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Lord have mercy!
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Refusing to be vaccinated against Covid-19 is a ’sin’ & anti-vaxxers must spend their life repenting
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Lord have mercy!
truefiction1
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Lord have mercy. I'm trying to become prepared by God's grace, asking for His help in this. Through the prayers of our holy fathers, O Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy on us.
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gurneyhalleck1
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My wife says this is just not grounded in reality. Herbs and honey and vitamin D do not protect against this nasty virus. This holistic backwoods hippie stuff isn’t grounded in research or real medicine. It’s wishful thinking. My wife has seen hordes of patients who tried this Herbalife mindset taking vitamins, and when they catch Covid, they’re on their knees like they’re in hell. Vaccination isn’t fool-proof, but it definitely goes far beyond taking the edge off, it limits the scope, damage, and extent to which the virus works in the body. Our local hospitals are showing vaxxed patients who were infected recovering in triple the time. The folks on ventilators are almost exclusively a hot mess from home remedies and Dr. Google. All day my wife hears one odd crackpot remedy after another. She comes home with the wildest stories. Patients are afraid of a simple protein spike, but they’ll risk crossing the Mexican border to get horse deworming nonsense, then OD on it. Playing doctor…..a risky proposition.
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gurneyhalleck1
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So Satan was behind the quarantine? And where is the peer-reviewed research that demonstrates vitamins and vegetables stop an insidious global pandemic? Most of these theories are the stuff of Facebook, Instagram, and social media. Herbal supplements aren’t even regulated and their efficacy has never been proven. I find it ironic and fascinating how people will lambast the vaccine for not being FDA-approved (even though it now is) but they will take scores of herbs that are completely unregulated! Around 20,000 Americans are rushed to the ER every year for overdoses or misuse of herbs and vitamins. Dosages are not standardized at all. Ginseng, garlic, cinnamon, echinacea, yohimbe bark, all sorts of herbs have no real agreed-upon dosage. We’re told by hippies and hardcore conservatives who live with conspiracy theories about doctor cabals how great cinnamon is. A blessed miracle! But the overwhelming amount of cinnamon supplements are cassia-based. Ceylon cinnamon is safe in modest doses, but almost all cinnamon in drug stores and on shelves at Costco or Rite Aid are cassia. It can be dangerous stuff.
A lot of folks take huge doses of vitamins that have long term negative effects on kidneys, liver, etc. it’s interesting that nobody is concerned about herbal and vitamin misuse, which is rampant, but the Covid vaccine is certain death?
A lot of folks take huge doses of vitamins that have long term negative effects on kidneys, liver, etc. it’s interesting that nobody is concerned about herbal and vitamin misuse, which is rampant, but the Covid vaccine is certain death?
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rusmeister
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Hi, Gurney!
I think your position reasonable. I understand it. I think your objections are not silly and should be considered.
But when you characterize the position of people who don’t agree with you, you are (certainly at the moment) going into straw-man mode, putting their position in terms that I think nearly all of them would disagree with and deny. None of them will say “I’m afraid of a simple protein spike!” None will say, “I want to cross the border to get horse de-wormer!”
There are individual considerations, like the effect or lack thereof of vitamins on the immune system and their effectiveness against covid. But there are also the effects of having one’s livelihood threatened by mandates, as seen above, and I think others do not see these things in isolation but as linked issues. And yes, some can certainly be wrong on some issues while being right on others. Almost no one is completely right on every issue, or completely wrong. So I think it is incumbent on us to bear in mind that the people we disagree with could actually be right about something, something that we ourselves (gasp!) might actually be mistaken about, even while they themselves are mistaken about something else, that we are, of course, right about.
Is Satan behind the quarantine? That actually seems like a reasonable proposition. I believe that Satan is real, and does seek to influence us and our affairs. If I ask, “What is the world pushing us to do?” then I ought to consider who this prince of this fallen world is, and all of the other trends promoting manifest evil, like abortion, inappropriate contentography, etc on all fronts. It turns out that the same powers are also demanding that we all be vaccinated, by force, if not persuasion. That ought to give the reasonable Christian pause, even if he rightly believes that proven vaccines have been a boon for mankind.
I don’t think anyone here is denying that people have been on ventilators in horrible situations. They just also see a TON of people who got it that that didn’t happen to. A person seeking to caricature your position might cast you as claiming that everyone is going to wind up on a ventilator gasping for breath, when you aren't in fact claiming that.
To cut it short, my suggestion would be to try to see one’s opponents as reasonably as we would like them to see us.
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truefiction1
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J&J, Moderna, and Pfizer all tested their Covid-19 product on cell lines derived from human persons murdered while in their mother's wombs. Some people are refusing it on those grounds (letting alone any other reasons they may have for feeling that there are things going on with regards to these vaccines that just seem very strange/suspicious to them) because it would violate their conscience to accept any benefit from products that were developed in this way. Such people are now being persecuted by the state on account of their morality (just so you know). If we think about it hard enough, we may eventually begin to see that our minds are working to oppose a truth that we already know in our hearts, but aren't able to live with right now because our love is for our lives in this world, and so we are too afraid to lose them. "Whoever loves his life will lose it, but whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life" (John 12:25). I think He spoke these words for us, particularly, in the situation we now find ourselves in, so as to help make the good choice in our present dilemma.
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chad kincham
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You mean there’s no moral obligation to be a guinea pig and taking an experimental vaccine that’s harming a lot of people already, which is being hushed-up?
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chad kincham
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Yet there's a wealth of statistics and information pointing to the vaccines correlating to a large rise in mortalities and injuries since just March of this year.
Not only that, but natural immunity is many times stronger than the vaccines:
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There is a great deal of medical research into the benefits of Thymoquinone (Nigella Sativa, or Black Cumin), and particularly on its impact on SARS-CoV-2
What sort of comorbidities are we talking about here? Heavy smokers? Obesity? Other serious health issues?
Clinical trials show the same for early treatment using any number of cheap, widely available medications.
With all due respect Gurney, when you talk about overdosing on Ivermectin you lose all credibility. It is one of the safest medications that exist and requires huge doses to produce adverse affects. That is grounded in research and real medicine (if you don't want to give your email, simply search for "Jacques Descotes MD, PharmD, PhD Ivermectin" to find the toxicology report published elsewhere). One of the few cases recorded where someone did overdose was a woman who tried to commit suicide by taking over 100 times the recommended dose. She was discharged from hospital after a few days with no enduring effects. If she had done the same thing with Paracetamol which is freely available over the counter, she would have destroyed her liver and have been wheeled out under a sheet. Reports of poison information hotlines being overwhelmed with calls has turned out to be people not reporting an overdose, but rather inquiring what the proper dose is since they can't get the information from their doctors, and then there is the infamous article published and now retracted by Rolling Stone about the hospital unable to treat gunshot victims because they were overwhelmed by patients who had overdosed on Ivermectin. It turned out to be completely made up.
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Eating healthy, exercise, sunshine, fresh air, not smoking , proper rest, and keeping a healthy weight all certainly contribute to keeping away sickness and I believe make a difference,(along with youth) but I agree with you, Gurney. I was taking loads of vitamins D and Zinc and don't smoke and hardly drink but just came down with a nasty cold this summer. I don't buy the conspiracy theories re:the vaccines. They are suspect to me. Too convenient. That said, I do understand the hesitancy especially in younger people. I have family and friends not taking the vaccine wanting to wait. I guess, the Vatican and other religious leaders ,including Conservative Evangelical leaders, etc, have said that in the case of this pandemic have said it is morally permissible in the light of a deadly pandemic to take the vaccines, in the case of remote cooperation with abortion especially in the case of the MRNA vaccines would be preferable. If a vaccine is approved that has no cooperation with fetal cells than I will take that if a booster is needed(Novavax?)
I think the Vatican and others have staked out the true pro-life position. Let people have a chance at prevention rather than trying to treat later.
Yes, Gurney, as you said upthread I feel very lonely. I'm not Orthodox but my church is divided. Our pastor and wife, both high risk, and about half have been vaccinated. Others have not. That is their choice. Re: Joe Rogan, I'm no doctor, but I wonder if it wasn't the monoclonal antibodies he took, and not the ivermectin that was what helped him recover. (plus steroids, etc.)
ETA: Of course prayer helps too.
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chad kincham
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The evil powers that be absolutely don’t want the fact known that there are two very effective, cheap, and safe treatments available, both are antiviral drugs, so it’s no surprise that they were tried on this virus.
Both are zinc ionophores, meaning they transport zinc across cell membranes, where it blocks replication of the virus.
Hydroxychloroquine with zinc, and Ivermectin with zinc, are used worldwide by doctors on their patients and on their own families, very successfully.
Dr. Zelenko in NY treated a thousand of his Jewish community COVID patients using hydroxychloroquine, and not one of them died or even needed hospitalization.
When he reported this, the response of Cuomo was to ban use of hydroxychloroquine for COVID, in NY..
As it turns out, the medical literature shows that the herb quercetin is also a zinc ionophore, so Dr. Zealenko and others started using the combination of quercetin, zinc, vitamin C which enhances the effect of quercetin, and selenium, with great success - thus look for them to try to take quercetin off the market next.
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We received the mandate now at my work - all of us must have the vaccine by end of November or face disciplinary action or termination.
While I chose to be vaccinated voluntarily, I do not agree with this mandate. It goes too far. We’ll see if it gets through the unions.
While I chose to be vaccinated voluntarily, I do not agree with this mandate. It goes too far. We’ll see if it gets through the unions.
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truefiction1
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The following is excerpted from an encyclical from the Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church in
America, published and distributed in 2001.
"We cannot, however, condone the manipulation of embryonic cells in any form for research purposes, including lines developed from destroyed embryos. Rather, we can only express dismay at the fact that the debate over this issue has avoided major considerations regarding the very meaning and value of human life.
President Bush’s proposal to use only the existing sixty lines of stem cells ( 2 ) because the embryos had already been destroyed (i.e., killed) falters on the precept enunciated by the apostle Paul in Romans 3:8, “We may not do evil so that good may come.” The very act of destroying those embryos is evil, and we may not profit from evil even to achieve a good and noble end."*
*emphasis of this statement is mine.
Holy Synod - Encyclicals - Embryonic Stem Cell Research in the Perspective of Orthodox Christianity
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Twenty years has passed and now, we're being told by a majority of Christian clerics/authorities, that a global pandemic is grounds for profiting from evil to achieve a good and noble end (i.e. to alleviate sickness, suffering, and save lives). Isn't this new declaration a glaring contradiction to what the Church leaders were trying to convince us of just 20 years ago, which is that it is better that we all give up our lives in this world and to bear great suffering than to not keep God's commandments? Wouldn't it be better to continue to insist that it is a sin, and the result of spiritual weakness, to receive these vaccines, whether to save your job, your life, or even the lives of others, than to allow people to be deceived, either by themselves or others, into thinking that there is no taking on of the guilt of the murdered child's blood if we knowingly take any worldly benefit from this evil which was done, and which continues to be done to this day?
I think that God is testing us to give us a chance to consider whether it is really Him that we love, or our lives in this world that we love. I have every perfect reason to believe this, because I have listened very carefully to His own words in the Holy Scriptures and it is clear that in every moment of our lives we must choose either Him or the world, or that we will either serve Him or Mammon, but not both. There is such great a distance between us and the Truth now; so much darkness that even the elect may be deceived if that was possible. When the holy elders/seers were speaking or writing about their Spirit informed visions of the last days, they were pointing to these very days of ours. When Christ told us about these days He let us know that most people will see the times as normal and ordinary, when in fact they are extraordinary, because of the extraordinary evil of the world in those last days.
Now, as ever, is the time for unbridled repentance and praying without ceasing. It is the time to wage violent spiritual warfare inside our hearts, keeping all of God's holy commandments in accordance with His Word, so that God will come and dwell in them, bringing His Light, so that we will be able to see clearly what is happening and why. Some of us may take such sayings as mine here as being far too serious; fanatical even. But have we been paying attention to Christ's own sayings lately, to see how these compare to what I've just said? Are we reading our Bibles and living what we read?
Soap box session is now ended. Carry on.
America, published and distributed in 2001.
"We cannot, however, condone the manipulation of embryonic cells in any form for research purposes, including lines developed from destroyed embryos. Rather, we can only express dismay at the fact that the debate over this issue has avoided major considerations regarding the very meaning and value of human life.
President Bush’s proposal to use only the existing sixty lines of stem cells ( 2 ) because the embryos had already been destroyed (i.e., killed) falters on the precept enunciated by the apostle Paul in Romans 3:8, “We may not do evil so that good may come.” The very act of destroying those embryos is evil, and we may not profit from evil even to achieve a good and noble end."*
*emphasis of this statement is mine.
Holy Synod - Encyclicals - Embryonic Stem Cell Research in the Perspective of Orthodox Christianity
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Twenty years has passed and now, we're being told by a majority of Christian clerics/authorities, that a global pandemic is grounds for profiting from evil to achieve a good and noble end (i.e. to alleviate sickness, suffering, and save lives). Isn't this new declaration a glaring contradiction to what the Church leaders were trying to convince us of just 20 years ago, which is that it is better that we all give up our lives in this world and to bear great suffering than to not keep God's commandments? Wouldn't it be better to continue to insist that it is a sin, and the result of spiritual weakness, to receive these vaccines, whether to save your job, your life, or even the lives of others, than to allow people to be deceived, either by themselves or others, into thinking that there is no taking on of the guilt of the murdered child's blood if we knowingly take any worldly benefit from this evil which was done, and which continues to be done to this day?
I think that God is testing us to give us a chance to consider whether it is really Him that we love, or our lives in this world that we love. I have every perfect reason to believe this, because I have listened very carefully to His own words in the Holy Scriptures and it is clear that in every moment of our lives we must choose either Him or the world, or that we will either serve Him or Mammon, but not both. There is such great a distance between us and the Truth now; so much darkness that even the elect may be deceived if that was possible. When the holy elders/seers were speaking or writing about their Spirit informed visions of the last days, they were pointing to these very days of ours. When Christ told us about these days He let us know that most people will see the times as normal and ordinary, when in fact they are extraordinary, because of the extraordinary evil of the world in those last days.
Now, as ever, is the time for unbridled repentance and praying without ceasing. It is the time to wage violent spiritual warfare inside our hearts, keeping all of God's holy commandments in accordance with His Word, so that God will come and dwell in them, bringing His Light, so that we will be able to see clearly what is happening and why. Some of us may take such sayings as mine here as being far too serious; fanatical even. But have we been paying attention to Christ's own sayings lately, to see how these compare to what I've just said? Are we reading our Bibles and living what we read?
Soap box session is now ended. Carry on.
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rusmeister
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The solution for us in the Church seems to me to be clear: To reject the idea that we know, as certainly as we know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the things the world teaches us via science. All those things, such as that water is H2O, gravity is a law, etc, we know ultimately by faith - faith in our senses, faith in authority, and so on. Jesus Christ we know, if we know Him at all, we know by choice - an act of will, even if everything else screams at us that He is (or is not) God. All other things, not taught by the Church, are therefore lesser knowledge, even if it is true and right. Thus, if a person believes in a flat Earth, we may not, and must not hold it against him as a sin that he should repent of. Foolishness if you like. A rejection of reason, if you like. But then again, we have Fools-for-Christ. If He confesses Jesus Christ with his mouth and strives to repent of what the Church has told us sin is, then we have nothing else to say or demand of him within the Church. Thus, the idea behind the title of this thread must be rejected. Likewise, we must not excoriate or demean those who believe that the virus was purely a natural accident, and the government measures and swiftly-developed vaccines to be beneficial, nor should we put down those who believe the opposite. We must accept that people disagree with us in the Church. That also means that even bishops should not impose mandates on masks or vaccines, or in any way close, limit, or prevent worship, even in an effort to stave off government interference. We must not do what is wrong, even if governments can and do. We are not at fault if they stop us. But if we stop each other, then we are certainly at fault.
Certainly, such an attitude puts an end to strife as believers cease trying to impose anything in this regard on others, and all take reasonable action to protect themselves if they believe they might unjustifiably expose themselves to harm. But even to that fear we ought to place a limit, and remember that we must not fear over much for our lives in this world, as the pagans do.
Certainly, such an attitude puts an end to strife as believers cease trying to impose anything in this regard on others, and all take reasonable action to protect themselves if they believe they might unjustifiably expose themselves to harm. But even to that fear we ought to place a limit, and remember that we must not fear over much for our lives in this world, as the pagans do.
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rusmeister
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Well, yeah, I was talking about us average slobs, not the poor b.../lucky ducks that Christ hits over the head with direct visitation. I wish it would happen to me, though I’d be scared witless. Pulling this “have faith” thing for decades is a rough haul.
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News from India.
In the small southern state of Kerala, Covid cases have been as high as in the U.S. whereas in the state of Uttar Pradesh which has a population 2/3 the size of the U.S. they have nearly eradicated Covid. The difference is that Uttar Pradesh was the first state in the country to introduce large-scale prophylactic and therapeutic use of Ivermectin.
India's Ivermectin Blackout - Part III: The Lesson of Kerala
The question is, why isn't this on the front page of every newspaper or the headline story on all the major news networks.
In the small southern state of Kerala, Covid cases have been as high as in the U.S. whereas in the state of Uttar Pradesh which has a population 2/3 the size of the U.S. they have nearly eradicated Covid. The difference is that Uttar Pradesh was the first state in the country to introduce large-scale prophylactic and therapeutic use of Ivermectin.
India's Ivermectin Blackout - Part III: The Lesson of Kerala
The question is, why isn't this on the front page of every newspaper or the headline story on all the major news networks.
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Do you know, with certainty, that Ivermectin was never tested using HEK293 fetal cells?
If you knew/know that it was, would your promotion of this drug change?
Aside: a local media celebrity Phil Valentine advocated this drug. He was taking it when he died from COVID-19 on August 21st.
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