Refusing to be vaccinated against Covid-19 is a ’sin’ & anti-vaxxers must spend their life repenting

Melily said:

I appreciate your input and think I get what you’re saying. I’ve been moderating a health forum for just over 7 years. On the other hand I’ve interacted with some very helpful people here and I genuinely appreciate that fact.
I’m not going to let the current division deter me from continuing on the Orthodox Christian path although I suppose if vaccination is required to attend services I may have to find another parish.

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If vaccination is required to attend services, then something is seriously wrong. That is not Orthodox teaching (requiring vaccines to attend). I pray it doesn’t come to that!

I don't think vaccination will be required to attend services, nobody is suggesting that to be the case, at least not in the US. We must be careful not to let our paranoia get in the way of our metanoia

All4Christ said:

I pray it doesn’t come to that!

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Thank you, me too.

Justin-H.S. said:

That’s not Orthodox phronema according to Fr. Andrew’s new book “Arise O God.” In chapter 1 he went into detail about just how political the evangelion is.

The modern tendency is to separate church and state like you prefer. It’s an outcropping of “Enlightenment” thinking which was itself an outcrop of the wars of western religion which was the result of the Reformation. Separation of church and state was not the presupposition of the Ancient Faith. Separation is desacralization of Creation. It’s Gnostic thinking.

Everyday we pray “He is everywhere present...” That includes politics.

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Of course He is everywhere present, including politics. We pray for our president in every service and we pray for the world around us. (Note that I also said we can’t stick our heads in the sand and that we need to know how to respond to the political climate around us.)

I don’t believe that the early early church taught to have union of State and Church though (such as Russia or Greece). While it has benefits, it also opens up the way for a lot of corruption as well. It rarely is implemented in the way that the Church promoted.

The Church taught the concept of Symphonia - the government and the Church being counterparts - one dealing with the world and the other dealing with the Kingdom - working together to achieve the ideal political, material and spiritual life. That’s not what we are experiencing today, and I’d posit that it isn’t what even happened back in the time of the Christian emperors back during the time of the ecumenical councils. The emperors were even given special places of honor in the Church, could enter the altar, call Councils, etc. That seems to be influence on the Church’s theology - at worst, even putting the emperor above the Church. (Even some empresses were anointed for the coronation inside the altar and partook of communion in the same manner as the priests - for example, Empress Anna in the 1700s.) Symphonia isn’t even truly a union of Church and State though. It’s the idea of the two working collaboratively side by side - dovetailing each other - with different areas of influence.

We (in America at least) do not have that luxury, and anyone who thinks we can accomplish that with our government here in the Western world is deluding themselves. What we should do is to allow our faith, teachings, morality to dictate what we do here on Earth. That absolutely impacts our political decisions and beliefs. It doesn’t make politics more important than faith though, as it should not be the primary focus of us as Christians. Our citizenship first and foremost is the Kingdom of God. We are to be in this world, but not of it.

Gnostic teaching would suggest that the physical is evil and the spiritual is good (simplifying it greatly). Stating that union of Church and state is not the best path is not the same as the Gnosticism.

All4Christ said:

I don’t believe that the early early church taught to have union of State and Church though (such as Russia or Greece). While it has benefits, it also opens up the way for a lot of corruption as well. It rarely is implemented in the way that the Church promoted.

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Ahem...*cough* Israel! *cough* Symphonies were the status quo in ancient times. Secular Republics were not. Not even the Roman republic lasted very long before Ceasar crossed the rubicon.

We (in America at least) do not have that luxury, and anyone who thinks we can accomplish that with our government here in the Western world is deluding themselves. What we should do is to allow our faith, teachings, morality to dictate what we do here on Earth. That absolutely impacts our political decisions and beliefs. It doesn’t make politics more important than faith though, as it should not be the primary focus of us as Christians. Our citizenship first and foremost is the Kingdom of God. We are to be in this world, but not of it.

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Yes and no. Secular Republics are the exception, not the rule. As you can see the current secular republic crumbling as the executive branch is doing something not common in republics: mandating laws without the senate, acting almost like...a monarch. A godless monarch, but a monarch nonetheless. That’s not how republics work which is why so many people are opposing the mandate by diktat. Now, you could argue that the Presidency was slowly turning into a weird sort of monarchy since around...JFK, but it's happened multiple times in the history of this secular republic: Lincoln, W. Wilson, FDR, then JFK and onwards.

Gnostic teaching would suggest that the physical is evil and the spiritual is good (simplifying it greatly). Stating that union of Church and state is not the best path is not the same as the Gnosticism.

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Yes, Gnostic teaching desacralizes Creation by, in your words, suggesting the physical is evil. We said the same thing in two different ways. I said the idea of church/state separation is a form of Gnosticism which was the goal of freemasonic thinking. That’s what the Enlightenment was about: desacralizing the physical world. Breaking the connection between God and Creation.

ArmyMatt said:

I don't know if he was encouraged to go elsewhere or they mutually agreed to part company. that's not relevant to what we are talking about.

either Fr Tryphon was cancelled or he wasn't. he wasn't. talking about not liking AFR's content or questioning its Orthodoxy is a different issue.

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I consider what was done with Abbot Tryphon to be less important than the other issues. Especially if it winds up just being a distraction from them, though I do think it impossible to speak honestly and to topics while avoiding political questions, and that issue to be a symptom, though a lesser one, of the general divisions we now see in the world in general, in the Christian world more particularly, and in the Orthodox world most of all.

It is now impossible to eliminate the political. You cannot. Every thing is polarizing and taking sides. It was possible in times when people shared a much more common world view, as the political differences would not produce a climate where the winners would actively punish the losers in political elections, such as actual persecution of Christians. That is no longer the case. To refuse to talk about politics is simply to try to pretend that the political choices do not have adverse effects on people, and that is hardly loving one’s neighbor to strive to be so indifferent to what the politics do to him. We must maintain our focus on the Gospel, eternity, and our own sins, but we must not go so far that we become indifferent to what forces threaten our neighbor, both in this life and in eternity. And frankly, I am thoroughly convinced that the call to be apolitical merely means that “people whose politics differ significantly from mine should keep quiet”.

rusmeister said:

I consider what was done with Abbot Tryphon to be less important than the other issues. Especially if it winds up just being a distraction from them, though I do think it impossible to speak honestly and to topics while avoiding political questions, and that issue to be a symptom, though a lesser one, of the general divisions we now see in the world in general, in the Christian world more particularly, and in the Orthodox world most of all.

It is now impossible to eliminate the political. You cannot. Every thing is polarizing and taking sides. It was possible in times when people shared a much more common world view, as the political differences would not produce a climate where the winners would actively punish the losers in political elections, such as actual persecution of Christians. That is no longer the case. To refuse to talk about politics is simply to try to pretend that the political choices do not have adverse effects on people, and that is hardly loving one’s neighbor to strive to be so indifferent to what the politics do to him. We must maintain our focus on the Gospel, eternity, and our own sins, but we must not go so far that we become indifferent to what forces threaten our neighbor, both in this life and in eternity. And frankly, I am thoroughly convinced that the call to be apolitical merely means that “people whose politics differ significantly from mine should keep quiet”.

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well, Fr Tryphon's issue, according to Fr Andrew, was the open endorsement of a politician. that's not the same as covering a political topic. heck, AFR recorded two conferences at Jordanville and St Tikhon's to combat modern sexual anarchy and perversion, abortion, etc. so the issue of politics in general or how our Church should approach politics was also what Fr Tryphon said in his blog post.

Justin-H.S. said:

Ahem...*cough* Israel! *cough* Symphonies were the status quo in ancient times. Secular Republics were not. Not even the Roman republic lasted very long before Ceasar crossed the rubicon.



Yes and no. Secular Republics are the exception, not the rule. As you can see the current secular republic crumbling as the executive branch is doing something not common in republics: mandating laws without the senate, acting almost like...a monarch. A godless monarch, but a monarch nonetheless. That’s not how republics work which is why so many people are opposing the mandate by diktat. Now, you could argue that the Presidency was slowly turning into a weird sort of monarchy since around...JFK, but it's happened multiple times in the history of this secular republic: Lincoln, W. Wilson, FDR, then JFK and onwards.




Yes, Gnostic teaching desacralizes Creation by, in your words, suggesting the physical is evil. We said the same thing in two different ways. I said the idea of church/state separation is a form of Gnosticism which was the goal of freemasonic thinking. That’s what the Enlightenment was about: desacralizing the physical world. Breaking the connection between God and Creation.

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I am not suggesting that we should break the connection between God and Creation - far from it. I also am not trying to say that we shouldn’t discuss things that are, by very nature of what they are, political. Modern sexual anarchy would be a good example of this. Sadly, right now, we don’t have a unified front on politics in Orthodoxy. We have bishops who become good friends with certain political parties, even those in government that support abortion and homosexuality. We have others that will pray for our government but will not stand for the immorality that is around us. Orthodox Christians aren’t, however, first and foremost, Republicans, Democratic, Independent, etc. First and foremost - our Orthodox beliefs - our Christianity - should dictate what we should do and support in politics. This, by nature of issues, will translate into what we should support.

No argument here about the crumbling of our secular “republic”, it it can even be called that.

@rusmeister I’m not calling for complete ignorance of politics or avoiding it altogether. It’s a matter of how we relate our faith to politics. I do think we get too deep into the thick of politics though, both Church and elsewhere, and at times can lose that focus on our own spiritual growth. It’s even worse when you have Orthodox Christians (even Orthodox leaders) promoting certain political topics / officials that are against the teaching of the Church.

We experience controversy all around us, and ultimately, guidance on how we can live a Christian life in the midst of all this around us is the most important thing from my perspective. Yes - we need to do that in the midst of politics…and everything is impacted and influenced by it.

We need a unified Church - and it often seems like we are far from that.

Justin-H.S. said:

Ahem...*cough* Israel! *cough* Symphonies were the status quo in ancient times. Secular Republics were not. Not even the Roman republic lasted very long before Ceasar crossed the rubicon.

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For what it’s worth, I consider Symphonies to not be the equivalent of union of Church and State. It’s more of a collaboration of Church and State. That said, monarchies and empires literally considered the leader to be ordained by God... God help us if that was the case in our secular America!

When I spoke of the early early Church, I was referencing Jesus not coming to overthrow the government (hence why people were saying Hosanna one week, and Crucify Him the next), Christians living in a community with the secular government around them, supporting each other and the Church without depending on the government, etc.

All4Christ said:

Christians living in a community with the secular government around them, supporting each other and the Church without depending on the government, etc.

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Orthodox Churches are deeply involved with the state and interweaved with the national identity maybe in slightly varying degrees, but always. Plus in many places the Church is funded in some way by the government. Plus it gets as involved as it can in making legislative proposals, sometimes openly campaigning for political issues, so forth... Sure the EU is enforcing more separation NOW in the countries that are under that rule, but that's a different issue.

I'm guessing this is a matter of perspective? In a traditionally non-Orthodox geography where the Church is just too small to be involved at the top level of government it seems plausible. But everywhere else it is, and from my perspective this discussion sounds like a... virtual reality I don't have the words to explain, it's just that things are literally the opposite.

ArmyMatt said:

well, Fr Tryphon's issue, according to Fr Andrew, was the open endorsement of a politician. that's not the same as covering a political topic. heck, AFR recorded two conferences at Jordanville and St Tikhon's to combat modern sexual anarchy and perversion, abortion, etc. so the issue of politics in general or how our Church should approach politics was also what Fr Tryphon said in his blog post.

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I like that. It just doesn’t square, though, with their hosting people who publicly support ideas hostile to our teachings. Why didn’t they say several years ago that podcasters should NOT be promoting “Game of Thrones” to young people? Why was it justified rather than a mea culpa and fixing the problem? Why are so many people who push LGBT, radical feminism, and other movements contrary to our Faith getting air time on AFR/AFM?
Orthodoxy’s Appeal to the Liberal Left – The Byzantine Chronicle

I WANT to support AFR, but how can I when they unapologetically host these sorts of things? And I believe these things are linked with the radical push to inject these experimental vaccines into everyone. They’re not isolated coincidences, but part of a strategic push.

Andrei D said:

Orthodox Churches are deeply involved with the state and interweaved with the national identity maybe in slightly varying degrees, but always. Plus in many places the Church is funded in some way by the government. Plus it gets as involved as it can in making legislative proposals, sometimes openly campaigning for political issues, so forth... Sure the EU is enforcing more separation NOW in the countries that are under that rule, but that's a different issue.

I'm guessing this is a matter of perspective? In a traditionally non-Orthodox geography where the Church is just too small to be involved at the top level of government it seems plausible. But everywhere else it is, and from my perspective this discussion sounds like a... virtual reality I don't have the words to explain, it's just that things are literally the opposite.

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It likely is a matter of perspective. A government where Church and State truly work together properly seems like a virtual reality to me as well…pie in the sky type of scenario.

ArmyMatt said:

well, Fr Tryphon's issue, according to Fr Andrew, was the open endorsement of a politician. that's not the same as covering a political topic. heck, AFR recorded two conferences at Jordanville and St Tikhon's to combat modern sexual anarchy and perversion, abortion, etc. so the issue of politics in general or how our Church should approach politics was also what Fr Tryphon said in his blog post.

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When did the abbot endorse a political candidate? I’ve not heard him or read him doing that from the you tube videos and FB posts I’ve read over the last few years. Did I miss one where he actually encouraged people to vote for a particular person?

really, the abbot has been quite balanced. If we are to have concerns over our clergy being too political or getting into the thick of political issues with politicians and such, I’ve found Fr. Josiah Trenham to be a bit over the top and leaning too far one direction on the political scale and at times speaking too much with regards to our founding fathers in the US and the like, in a rather political manner. And his speaking at events with Protestants and other Christian groups at times have come across as too much. But it’s probably just me.

All4Christ said:

If vaccination is required to attend services, then something is seriously wrong. That is not Orthodox teaching (requiring vaccines to attend). I pray it doesn’t come to that!

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Judging by the info I just listened to today via an independent commentator following this issue, where he shared portions of the meeting with FDA officials on stopping boosters - 16 to 2. That’s quite remarkable. And the comments these doctors made tell me there will be an end to the mandate idea and the vaccines soon. I’ll try and post the video and will tell you the mins and seconds where that convo starts. It was quite eye opening for me, especially when they’re basically saying the benefits of the vaccines don’t outweigh the risks. Stay tuned.

Here’s the video. It starts around 30 minutes.

https://wwww.[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ute.com/video/d9OXnK8fqHNm/


Sorry. Apparently the computer sensor on this site is identifying bit chute dot com (all one word) as a bad word. Lol just put that in place of the [bless don’t curse] sections. Hoping that works.

just a heads up. Ryan has a particular viewpoint and says it’s his opinions throughout. But listen to the FDA experts. It’s important info.

Dorothea said:

When did the abbot endorse a political candidate? I’ve not heard him or read him doing that from the you tube videos and FB posts I’ve read over the last few years. Did I miss one where he actually encouraged people to vote for a particular person?.

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I could be wrong but I understood the endorsement was in the episode not aired. The one that by not airing led to the claim(s) of being "cancelled"

rusmeister said:

I like that. It just doesn’t square, though, with their hosting people who publicly support ideas hostile to our teachings. Why didn’t they say several years ago that podcasters should NOT be promoting “Game of Thrones” to young people? Why was it justified rather than a mea culpa and fixing the problem? Why are so many people who push LGBT, radical feminism, and other movements contrary to our Faith getting air time on AFR/AFM?
Orthodoxy’s Appeal to the Liberal Left – The Byzantine Chronicle

I WANT to support AFR, but how can I when they unapologetically host these sorts of things? And I believe these things are linked with the radical push to inject these experimental vaccines into everyone. They’re not isolated coincidences, but part of a strategic push.

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except the Game of Thrones thing was apologized for by both Fr Andrew and Steve Christophorou on subsequent podcasts.

no one is asking you to support AFR. no one cares if you do or don't.

Dorothea said:

When did the abbot endorse a political candidate? I’ve not heard him or read him doing that from the you tube videos and FB posts I’ve read over the last few years. Did I miss one where he actually encouraged people to vote for a particular person?

really, the abbot has been quite balanced. If we are to have concerns over our clergy being too political or getting into the thick of political issues with politicians and such, I’ve found Fr. Josiah Trenham to be a bit over the top and leaning too far one direction on the political scale and at times speaking too much with regards to our founding fathers in the US and the like, in a rather political manner. And his speaking at events with Protestants and other Christian groups at times have come across as too much. But it’s probably just me.

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it was on the blog post that never got posted. it was AFR saying they would not post a blog article because it endorsed a political leader/candidate.

FenderTL5 said:

I could be wrong but I understood the endorsement was in the episode not aired. The one that by not airing led to the claim(s) of being "cancelled"

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Oh, ok.

ArmyMatt said:

it was on the blog post that never got posted. it was AFR saying they would not post a blog article because it endorsed a political leader/candidate.

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Oh ok. I only heard his talk (YouTube video) on the 2020 candidates but didn’t tell anyone who to vote for.