen 325-390 A.D. — Bishop of Constantinople says, ―they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism which consumes all vanity and vice." Orat. xxxix, 19- n.

Gregory Thaumaturgus 254 A.D. — Bishop of Caesarea. Was distinguished for orthodoxy and numerous alleged miracles. Converted nearly the whole pop. to Christianity. Taught Restoration boldly. Rufinus, Invec.in Hier. Lib.i. prope fin.

Irenaeus 180 A.D. — ―Christ will come at the end of the times in order to annul everything evil, and to reconcile again all things, that there may be an end of all impurities.‖ Frag. iv.

Jerome 340-420 A.D. says: — "Fire is God's last medicine for the ten tribes, and for heretics, and for all sin sinners…when the divine fire shall have burned up all that is vilest in them, they themselves shall be delivered as a brand snatched from the burning." - In Amos iv. ii. 22

Macrina 375 A.D. — On her death bed, she cheers her brother Basil by boldly assuring him of the extent of Christ‘s redemption---as destined to embrace savingly all humanity, destined to blot from the universe every stain of sin. The purificatory nature of the fire of Hell is unmistakably set forth. Dict. of Christ. Biog. iii. P. 780.

Marcellus of Ancyra 315 A.D. — ―For what else do the words mean, ―until the times of restitution but that the Apostle designed to point out that time, in which all things partake of that perfect restoration.‖ Cont. Mar. ii. 4.

Pamphilus, the martyr 294 A.D. — Founded library and school at Caesarea. Wrote in his Apology for Origen with Eusebius there were very many testimonies of Fathers earlier than Origen, in favor of Restoration---Routh, Rel. sac. iii. P. 498.

Paulinus 393 A.D. — Bishop of Nola. ― A common disobedience shut up all, in order that faith might heal the whole; so that all the world may be made God‘s servant.‖---Carm. Ad Cyth. p. 494, ed. Antwerp, 1622.

Rufinus 390 A.D. — Taught that future punishment of the wicked was temporary. Huet, Orig. ii. p. 160

Sibylline books 2nd, 3rd centuries — They clearly state the beliefs current in those days. ―All things, even Hades are to be melted down in the divine fire in order to be purified. All just and unjust pass through the fire. The lost are finally to be saved at the request of the righteous.‖ Lib. ii., vv. 195-340. ―The Sibyl asserts that the pains of the damned are to be terminated.‖ Fabric., Bibl. Grec. I. p. 203.

Theodore the Blessed 423 A.D. — Bishop of Cyrus. Most famous and learned teacher of his age. ―All the Kings of the earth shall adore Him. Some indeed in the present life willingly, but all the rest after Resurrection.‖ In Ps. Lxxx.

18. ―After His anger, God will bring to an end, nor keep His wrath to eternity.‖ In

Is. xiii.

Sources of people outside of Gods' Word are not God's Word.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 24, 2021

Andrewn said:
This is like the pot calling the kettle black . You teach many heresies: Saturday worship, soul sleep, soul annihilation, and a certain version of Millennialism, among many others. You teach these heresies as facts.

Another one with claims and accusations of heresy that is unsupported by scripture. If you see your brother in error do you not have a duty of Christian love to correct such a one and to show Him His error from the scriptures? Yet all you have provided in your post is claims and accusations unsupported by the scriptures therefore your words are not true. According to the scriptures it is the many that are called but only the few that are chosen *Matthew 22:14 for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leads unto life, and few are they that find it. *Matthew 7:13-14.

In the days of Jesus His teachings were generally considered by the religious teachers of the day as being unorthodox heresy with Jesus being accused of being of the devil and his followers a cult. *John 10:20-25; Acts of the Apostles 28:22. Their response to the teachings of Jesus and their claims of heresy was that "if we leave Him alone all men will believe on Him. Therefore, it is expedient that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not." - John 11:47-50. This religious philosophy however was nothing new and Jesus and the Apostles knew this when they said to these religious teachers in their day; "Woe unto you! for ye build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them." - Luke 11:47 and again, "Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers." - Acts of the Apostles 7:52. This was the orthodoxy in the days of the prophets, Jesus and the Apostles. Yet you want to appeal to orthodoxy and their claims of heresy unsupported by the scriptures which have persecuted Gods' saints all through time to this present day?

What has changed today? According to the scriptures, All that live godly in Christ according to the scriptures we are told will suffer persecution *2 Timothy 3:12. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his Lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? *Matthew 10:25. There is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known *Luke 12:2. I must speak in the light and what I hear preach in the housetops *Luke 12:3. Many will not hear because they do not know Him. He is the Word of God and those that believe him are those that he has chosen. They follow him because they love him and are loved by him.

Take Care.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 24, 2021

Jipsah said:
Rhetorical Scenery Chewing, 10 yard penalty and loss of down. Christian Universalism assumes that our Lord's Sacrifice actually saves everyone, that His Grace actually is irresistable, and that God's Will is going to be done , and nothing anyone can do has any power to stop it.

We know that "God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Scripture says that God's Will is that all be saved. Your lot says it ain't gonna happen. "Poor God, nothing He can do."

Scripture says that our Lord Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all. You believe that it just didn't do a lot of folks any good, and that they're damned anyway. "Poor Jesus, He died for all but only saved some.

A fig for your doctrine.

The problem is that Universalism is a false teaching that is not biblical because the scriptures teach no where that the wicked will be saved anywhere in the bible who do not believe and follow God's Word. In fact the scriptures teach that the wicked will be destroyed not saved because they choose to reject the gift of Gods' dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of Gods grace *Hebrews 10:26-31.

The teaching of Universalism has its origin from the serpent in the Garden of Eden from Genesis 3:1-5. These scriptures teach that the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, Yes, has God said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden? The woman said to the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, You shall not eat of it, neither shall you touch it, lest you die. And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die: For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

God gave Adam and Eve a test by giving them a commandment not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil with a warning that in the day you eat thereof you shall surely die. The devil says No! You can break Gods' commandment and not surely die God is only holding back knowledge from you and you will be just like God.

This is the teaching of Universalism. The bible teaches that the wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of Gods grace *Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-31. Universalism teaches no you can live a life of wickedness and sin and break God's commandments not not believe and follow God's Word and get a second chance by being tortured in the lake of fire until you repent of your sins.

The teachings of Universalism make a mockery of the Cross and the sacrifice of Gods dear son in sending Jesus to die for the sins of the world. How so?

God is a God of love and mercy but he is also a God of justice and judgement (plenty of scripture here just let me know) and this is the reason why he sent Jesus to die on the cross for our sins and is where we see God's great love for us both personally and collectively. If God was not a God of judgement and Justice Jesus would not have had to come to pay man's penalty for sin so that we can receive Gods' Gift of eternal life and reconciliation. I see God's love in all of this, even in his justice don't you? If there was no justice and judgement for sin Jesus would not have had to die for our sins. God is a God of love and mercy to all those who hear and believe His Words and follow him and a God of justice and judgement to those who do not. There is no second chances at the second coming dear friend only love and mercy to those who believe and follow Gods' Word and justice and judgement to those who do not believe and do not follow Gods' Word. Only those who are written in the lambs book of life receive Love and Mercy according to the scriptures (John 3:36).

A fig for your doctrine.

Take Care.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 24, 2021

Jipsah said:
Really? What about sin, did that cease to exist?
Your lot believe that Christ's sacrifice wasn't enough to save everyone. I say it was.

So ultimately everyone will believe. "Every knee shall bow", right?

And they will, with shouts of thanksgiving.

But alas, those qualities are limited by what corrupt humans allow Him to do. Nonsense!

More thousands than you'd admit if God wasn't compelled to observe the restrictions your doctrine tries to place on Him. Fortunately, He isn't.

Denominational doctrine, summarily rejected.

And if you stopped right there you'd have the rights of it, but that wouldn't conform to your sectarian beliefs. Here you go...

Thereby taking the power away from God and giving it to corrupt human beings. Nonsense!

Hogwash, however oft repeated. God's Will will be done, and no one, human or devil, can prevent it. Christ's sacrifice will save all, no matter how much contrived doctrines of men, designed to make it seem as though we have power to thwart God's Will or Christ's Sacrifice, deny it. The "God can't..." idea is straight from the pit.

"Poor God, He did so want to save everyone, but the beings He created stopped Him. Nothing He could do, even giving His life on the Cross wasn't sufficient to save them all." Nonsense!

And there's one that comes from Man's desire to be in control, and to Save Himself. It's the belief that "God Cannot", that He can only do what we allow Him to do. God wants to save everyone, but We Stop Him. Christ's sacrifice saved everyone, but We Refuse It. We have the power, we can thwart God's will, we're in charge. If there has ever been a diaboliocal doctrine, that has to be near the top of the list.

Yep really! According to the scriptures Gods' salvation is conditional in believing and following what Gods Word says. If we do not believe and follow what Gods' Word says we have no salvation according to the scriptures. So lets show why from the scriptures and not speak our own words that are not God's Word....

IS OUR SALVATION CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD?

“IF” SHOWS SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL ON BOTH BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING (FRUIT) GOD'S WORD

OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)

“IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...

GENESIS 4:7 “IF” (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

Consequences for not believing and following...

GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and “IF” (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and “IF” (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

Blessings for believing and following...

EXODUS 15:26 And said, “IF” (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], “IF” (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But “IF” (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And “IF” (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And “IF” (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

There are too many more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

..............

NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)

“IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

God's forgiveness is conditional...

1 JOHN 1:9 [9], “IF” (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For “IF” (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But “IF” (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, “IF” (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Conditions for inheriting eternal life...

MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but “IF” (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: “IF” (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for “IF” (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, “IF” (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, “IF” you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, “IF” (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

God only hears those who are following His Word...

JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but “IF” (conditional) any man be a worshiper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

JOHN 14:15 “IF” (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

JOHN 15:10 “IF” (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, “IF” (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “IF” (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

JOHN 15:6-7 [6], “IF” (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], “IF” (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

Ok once again too many to list here. This is only the short version. We should be careful therefore and believe what the scriptures teach which very simply in the very words of Jesus is that salvation is conditional in believing and following what Gods' Word says...

JOHN 3:36 [36], He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him.

Take Care.

Hmm · Sep 24, 2021

Clare73 said:
You will find no born again who finds it appropriate to challenge God's ways based on human suppositions and thinking, and which is not the same as questioning and submissively seeking understanding of them from him in his word, and other mature born again.

I agree but I think you need to differentiate between challenging God as He showed Himself to be in Jesus and rejecting tired views of Him that are ways past their expiry date of Him as a tireless torturer. They are hardly the same thing!

Clare73 said:
So when is "now" and when is "then"?

Now is this life and then is not life after death but "life after life after death" to borrow a phrase from NT Wright, when we are fully restored to God and the new heaven and new earth has come. In the meantime, all our apprehensions of the truth of God is inspired but provisional.

Clare73 said:
And the pronoun would be "his," for the Holy Spirit is a "he."

Okay thanks. I always have the same problem when someone shoves a baby in my face. I can never tell if it's make or female and I don't like to say "Ah, it's lovely" so my way out is to say "What a lovely angel", angels being non-binary!

Hmm · Sep 24, 2021

Der Alte said:
Salt does NOT refine!

I'm going to take that with a pinch of salt.

Hillsage · Sep 24, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Your post makes no sense to what you are quoting from and your quoting different scripture not relevant to the context of 1 Corinthians 15:22.

If your CONTEXT is precluded by your PRETEXT, then your CONTEXT is simply irrelevant. Hence, my red signature line below.

1CO 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

We who are saved this side of glory are "first fruits" who were given the faith to believe, by God's gift to us when it was 'His will' and our time. For those whose time is not 'this side of glory' they will bow their knee when they get their FIRST CHANCE to hear the spoken RHEMA of God which produces the faith they need TO BELIEVE and say YES to the meritorious 'atoning/propitiation' work of Christ for ALL.

ROM 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word/RHEMA of God.

ISA 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

If you think you saying YES was due to 'your will' than you will miss God getting the glory you claim for yourself. For 'God is at work in you TO WILL and to DO work for His good pleasure.'

1JO 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Perhaps next time it might be best to read what your responding to before posting. "In Christ" in context to 1 Corinthians 15:22 from post # 271 linked is to those who have accepted Christ (believers) not those who have not accepted Christ (unbelievers and the wicked).

Take Care

Oh believe me I d read. And if I talk over your head with my responses, just maybe it is you who should ask for clarification as to where I'm coming from....just saying. :idea:

I'm 73 and as a believer for 49 years I've mentored many in my life. Preferably, those with leadership positions or future callings...IOW capable 'thinkers'. At one time I had mentored 3 of the 5 standing elders our church (of a 1,000). One of them had only been a believer for 5 years before being chosen to be an elder. But he was my brother who didn't even become a believer until he was 35. He spent a lot of one on one time, and he grew exponentially.

Many of them were as confused as you concerning me when first meeting. And many, like here, never get it. It was always a blessing, when they finally had ears to hear and eyes to see a thing that they were so indoctrinated in (religious and demonic). Most simply never believe anything differently than that which 'the law of first impressions' has branded into their souls. I have seen lots of them here.

Let's do one Question; What's the difference between "you in Christ" and "Christ in you"... in your opinion?

Hmm · Sep 24, 2021

Hillsage said:
Many of them were as confused as you concerning me when first meeting. And many, like here, never get it. It was always a blessing, when they finally had ears to hear and eyes to see a thing that they were so indoctrinated in (religious and demonic). Most simply never believe anything differently than that which 'the law of first impressions' has branded into their souls. I have seen lots of them here.

Spot on!

LoveGodsWord · Sep 24, 2021

Hillsage said:
If your CONTEXT is precluded by your PRETEXT, then your CONTEXT is simply irrelevant. Hence, my red signature line below. 1CO 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. We who are saved this side of glory are "first fruits" who were given the faith to believe, by God's gift to us when it was 'His will' and our time. For those whose time is not 'this side of glory' they will bow their knee when they get their FIRST CHANCE to hear the spoken RHEMA of God which produces the faith they need TO BELIEVE and say YES to the meritorious 'atoning/propitiation' work of Christ for ALL.

Not really dear friend but allow me to show why from the scriptures. 1 Corinthians 15:22 which says [22], For as in Adam all die, even so "in Christ" shall all be made alive. That is all who are "in Christ" will be made alive. Other supporting scriptures were also provided earlier in post # 271 linked that proves that the key context here is to those who are "in Christ" being a reference to those who are believers not unbelievers. In Corinthians 15:23 it continues [23] But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. This scripture is simply stating that Jesus is represents the first fruits of the resurrection of those who died which is the fulfillment of the Feast of first fruits of the old covenant Feasts of Passover and first fruits (Leviticus 23:5-11). "At His coming" is when the resurrection of those who died in Christ takes place according to the scriptures *1 Corinthians 15:50-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18. The rest of your commentary is trying to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do no say and do not teach (eisegesis).

Hillsage said:
ROM 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word/RHEMA of God. ISA 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. If you think you saying YES was due to 'your will' than you will miss God getting the glory you claim for yourself. For 'God is at work in you TO WILL and to DO work for His good pleasure.'

Your point here is what? You did not make one and there is nothing that you have provided here that supports the false teachings of Universalism.

Hillsage said:
1JO 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus is indeed Gods 'sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. Jesus has made provision that every person that chooses to accept Gods' invitation of Grace that we receive though faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) can be saved. The scripture however does not say anywhere that all men will choose to accept the gift of Gods' dear son and Christs sacrifice for our sins *Romans 6:23. 1 John 2:2 therefore is only saying that God has made provision for the whole world to be saved through Christ sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. According to the scriptures it is those who believe and follow Gods' Word that are the saved *John 3:36 while those who do not believe according to the scriptures are destroyed at the second coming (scriptures already provided here linked)

Hillsage said:
Oh believe me I d read. And if I talk over your head with my responses, just maybe it is you who should ask for clarification as to where I'm coming from....just saying. I'm 73 and as a believer for 49 years I've mentored many in my life. Preferably, those with leadership positions or future callings...IOW capable 'thinkers'. At one time I had mentored 3 of the 5 standing elders our church (of a 1,000). One of them had only been a believer for 5 years before being chosen to be an elder. But he was my brother who didn't even become a believer until he was 35. He spent a lot of one on one time, and he grew exponentially. Many of them were as confused as you concerning me when first meeting. And many, like here, never get it. It was always a blessing, when they finally had ears to hear and eyes to see a thing that they were so indoctrinated in (religious and demonic). Most simply never believe anything differently than that which 'the law of first impressions' has branded into their souls. I have seen lots of them here.

And how do these comments support your teachings? They do not. These are simply your words not Gods' Word that disagree with your teachings. Perhaps it is time for you to be opened to receiving some help from others.

Hillsage said:
Let's do one Question; What's the difference between "you in Christ" and "Christ in you"... in your opinion?

They are not separate. According to the scripture Christ abides in us and we in Him as we believe and follow His Word...

John 15:4-8 [4], Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me. [5], I am the vine, you are the branches: He that stays in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. [6], If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you. [8], Herein is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; so shall you be my disciples.

Take Care.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 24, 2021

Hmm said:
Spot on!

How is it spot on? It ignores scripture contexts. In every scripture that was provided context was to believers not unbelievers who according to the scriptures are destroyed at the second coming. According to the scriptures God's salvation is conditional to believing and following what Gods' Word says not unconditional to not believing and not following what God's Word says *John 3:36 (more scripture here linked).

Take Care.

Der Alte · Sep 24, 2021

Hmm said:
I'm going to take that with a pinch of salt.

I take that to mean you will ignore the scripture I posted which says the salt is put on the acceptable offerings before they are offered. The salt does not make that which is unacceptable to God, acceptable. IOW If it ain't kosher salt does not make it kosher.

Clare73 · Sep 24, 2021

Der Alte said:
Salt does NOT refine! Heterodox groups often quote Mk 9:49 out-of-context as an "everyone will be saved" verse. Mark 9:42-49

42 "If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.
47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
48 where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.
Note vs. 42 speaks about a punishment worse than death not salvation.
Salt does not make the offering acceptable it must be clean before it is salted.

Ezekiel 43:23-24
23 When you have finished purifying it, you are to offer a young bull and a ram from the flock, both without defect.
24 You are to offer them before the LORD, and the priests are to sprinkle salt on them and sacrifice them as a burnt offering to the LORD.

Leviticus 2:13
13 Season all your grain offerings with salt. Do not leave the salt of the covenant of your God out of your grain offerings; add salt to all your offerings.

1) It may be a type/pattern of faithfulness where, as salt makes food pleasing and acceptable, so the LORD's sacrifices were to be made pleasing and acceptable (by faithfulness).

2) It may be salt is like grace:
salt penetrates -- grace penetrates, to the level of our heart and motives, changing them
salt retards corruption -- grace transforms our corruption
salt aids healing -- grace heals our sin (1 Peter 2:24; see 2 Kings 2:20-22)
salt makes things tasty and acceptable -- we are unacceptable to God without his grace

3) Salt as grace in the NT:
Colossians 4:6 - "Let your conversation be always full of grace (no corruption), seasoned with salt (which retards corruption)."

Matthew 5:23 - "You are the salt of the earth (and the decaying earth needs salt).
But if salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again?
It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled on by men."

[If the professing church (salt) loses its saltiness (holiness), it will no longer be good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled on by the world.]

Mark 9:50 - ". . .Have salt in yourselves and be at peace with each other."
Grace regards our corruptions (the source of our conflicts--James 4:1) and makes us peaceable.

Mark 9:49 - "Everyone will be salted with fire."

Clare73 · Sep 24, 2021

Hmm said:
I agree but I think you need to differentiate between challenging God as He showed Himself to be in Jesus and rejecting tired views of Him that are ways past their expiry date of Him as a tireless torturer. They are hardly the same thing!

Red herring. . .

Searched the old Concordance. . .could not find "tireless torturer."

Now is this life and then is not life after death but "life after life after death" to borrow a phrase from NT Wright, when we are fully restored to God and the new heaven and new earth has come. In the meantime, all our apprehensions of the truth of God is inspired but provisional.

Okay thanks. I always have the same problem when someone shoves a baby in my face. I can never tell if it's make or female and I don't like to say "Ah, it's lovely" so my way out is to say "What a lovely angel", angels being non-binary!

Ceallaigh · Sep 24, 2021

Clare73 said:
The only reason anyone rejects Christianity is because they are not born of the Holy Spirit (John 3:3; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8).

So do I. . .assigning a name is to make clear the beggar was not a Gentile, but one of them, for the parable is about the Jews refusing to listen to Moses and the Prophets regarding Jesus, and that even his resurrection from the dead would not change their minds, as it did not... they continued to persecute and kill Christians, as in Paul.

Lazarus is Greek for Eliezer. Eliezer of Damascus was set to inherit everything Abraham owned while childless. Just something to chew on.

Hillsage · Sep 24, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Not really dear friend but allow me to show why from the scriptures. 1 Corinthians 15:22 which says [22], For as in Adam all die, even so "in Christ" shall all be made alive. That is all who are "in Christ" will be made alive. Other supporting scriptures were also provided earlier in post # 271 linked that proves that the key context here is to those who are "in Christ" being a reference to those who are believers not unbelievers. In Corinthians 15:23 it continues [23] But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. This scripture is simply stating that Jesus is represents the first fruits of the resurrection of those who died which is the fulfillment of the Feast of first fruits of the old covenant Feasts of Passover and first fruits (Leviticus 23:5-11). "At His coming" is when the resurrection of those who died in Christ takes place according to the scriptures *1 Corinthians 15:50-55; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18. The rest of your commentary is trying to read into the scriptures what the scriptures do no say and do not teach (eisegesis).

Your point here is what? You did not make one and there is nothing that you have provided here that supports the false teachings of Universalism.

I "made a point", you just never caught it. Let me reiterate from post 295 what you never 'got' in capital BOLD and underlined.

EPH 3:9 And to MAKE all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

FYI Jesus never even knew "the day or the hour", let alone ALL who were "HID IN GOD from the beginning of the world". Especially since God in heaven was now minus "the WORD made flesh." And when 'the spirit WORD of God became flesh', He didn't just 'give up spirit/Word equality with God as a thing to be grasped' (by most). The Word's body came as the "sinful flesh" body of (triune man) Jesus. Jesus had a body just like we inherited from Adam.

ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful FLESH and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,

"Those still "hid in God" from the ages before the cross to the 'ages after the cross'
WILL be reconciled to God, even as God has ALREADY reconciled Himself to them, by the cross. God doesn't have a sin problem with anyone ETERNALLY. Jesus paid that ETERNAL price for all. It is simply a question as to when 'YOUR TURN, TO TURN' will come. Some bow the knee here, most don't. But this is a fact; "EVERY knee SHALL BOW and every tongue SHALL CONFESS to the glory of God." and not to His shame for letting Satan win almost ALL. How stupid is omniscience, if such a thing ever happened? "

Let me answer my question you ignored. MY GOD'S OMNISCIENCE was not STUPID enough to come up with a plan that allows Satan to win most hands down.

MY God's price for sin was paid for ALL, 2,000 years ago. DEBT paid LGW!!!! So what's the purpose of an eternal punishING Auschwitz. Especially one infinitely worse than even Hitler conceived on earth?

I'm just going to quit now, your long posts take a bit too long to answer. shorten them or I'm not interested. I'm already tiring of being back this short time.

LoveGodsWord · Sep 25, 2021

Hillsage said:
I "made a point", you just never caught it. Let me reiterate from post 295 what you never 'got' in capital BOLD and underlined.

No, you did not make a point and I understood exactly what you posted which was not supported in the scriptures you provided there. The only scriptures you posted in your last post to me was 1 Corinthians 15:22-23; Romans 10:17; Isaiah 55:11 and 1 John 2:2 which where responded to with a detailed scripture response looking at the context of these scriptures that you left out showing from the scriptures that they were not supporting what you were claiming they were saying in post # 409 linked.

In this post you were shown that the that the scripture context of 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 is to believers in Christ not unbelievers outside of Christ with the first fruits representing Christ resurrection from the dead in fulfillment of the Passover and the Feast of First fruits. You made no point in regards to Romans 10:17 which was the scripture I was asking about and nothing you posted there supports a view of Universalism.

While you were shown that 1 John 2:2 is in context to a message to believers saying that Jesus is indeed Gods 'sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. Jesus has made provision that every person that chooses to accept Gods' invitation of Grace that we receive though faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) can be saved. The scripture however does not say anywhere that all men will choose to accept the gift of Gods' dear son and Christs sacrifice for our sins *Romans 6:23. 1 John 2:2 therefore is only saying that God has made provision for the whole world to be saved through Christ sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.

According to the scriptures it is those who believe and follow Gods' Word that are the saved *John 3:36 while those who do not believe according to the scriptures are destroyed at the second coming (scriptures already provided here linked). Then to complete the post your question was answered showing that Christ in us and we in him is not separate from each other by quoting John 15:4-8. Now in this current post your moving away from the scriptures we just discussed to talk about totally different scriptures that were not relevant to our earlier discussion?. I do not mind. Lets talk about your new scriptures and see if they support the false teachings of Universalism?

Hillsage said:
EPH 3:9 And to MAKE all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD, who created all things by Jesus Christ: FYI Jesus never even knew "the day or the hour", let alone ALL who were "HID IN GOD from the beginning of the world". Especially since God in heaven was now minus "the WORD made flesh." And when 'the spirit WORD of God became flesh', He didn't just 'give up spirit/Word equality with God as a thing to be grasped' (by most). The Word's body came as the "sinful flesh" body of (triune man) Jesus. Jesus had a body just like we inherited from Adam

Here let's add all the context back in so we can make sure we understand the subject matter.

Ephesians 3:1-21
[1], For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
[2], IF YOU HAVE HEARD OF THE DISPENSATION OF THE GRACE OF GOD WHICH IS GIVEN ME TO YOU-WARD:
[3], HOW THAT BY REVELATION HE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE MYSTERY; AS I WROTE BEFORE IN FEW WORDS,
[4], WHEREBY, WHEN YOU READ, YOU MAY UNDERSTAND MY KNOWLEDGE IN THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST
[5], WHICH IN OTHER AGES WAS NOT MADE KNOWN TO THE SONS OF MEN, AS IT IS NOW REVEALED TO HIS HOLY APOSTLES AND PROPHETS BY THE SPIRIT;
[6], THAT THE GENTILES SHOULD BE FELLOW HEIRS, AND OF THE SAME BODY, AND PARTAKERS OF HIS PROMISE IN CHRIST BY THE GOSPEL:
[7], Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effectual working of his power.
[8], TO ME, WHO AM LESS THAN THE LEAST OF ALL SAINTS, IS THIS GRACE GIVEN, THAT I SHOULD PREACH AMONG THE GENTILES THE UNSEARCHABLE RICHES OF CHRIST;
[9], And TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE WHAT IS THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE MYSTERY, WHICH FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD HAS BEEN HID IN GOD, WHO CREATED ALL THINGS BY JESUS CHRIST:
[10], TO THE INTENT THAT NOW TO THE PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS IN HEAVENLY PLACES MIGHT BE KNOWN BY THE CHURCH THE MANIFOLD WISDOM OF GOD,
[11], According to the eternal purpose which he purposed “IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD”
[12], IN WHOM WE HAVE BOLDNESS AND ACCESS WITH CONFIDENCE BY THE FAITH OF HIM.
[13], Why I desire that you faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
[14], For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[15], Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
[16], That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
[17], THAT CHRIST MAY DWELL IN YOUR HEARTS BY FAITH; THAT YOU, BEING ROOTED AND GROUNDED IN LOVE,
[18], MAY BE ABLE TO COMPREHEND WITH ALL SAINTS what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
[19], And to know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that you might be filled with all the fullness of God.
[20], Now to him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us,
[21], To him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

..................

As shown with the context and subject matter added back in we can see that the application of Ephesians 3:9 is to gentile believers, (v6) Church (v10) and the saints (v18) revealing the mystery of the hidden gospel "in Christ" (v3-4) that the gentiles should be fellow heirs of the same body and partakers of the promise of Christ by the gospel (v5-6). So the subject matter and audience here is to believers not unbelievers (v9) to make all men see what is the mystery which from the beginning of the world was hid in God. The mystery here in v9 is already defined as the gospel to the gentiles in Ephesians 3:2-6, that the gentile believer (chapter context) should be fellow heirs of the same body and partakers of the promise of Christ by the gospel. Ephesians 3:9 does not say that all men will be partakers. It says all men will see what is the fellowship of the mystery of the gospel. Sounds a little different once scripture context is added back in right?

Hillsage said:
ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful FLESH and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, "Those still "hid in God" from the ages before the cross to the 'ages after the cross' WILL be reconciled to God, even as God has ALREADY reconciled Himself to them, by the cross. God doesn't have a sin problem with anyone ETERNALLY. Jesus paid that ETERNAL price for all. It is simply a question as to when 'YOUR TURN, TO TURN' will come. Some bow the knee here, most don't. But this is a fact; "EVERY knee SHALL BOW and every tongue SHALL CONFESS to the glory of God." and not to His shame for letting Satan win almost ALL. How stupid is omniscience, if such a thing ever happened? "

Let's add the scripture context back in you have left out...

Romans 8:1-4
[1], THERE IS THEREFORE NOW NO CONDEMNATION TO THEM WHICH ARE “IN CHRIST JESUS”, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.
[2], FOR THE LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST JESUS HAS MADE ME FREE FROM THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH.
[3], FOR WHAT THE LAW COULD NOT DO, IN THAT IT WAS WEAK THROUGH THE FLESH, GOD SENDING HIS OWN SON IN THE LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH, AND FOR SIN, CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH:
[4], THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW MIGHT BE FULFILLED IN US, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.

Once again the subject matter and context is to believers "In Christ" not unbelievers outside of Christ. There is nothing in this scripture that supports the false teachings of Universalism that the unbelievers and the wicked receive everlasting life. The scriptures teach the opposite *John 3:36.

Hillsage said:
Let me answer my question you ignored.

Firstly, I answered your questions directly in post # 409 linked so your claim here is not being truthful. Your question was...

Hillsage said: ↑ Let's do one Question; What's the difference between "you in Christ" and "Christ in you"... in your opinion?

To which I responded with...

They are not separate. According to the scripture Christ abides in us and we in Him as we believe and follow His Word...

John 15:4-8 [4], Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me. [5], I am the vine, you are the branches: He that stays in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. [6], If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you. [8], Herein is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit; so shall you be my disciples.

Hillsage said:
MY GOD'S OMNISCIENCE was not STUPID enough to come up with a plan that allows Satan to win most hands down. MY God's price for sin was paid for ALL, 2,000 years ago. DEBT paid LGW!!!! So what's the purpose of an eternal punishING Auschwitz. Especially one infinitely worse than even Hitler conceived on earth? I'm just going to quit now, your long posts take a bit too long to answer. shorten them or I'm not interested. I'm already tiring of being back this short time.

Jesus did pay the dept and God has made provision in the death of His own son for the sins of the world. This however was addressed some time ago in the scriptures already provided in post # 404 linked, that shows that God's salvation is conditional in believing and following what God's Word says and not unconditional on not believing what Gods' Word says and breaking God's commandments. The latter is called sin according to the scriptures *Romans 3:4; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and Romans 14:23 and according to the scriptures there remains no more sacrifice for sin to those who reject God's Word but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come *Hebrews 10:26-31 which will devour the adversaries (more scripture on what happens to the unbelieving wicked here and here linked).

Take your time dear friend there is a lot of scripture that disagrees with your teachings here. My prayer is that you might receive God's Word and be blessed. According to the scriptures however ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear it becomes our judge come judgement day in John 12:47-48.

Take Care.

Hmm · Sep 25, 2021

Hillsage said:
So what's the purpose of an eternal punishING Auschwitz. Especially one infinitely worse than even Hitler conceived on earth?

Indeed. Hitler only spoke of a Thousand Year Reich which would make ECT far worse than Auschwitz. Thankfully it only lasted 12 years.

Hillsage · Sep 25, 2021

Hmm said:
Indeed. Hitler only spoke of a Thousand Year Reich which would make ECT far worse than Auschwitz. Thankfully it only lasted 12 years.

and again I say :amen:

Share a little of your testimony for me Hmm. You've appeared since I left, because COVID has increased 'actual Christian ministry time for me'.

Also share; when did you first become aware of the plan of God for the ultimate reconciliation of ALL?

BNR32FAN · Sep 25, 2021

Hmm said:
God's wrath isn't separate from his love though. I think of it like a human father who has told his child not to run into the road, the child runs, the father is angry in snatching hold of the child and pulling him/her back and the quick angry reaction was an act of love.

Hopefully not stretching the analogy too far, but if a father sees his elder son take his younger son’s toy for the umpteen time he gets angry and takes the older son aside and tells him about the consequences if he continues to do this which may include a punishment that fits the crime. The punishment has to be proportionate though - it wouldn't be very loving if the father tormented his son for the rest of his life.

We can’t view God’s decisions based on the decisions we would make. Would you kill someone just for touching your car? God killed a man for touching the Ark because he thought it was going to fall over and he tried to stop it. Would you throw someone into a lake of fire because they rejected you even just temporarily? God will. We can’t make assumptions as to what God will do that specifically contradict what He said He will do.

BNR32FAN · Sep 25, 2021

MMXX said:
I think a big difference for me is my relationship with the Lord was formed in early childhood.

I didn’t come to Christ until I was 38 years old and my incentive wasn’t love or fear it was sadness and loneliness. I was struggling in life very hard and I decided that the only way to get help from God was to turn to Him. I didn’t deserve His help because I was living my life my way not His way. After I came to Him, He changed both me and my life and I praise His Holy name for it.

Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

Blood-bought

Blood-bought

May God be with you and bless you.

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Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

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