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Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Hillsage

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"LONE VOICE"= St. Augustine. (Not you.)
I never took you as meaning 'ME'. I haven't even been around for a while.
The pro-universalism POV as argued on this thread has more than once tried to show how strong its case allegedly is by citing one Early Church Father (and one who wasn't very "early" at that).

If he is the lone voice from the first half-millennium who can be cited in defense of this theory, it isn't very strong as evidence.
I've posted them before. Admittedly it's been a while. But you were here then, just as now.

Don't miss dropping down to #11.... Jerome's quote. He's the reason for my signature quote at the bottom of the page.

Early Church Leaders Testify

Irenaeus: (130 to about 200 A.D.) ―Bishop of Lyons. His nearness to the apostles makes his testimony most interesting. Irenaeus did not believe evil would last forever. In his treatise Against Heretics, he wrote in

Book III, chap. 23, §6:‖1

Wherefore also He drove him (Adam) out of Paradise, and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare to assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not continue always a sinner, and that the sin which surrounded him should not be immortal, and the evil interminable and irremediable.—Irenaeus.2

Theophilus, (160-181 A.D.) ―Bishop of Antioch.‖ 3

And God showed great kindness to man in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but, as it were by a kind of banishment, cast him out of Paradise, in order that, having by punishment expiated within an appointed time the sin, and having been disciplined, he should afterward be recalled.—Theophilus. To Autolycus, Book 2, chap. 26.4

Clement of Alexandria, (190 A.D.) ―Head of the catechetical school there. He speaks of having learned from a disciple of the Apostles.— Strom. lib. ii. His wide and various learning, and his sympathetic spirit combine to give special weight to his teaching.‖5

All men are Christ‘s, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet. He is the Savior, not of some (only) and of the rest not (i.e., He is actually Savior of all) for how is He Lord and Savior if He is not Lord and Savior of all? But He is indeed Savior of those who believe…while of those who do not believe He is Lord, until having become able to confess Him, they obtain through Him the benefit appropriate and suitable (to their case). He by the Father‘s will directs the salvation of all for all things have been ordered, both universally and in part, by the Lord of the universe; with a view to the salvation of the universe.…But needful correction, by the goodness of the great overseeing Judge,


through (by means of) the attendant angels, through various prior judgments, through the final (pantelous) judgment, compels even those who have become still more callous to repent.—Clement. Strom. lib. vii. pp. 702-6, Cologne, 1688.6

Origen, (185-254 A.D.) ―Pupil and successor of Clement of Alexandria, founded a school at Caesarea…the greatest theologian and exegete of the Eastern Church.‖7

But he that despises the purification of the word of God and the doctrine of the Gospel only keeps himself for dreadful and penal purifications afterward; that so the fire of hell may purge him in torments whom neither apostolical doctrine nor gospel preaching has cleansed, according to that which is written of being ―purified by fire.‖ But how long this purification which is wrought out by penal fire shall endure, or for how many periods or ages it shall torment sinners, He only knows to whom all judgment is committed by the Father.—Origen. Commentary on Rom., Book 8, Chap. 11.8

Eusebius of Caesarea, (265-340 A.D.) ―Bishop of Caesarea in Palestine; friend of Constantine; the greatest of the early Church historians, wrote on Ps. 2:‖9 ―The Son‘s ‗breaking in pieces‘ His enemies is for the sake of remolding them, as a potter his own work; as Jer. xviii. 6, says:

i.e., to restore them once more to their former state.‖–Eusebius. De eccles. theol. iii. 16.10

Athanasius, (296-373 A.D.) ―Called ‗the Great,‘ ‗Father of Orthodoxy,‘ ‗Pillar of Orthodoxy;‘ Bishop of Alexandria and writer of many works; especially noted for defending the deity of our Lord.‖11 ―While the devil thought to kill one he is deprived of all cast out of Hades, and sitting by the gates, sees all the fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Savior.‖—

Athanasius. De pass. et cruce Darn.12

Gregory Nazianzen, (330-390 A.D.) ―President of the second great Ecumenical Council, was considered the most learned bishop in one of the most learned ages of the Church.‖13

―Until He loosed by His blood all who groan under Tartarean chains.‖—Carm. xxxv. (ed. Lyons, 1840.) ―Today salvation has been brought to the universe to whatsoever is visible and whatsoever is invisible…(today) the gates of Hades are thrown open.‖—Or. xlii. ―Adam receives death as a gain, and (thereby) the cutting off of sin; that evil should not be immortal: and so the vengeance turns out a kindness, for thus I am of opinion it is that God punishes.‖— Nazianzen. Orat. xlii.14

Ambrose, (340-397 A.D.) ―Bishop of Milan; converted Augustine by his preaching; the Father of Latin hymnology; reproduced many of the writings of the Greek Fathers.‖15

The mystery of the Incarnation is the salvation of the entire creation…as it is elsewhere said, ―the whole creation shall be set free from the bondage of corruption‖.…So the Son of Man came to save that which was lost, i.e., all, for as in Adam all die, so, too, in Christ shall all be made alive. The subjection of Christ consists not in few, but in all (becoming obedient)…Christ will be subject to God in us by means of the obedience of all…(then) when vices having been cast away, and sin reduced to submission, one spirit of all people, in one sentiment, shall with one accord begin to cleave to God, then God will be All in All.—Ambrose. De

fide lib. v. 7.16

Didymus, (380 A.D.) ―The last distinguished head of the school of Alexandria, Didymus, surpassed all of his day in knowledge of the Scriptures.‖ says S. Jerome. He argues, ―divine correction (even vengeance), and promise, have the same object in view.‖—Adv. Man. ch. xviii.17 Also ―God ‗destroys liars, so far as they are liars.‘—In Ps. v. 6. [Christ] ‗descends to

Hades and brings back the souls, there detained on account of their sins.‘‖—

Didymus. In Ps. lxxi. 20. See, too, De Trin. lib. iii 21, &c.18

Gregory of Nyssa, (332-398 A.D.) ―A leading theologian of the Eastern Church and one of the most prominent figures in the second great

Church Council which practically established the orthodoxy of the Nicene

Creed.‖19

The Divine judgment does not as its chief object cause pain to those who have sinned, but works good alone by separating from evil, and drawing to a share in blessedness. But this severance of good from evil causes the pain (of the judgment). In other words, the penalty is the cure; it is merely the unavoidable pain attending the removal of the intruding element of sin.—Gregory. Dialogue of the Soul and Resurrection.20

Jerome, (340-420 A.D.) ―Devoted to Scripture study; revised the old Latin translations and translated the Old Testament from Hebrew into Latin of the New Testament. Allin stated he found nearly 100 passages in his works indicating Jerome sympathized with the ‗larger hope.‘‖21 ―When the Psalmist says, ‗Your enemies, O God, shall perish,‘…every man who has been Your enemy shall hereafter be made Your friend; the man shall not perish, the enemy shall perish.‖—Jerome. In Ps. xcii. 9.22

Hillary, (354 A.D.) ―Hillary, Bishop of Poictiers, is considered one of the champions of orthodoxy.‖23 ―The whole human race, who are one, are the one lost sheep, which is destined to be found by the Good Shepherd.‖—

Hillary.24

Titus, (364 A.D.) ―Bishop of Bostra. Caillou, describes as ‗the most learned among the learned bishops of his age, and a most famous champion of the truth.‘ S. Jerome reckons him as one of those, in whom you are at a loss whether to admire most, their learning or their knowledge of Holy

Scripture.‖25

The very pit itself is a place of torments and of chastisement, but is not eternal. It was made that it might be a medicine and help to those who sin. Sacred are the stripes which are medicine to those who have sinned. ―Therefore we do not complain of the pits (of hell)—abyssis—but rather know that they are places of torment, and chastisement, being for the correction (amendment of those who have sinned.‖—Titus Adv. Man. lib. i. 32.26

Diodorus, (378 A.D.) ―Bishop of Tarsus…noted for untiring zeal in defense of the Nicene Faith.‖27 ―For the wicked there are punishments not perpetual…according to the amount of malice in their works.…The Resurrection, therefore, is regarded as a blessing not only to the good but also to the evil.‖—Diodorus. ASSEM. Bibl. Or. iii. p. 324.28

Theodore of Mopsuestia, (407 A.D.) ―The crown and climax of the school of Antioch…called the ‗Master of the East‘ from his theological eminence.‖ Dorner. ( Pers. of Christ, i. 50).29

―Who is so great a fool as to think, that so great a blessing can be to those that arise, the occasion of endless torment?‖—Frag. Ex. lib. cont. pecc. orig. ―All have the hope of rising with Christ, so that the body having obtained immortality, thenceforward the proclivity to evil should be removed.‖ [God] ―recapitulated all things in Christ…as though making a compendious renewal, and restoration of the whole creation, through Him.…Now this will take place in a future age, when all mankind and all powers (virtues) possessed of reason, look up to Him, as is right, and obtain mutual concord and firm peace.‖—Theodore. In Eph. i.

10.30

Cyril of Alexandria, (412 A.D.) ―He (Cyril) describes Christ as having spoiled Hades, and ‗left the devil there solitary and deserted.‘—Hom. Pasch. vii. And again, ‗Christ, wandering down even to Hades, has emptied the dark, hidden, unseen treasuries.‘‖—Glaphy in Gen. lib ii.31 ―For when death devoured Him who was the Lamb on behalf of all, it vomited forth all men in Him and with Him.…Now when sin has been destroyed, how should it be but that death, too, should wholly perish?‖—Cyril. In S. Jno. i. 29.32

Maximus of Turin, (422 A.D.) ―Christ carried off to heaven man whose cause He undertook, snatched from the jaws of Hades mankind.‖—

Maximus. In Pent. Horn. ii.33

Theodoret, (423 A.D.) ―Bishop of Cyrus…perhaps the most famous, and certainly the most learned teacher of his age; uniting to a noble intellect a character and accomplishments equally noble.‖34 ―After His anger, God will bring to an end His judgment; for He will not be angry unto the end, nor keep His wrath to eternity.‖—Theodoret. In Is. xiii.35 ―He shews here the reason for punishment, for the Lord, the lover of men, torments us only to cure us, that He may put a stop to the course of our iniquity.‖—Theodoret.

Hom in Ezech. cap. Vi. vers 6.36

Peter Chrysologus, (433 A.D.) ―Bishop of Ravenna.‖37 On the parable of the hundred sheep he said, ―That the one lost sheep represents ‗the whole human race lost in Adam,‘ and so the Good Shepherd ‗follows the one, seeks the one, in order that in the one He may find all, in the one He may restore all.‘‖—Chrysologus. Ser. clxviii.38

Appendage by D. Scott Reichard 39

The Apostles and Nicene Creeds and first four General Councils had not one word of condemnation against the Blessed Hope even though it was widely prevalent.

Chrysostom 400 A.D. — Trained in the school of Antioch and pupil of Diodorus of Tarsus. He sanctioned prayers for the dead and non-repentant. ―It was needful that God reconcile them perfectly so that they should never again become His enemies.‖ ―If punishment were an evil to those who sin, God never would have added evils to evils.‖ ―God kindly inflicts vengeance.‖ Gen. iii. Hom. xviii.

Domitian of Galatia — Bishop of Ancyra. In the book he wrote to Vigilius says, ―they have hastily run out to anathematize most holy and glorious teachers on account of those doctrines which have been advanced concerning restitution.‖

Epistle to Diognetus Approx.150 A.D. — Describes the ―eternal fire‖ as chastening not ―without end‖ but up to an end.‖-- Mechri telous. ch.x.

F. M. Victorinus 360 A.D. — Rhetorician at Rome. ―He is Jesus Christ because He will save all things unto life.‖--ib. iii. 8.

Gregory of Nazianzen 325-390 A.D. — Bishop of Constantinople says, ―they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism which consumes all vanity and vice." Orat. xxxix, 19- n.

Gregory Thaumaturgus 254 A.D. — Bishop of Caesarea. Was distinguished for orthodoxy and numerous alleged miracles. Converted nearly the whole pop. to Christianity. Taught Restoration boldly. Rufinus, Invec.in Hier. Lib.i. prope fin.

Irenaeus 180 A.D. — ―Christ will come at the end of the times in order to annul everything evil, and to reconcile again all things, that there may be an end of all impurities.‖ Frag. iv.

Jerome 340-420 A.D. says: — "Fire is God's last medicine for the ten tribes, and for heretics, and for all sin sinners…when the divine fire shall have burned up all that is vilest in them, they themselves shall be delivered as a brand snatched from the burning." - In Amos iv. ii. 22

Macrina 375 A.D. — On her death bed, she cheers her brother Basil by boldly assuring him of the extent of Christ‘s redemption---as destined to embrace savingly all humanity, destined to blot from the universe every stain of sin. The purificatory nature of the fire of Hell is unmistakably set forth. Dict. of Christ. Biog. iii. P. 780.

Marcellus of Ancyra 315 A.D. — ―For what else do the words mean, ―until the times of restitution but that the Apostle designed to point out that time, in which all things partake of that perfect restoration.‖ Cont. Mar. ii. 4.

Pamphilus, the martyr 294 A.D. — Founded library and school at Caesarea. Wrote in his Apology for Origen with Eusebius there were very many testimonies of Fathers earlier than Origen, in favor of Restoration---Routh, Rel. sac. iii. P. 498.

Paulinus 393 A.D. — Bishop of Nola. ― A common disobedience shut up all, in order that faith might heal the whole; so that all the world may be made God‘s servant.‖---Carm. Ad Cyth. p. 494, ed. Antwerp, 1622.

Rufinus 390 A.D. — Taught that future punishment of the wicked was temporary. Huet, Orig. ii. p. 160

Sibylline books 2nd, 3rd centuries — They clearly state the beliefs current in those days. ―All things, even Hades are to be melted down in the divine fire in order to be purified. All just and unjust pass through the fire. The lost are finally to be saved at the request of the righteous.‖ Lib. ii., vv. 195-340. ―The Sibyl asserts that the pains of the damned are to be terminated.‖ Fabric., Bibl. Grec. I. p. 203.

Theodore the Blessed 423 A.D. — Bishop of Cyrus. Most famous and learned teacher of his age. ―All the Kings of the earth shall adore Him. Some indeed in the present life willingly, but all the rest after Resurrection.‖ In Ps. Lxxx.

18. ―After His anger, God will bring to an end, nor keep His wrath to eternity.‖ In

Is. xiii.
 
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Or is God's punishment of "hell" a revelation of the proportion of the crime in rejecting and disobeying (thumbing your nose at) the Divine Sovereign?
I say it is. . .

Could you give an example of something for which eternal torment would be a proportionate punishment because I'm struggling to think of one? :scratch:
 
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We see our eternal future in a glass darkly, not what God has plainly revealed to us in his word now.

Well, the verse is:

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 Corinthians 13:12

I'm sure there are no references to eternal future there even though I'm reading it through a glass, darkly.
 
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The only reason anyone rejects Christianity is because they are not born of the Holy Spirit

I agree, but there's no reason other than custom to think that the Holy Spirit cannot do it's (is that the correct pronoun to use) transformative work after death, and we have scripture that tells us it can.
 
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Albion

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I never took you as meaning 'ME'. I haven't even been around for a while.
I know, but that's what your post seemed to me to be saying. We all know that when we use extremely brief comments in order to express surprise or outrage or anything like that, the meaning can be lost on the reader.

Anyway, Augustine has repeatedly been cited, alone, as the 'proof' of a universalist tradition in the early church, so that was what I was commenting on.
 
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Clare73

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You have arrived logically...to a wrong conclusion.
I have not been keeping up - I'm way past.
Are you sure about that?

Salted with the fire of refining is dealing radically with our sin (cut it off, pluck it out) so that we won't end up in the LoF, making the LoF not the fire of refining with which we are salted.
 
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First, my apologies to everyone for this inexcusable wandering off topic. Right, got that part out of the way.
1970s, soldiers from the Parachute Regiment were training with the US 101st Airborne near Nashville. The 101st asked for local families to entertain the viisiting troops on weekends. My dad signed up because he'd been in the 8th Air Force in England (North Pickenham, Norfolk) and had returned home a shameless Anglophile.

The Para guys who stayed with us weren't much older than I was, and I ended up bringing a couple of them down to Nashville on a few occasions to have a beer or two. One of them was from London, and was a Millwall fan. He persuaded me that Millwall were the best team in the world, and that anyone who supported any other club was best described by a number of colorful slang expressions that i won't use here. That was the entirety of my knowledge of football.

Many years later the Anglophilia I'd inherited from my dad asserted itself, and I got interested in English sports. That's when I discovered EFL football, and the one team I knew anything about at all was Millwall. So there I am, a Southern-accented half-Korean old gaffer from Tennessee who is, against all reason, a Millwall supporter. Come on you Lions! (The fact that I'm also probably the only card-carrying member of the Barmy Army in Middle Tennessee as well is, I think, best left unexamined.)

Amazing story. Your Para friend may well have gone on to play for Millwall if he managed to pass their fighting skill tests! I'm on your side with the Barmy Army though.
 
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Clare73

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I don't think that UR should be taught as a fact to all people. But one should not reject the possibility. The following passage, among others, convince me that it is a plausible theory:

Php 2:9 Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father.
(Which glory through the Son is the whole purpose of creation.)

Yes, even the demons will confess (agree) that Jesus Christ is the Lord Omnipotent,
but that doesn't mean they are in favor of it.

I will confess (agree) that China's navy is greater than that of the U.S.,
but that doesn't mean that I am in favor of it.
 
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Are you sure about that?

Salted with the fire of refining is dealing radically with our sin (cut it off, pluck it out) so that we won't end up in the LoF, making the LoF not the fire of refining with which we are salted.

Sulphur, as used in the LoF, is an element that was used to refine metals in biblical times so I'm not sure you're right. I doubt it's a literal fire anyway. God's love would feel like fire if your sin was being purified, and would feel like warmth otherwise, no?
 
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Albion

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If everyone has always been guaranteed admission to heaven, what purpose was there in Christ's death and resurrection?

We say he took the sins of the world upon himself...and that he made possible our salvation through believing and trusting him. But what if some humans don't do any of that? Oh, they're saved anyway??
 
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If everyone has always been guaranteed admission to heaven, what purpose was there in Christ's death and resurrection?

We say he took the sins of the world upon himself...and that he made possible our salvation through believing and trusting him. But what if some humans don't do any of that? Oh, they're saved anyway??

God doesn't give up on us at the moment of our death. He ensures that we do all eventually come to believe and trust in Him so that He achieves His desire to be 'all' in 'all'.
 
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Clare73

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Could you give an example of something for which eternal torment would be a proportionate punishment because I'm struggling to think of one? :scratch:
Any rebellion against a Divine Sovereign, which all sin is.

Saving knowledge of the Scriptures through the Holy Spirit gives one to understand something of the magnitude. . .righteousnes. . . purity. . .exaltedness. . .infinity. . .totally "otherness" of the Divinity, who declares that our ways are not his ways, which by definition will not be according to our thinking, nor "comfortable" to us as natural (as distinguished from spiritually born again) humans, but nevertheless, our thinking and comfort aside, "as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are his ways higher than our ways."
(Isaiah 55:8-9)

Therefore, there will be no example, with which natural human thinking would agree that eternal torment would be proportionate punishment. That agreement, along with the disposition to receive, prefer and submit to God's ways, is found only through the Holy Spirit (John 3:3; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8).

You will find no born again who finds it appropriate to challenge God's ways based on human suppositions and thinking, and which is not the same as questioning and submissively seeking understanding of them from him in his word, and other mature born again.
 
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Well, the verse is:
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:
now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 Corinthians 13:12
I'm sure there are no references to eternal future there even though I'm reading it through a glass, darkly.
Wow. . .

So when is "now" and when is "then"?
 
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John Mullally

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Jesus who proved His love for humanity, gave many warnings. We should heed them - here is one of milder ones of them:

Matthew 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
The warning would not be given if one could not lose his soul. The price for that error is not calculable.
 
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Clare73

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I agree, but there's no reason other than custom to think that the Holy Spirit cannot do it's
(is that the correct pronoun to use) transformative work after death, and we have scripture that tells us it can.
Not in my Bible. . .

And the pronoun would be "his," for the Holy Spirit is a "he."
 
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Der Alte

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Could you give an example of something for which eternal torment would be a proportionate punishment because I'm struggling to think of one? :scratch:
Where does God tell us to decide what is/is not "proportionate punishment" for sins? Was the punishment of all inhabitants of the world at the time of Noah; old, young, men, women, children, infants proportionate?
Was the punishment of all inhabitants of Sodom, Gomorrah etc. old, young, men, women, children, infants proportionate?
Was the punishment of all inhabitants of the cities of Canaan etc. old, young, men, women, children, infants proportionate?
 
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Sulphur, as used in the LoF, is an element that was used to refine metals in biblical times so I'm not sure you're right. I doubt it's a literal fire anyway. God's love would feel like fire if your sin was being purified, and would feel like warmth otherwise, no?
Are you sure about that?

Sulfur simply makes the fire hotter. Sulfur is about enhancing the fire, the fire does the refining.
 
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Der Alte

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God doesn't give up on us at the moment of our death. He ensures that we do all eventually come to believe and trust in Him so that He achieves His desire to be 'all' in 'all'.
Where did the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself say that they would save all mankind, righteous and unrighteous alike, no matter what, even after death?
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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Are you sure about that?
Salted with the fire of refining is dealing radically with our sin (cut it off, pluck it out) so that we won't end up in the LoF, making the LoF not the fire of refining with which we are salted
.
Salt does NOT refine! Heterodox groups often quote Mk 9:49 out-of-context as an "everyone will be saved" verse. Mark 9:42-49
42 "If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.
47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
48 where "'the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.​
Note vs. 42 speaks about a punishment worse than death not salvation.
Salt does not make the offering acceptable it must be clean before it is salted.
Ezekiel 43:23-24
23 When you have finished purifying it, you are to offer a young bull and a ram from the flock, both without defect.
24 You are to offer them before the LORD, and the priests are to sprinkle salt on them and sacrifice them as a burnt offering to the LORD.
Leviticus 2:13
13 Season all your grain offerings with salt. Do not leave the salt of the covenant of your God out of your grain offerings; add salt to all your offerings.​
 
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Lazarus Short

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Are you sure about that?

Salted with the fire of refining is dealing radically with our sin (cut it off, pluck it out) so that we won't end up in the LoF, making the LoF not the fire of refining with which we are salted.

Clare, I believe that only the overcomers in Christ, those who already have their names written in the Book of Life, will not need to go through the LoF.
 
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