Law vs Grace

Soyeong · Jun 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
In the New Covenant, the Holy Spirit has the role of leading us to love God with our whole being and our neighbor as ourselves (Matthew 22:37-41) which fulflls the Decalogue (Romans 13:8-10).

You choose to labor the Mosaic Decalogue,
I choose to labor Jesus' two higher and greater commandments which fulfill the Decalogue,
and much much more.

The Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to love God with our whole being and our neighbor as ourselves, so which is why it is fulfilled by the greatest two commandments. A sum is inclusive of all of its parts, so if someone's obedience to the greatest two commandments is not inclusive of God's other commandments, then they are not treating them as being the sum of the other commandments. God's 600+ commandments are inclusive of the greatest two commandments, so the greatest two can't be higher or greater than themselves. You say you choose to labor Jesus' two higher and greater commandments, but you have an insufficient understanding of what it means to correctly obey them, and thus you are following lower and and lesser commandments that don't completely fulfill the Mosaic Law.

Clare73 · Jun 13, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
I'm sorry Clair, I think you are the one who missed it.

Jesus said He did not come to destroy the law, you are teaching that
fulfilling the laws means no longer required, which in essence is destroy and is the exact opposite of what Jesus said.

Are you serious?

I'm teaching what the NT clearly states, according to the clear meaning of the words:

Fulfill = carry out (a task, duty, or role) as required, pledged, or expected;

Fulfill = bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).

To fulfill (carry out as required) Jesus' two commands is to fulfill (carry out as required) the Decalogue.

Clare73 · Jun 13, 2021

Soyeong said:
The Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to love God with our whole being and our neighbor as ourselves,

That's not in the Decalogue.
Are you adding more OT laws to your list for the NT?

Truth be known, your list of laws for the NT is a lot more than the Decalogue.

The Decalogue: "Thou shalt not murder. . .steal. . .bear false witness. . .covet thy neighbor's wife. . .covet thy neighbor's goods" does not tell me what to do to love my neighbor.

"As yourself" does tell me just that.

To adequately over Jesus' two commandments, you will have to fish many more commands from the OT than just one, and we'll be right back to where they were when Jesus walked the earth.

I choose to labor Jesus' two New Covenant commandments (Matthew 22:37-41) rather than labor the Decalogue.

SabbathBlessings · Jun 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Are you serious?

I'm teaching what the NT clearly states, according to the clear meaning of the words:

Fulfill = carry out (a task, duty, or role) as required, pledged, or expected;

Fulfill = bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).

To fulfill (carry out as required) Jesus' two commands is to fulfill (carry out as required) the Decalogue.

This is not what Jesus taught.

All is not fulfilled. Has Heaven and Earth passed? Is there still sin in the world?

Jesus does not give a pass on unrepentant sin after His sacrifice for us to overcome sin.

Jesus was asked how do you enter into life. This is the answer from our Savior:

Mathew 19: 16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and,‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Jesus quoted directly from God’s Ten. Note we have not all entered into eternal life yet when Jesus died for us. Jesus did not teach we gain eternal life by sinning before or after His death. You really should take a moment to listen what you’re teaching here because our actions have consequences according to Jesus.

Mathew 5: 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This is after Jesus said He did not come to destroy the laws.

Why do we have this verse in Revelations right before the second coming of our Savior if it doesn’t matter if we sin or not?

Revelations 22:15 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

In contrast to those who keep God’s commandments

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

You’re argument is with Jesus because no where in the Bible does it say the greatest commandments deletes the Ten or the other laws. I believe God when He said He changes not and we are told His Ten are eternal Psalms 89:34, Psalms 111:7,8 I believe this gospel and not the popular gospel taught now that we can do whatever we want without consequences. You are free to believe as you wish, but it doesn’t change what is written.

pescador · Jun 13, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
This is not what Jesus taught.

All is not fulfilled. Has Heaven and Earth passed? Is there still sin in the world?

Jesus does not give a pass on unrepentant sin after His sacrifice for us to overcome sin.

Jesus was asked how do you enter into life. This is the answer from our Savior:

Mathew 19: 16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”

17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”

Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and,‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Jesus quoted directly from God’s Ten. Note we have not all entered into eternal life yet when Jesus died for us. Jesus did not teach we gain eternal life by sinning before or after His death. You really should take a moment to listen what you’re teaching here because our actions have consequences according to Jesus.

Mathew 5: 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

This is after Jesus said He did not come to destroy the laws.

Why do we have this verse in Revelations right before the second coming of our Savior if it doesn’t matter if we sin or not?

Revelations 22:15 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

In contrast to those who keep God’s commandments

Revelations 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

You’re argument is with Jesus because no where in the Bible does it say the greatest commandments deletes the Ten or the other laws. I believe God when He said He changes not and we are told His Ten are eternal Psalms 89:34, Psalms 111:7,8 I believe this gospel and not the popular gospel thought now that we can do whatever we want without consequences. You are free to believe as you wish, but it doesn’t change what is written.

If you are obey OT laws then you are denying Christ.

Romans 3:21-22b, "But now apart from the law the righteousness of God (although it is attested by the law and the prophets) has been disclosed— namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. "

That's as clear as anything can be. Belief in Christ or obeying the OT law; it's a binary, either-or choice. You cannot obey OT law and call yourself a Christian. Period!

SabbathBlessings · Jun 13, 2021

pescador said:
If you are obey OT laws then you are denying Christ.

Romans 3:21-22b, "But now apart from the law the righteousness of God (although it is attested by the law and the prophets) has been disclosed— namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. "

That's as clear as anything can be. Belief in Christ or obeying the OT law; it's a binary, either-or choice. You cannot obey OT law and call yourself a Christian. Period!

You really need to quote all of Paul’s writings, not texts taken out of context. You need to keep reading in the passage you quoted- it can not get more clearer than this:

Romans 3: 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Here is more from Paul. He does not teach two different Gospels.

1 Corthians 7:19 but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

There is no where in the Bible where it states we are denying Christ by sinning. Sinning is not keeping the laws of God. 1 John 3:4 Jesus said if you love Me keep My commandments John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3 Exodus 20:6 We show love to God according to God by obeying, not disobeying.

Hope this helps.

pescador · Jun 13, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
You really need to quote all of Paul’s writings, not texts taken out of context. You need to keep reading in the passage you quoted- it can not get more clearer than this:

Romans 3: 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Here is more from Paul. He does not teach two different Gospels.

1 Corthians 7:19 but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

There is no where in the Bible where it states we are denying Christ by sinning. This is a false gospel. Jesus said if you love Me keep My commandments John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3. We show love to God according to God by obeying, not disobeying.

Hope this helps.

You really need to quote all of Paul’s writings, not texts taken out of context. Why don't you follow your own advice?

If you go a few verses above your quote from Romans, it clearly says, "For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law." Romans 3:28 Nothing could be clearer!

Romans 7:4-6, " So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code.

If you really think that Paul taught salvation through obedience to the OT law, you have missed the fundamental teaching of the New Covenant!

Roman 7:9-10, "And I was once alive apart from the law, but with the coming of the commandment sin became alive and I died. So I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life brought death"

I am really concerned that, not only have you missed the basics of the New Covenant, but that you are misleading others in the process. If obeying the OT law brings salvation then there is no need for Jesus Christ, Savior of the World.

SabbathBlessings · Jun 13, 2021

pescador said:
You really need to quote all of Paul’s writings, not texts taken out of context. Why don't you follow your own advice?

If you go a few verses above your quote from Romans, it clearly says, "For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law." Romans 3:28 Nothing could be clearer!

Romans 7:4-6, " So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code.

If you really think that Paul taught salvation through obedience to the OT law, you have missed the fundamental teaching of the New Covenant!

Roman 7:9-10, "And I was once alive apart from the law, but with the coming of the commandment sin became alive and I died. So I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life brought death"

I am really concerned that, not only have you missed the basics of the New Covenant, but that you are misleading others in the process. If obeying the OT law brings salvation then there is no need for Jesus Christ, Savior of the World.

I have never said we are saved by keeping the law. We are saved by God's grace, though our faith. Those who have faith also keep the commandments according to the bible.

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Revelations 14:12

Again, you need to keep reading Paul.
Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

There is nothing where you quoted where Paul says we do not need to keep God's commandments. In fact, Paul states the opposite.

but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Corinthians 7:19

Jesus quoted from God’s Ten Commandments and told us we need to keep them. Are you denying what Jesus taught from His own mouth? Mathew 19:17-19 taken from Exodus 20. In the New Covenant Gods laws are written on our hearts and we fulfill these laws when we obey because of our love for our Savior.

Soyeong · Jun 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
That's not in the Decalogue.
Are you adding more OT laws to your list for the NT?

Truth be known, your list of laws for the NT is a lot more than the Decalogue.

The Decalogue: "Thou shalt not murder. . .steal. . .bear false witness. . .covet thy neighbor's wife. . .covet thy neighbor's goods" does not tell me what to do to love my neighbor.

"As yourself" does tell me just that.

To adequately over Jesus' two commandments, you will have to fish many more commands from the OT than just one, and we'll be right back to where they were when Jesus walked the earth.

I choose to labor Jesus' two New Covenant commandments (Matthew 22:37-41) rather than labor the Decalogue.

The command to love our neighbor as ourselves is indeed not in the Decalogue, but it is part of the Mosaic Law. I've never limited what we should follow under the New Covenant to just the Decalogue, though the Decalogue should also be understood as being commands to do the reverse, such as the command against stealing should also be understood as the command to be generous. The greatest two commandments are inclusive of everything in the Decalogue as well as all of the commandments that God has given that are not part of the Decalogue. If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit idolatry, theft, adultery, murder, break the Sabbath, kidnap, rape, and so forth for all of the other laws that God has given. If you think that the greatest two commandments raise the bar on the Decalogue, then you should at the very least follow the Decalogue plus whatever else you think that the bar was raised to.

pescador · Jun 13, 2021

SabbathBlessings said:
I have never said we are saved by keeping the law. We are saved by God's grace, though our faith. Those who have faith also keep the commandments according to the bible.

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Revelations 14:12

Again, you need to keep reading Paul.
Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Romans 7:24 So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

There is nothing where you quoted where Paul says we do not need to keep God's commandments. In fact, Paul states the opposite.

but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Corinthians 7:19

Jesus quoted from God’s Ten Commandments and told us we need to keep them. Are you denying what Jesus taught from His own mouth? Mathew 19:17-19. Jesus quoted from Exodus 20. In the New Covenant Gods laws are written on our hearts and we fulfill these laws when we obey because of our love for our Savior.

Let me know how the slaughter of animals is going. After all, the OT law commands that animals be slaughtered as payment for violations of the Law.

You don't agree? Then why did you write, "we fulfill these laws when we obey because of our love for our Savior"? Do you really think that obeying the OT law is what God expects of Christians? You realize, don't you, that if you don't keep the OT law completely (which is impossible!) then you are guilty.

As long as you quote Romans, how did you miss this critical verse? "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." Romans 7:4

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4

I am done discussing this with you. I am sad that you have completely missed the fundamental principle of the New Covenant: Christians are dead to the Law but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

BobRyan · Jun 13, 2021

pescador said:
Where does Paul point out that Christianity is a "Sect of Judaism?

in the Bible.

Acts 24:14 But I confess this to you, that in accordance with the Way, which they call a sect, I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and is written in the Prophets;

Which is why in Acts 13 the jews call the Christians "brothers"
15 After the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the synagogue officials sent word to them, saying, “Brothers, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say it."

And Paul refers to non-Christian Jews as "brothers"
Acts 13:26
“Brothers, sons of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent.

And Stephen calls non-Christian Jews "brothers"
Acts 7:2
And Stephen said, “Listen to me, brothers and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran,"

BobRyan · Jun 13, 2021

pescador said:
I am done discussing this with you. I am sad that you have completely missed the fundamental principle of the New Covenant:

Under the NEW Covenant Christians have the Law of God - written on the heart Jer 31:31-34 - that Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers included the TEN.

D.L. Moody admits it.
C.H. Spurgeon Admits it
The Baptist Confession of Faith - sectn 19 admits it.
The Westminster Confession of Faith - sectn 19 admits it.

Paul admits it in Eph 6:1-2 where the 5th commandment is the first commandment with a promise in that unit of TEN

SabbathBlessings · Jun 13, 2021

pescador said:
Let me know how the slaughter of animals is going. After all, the OT law commands that animals be slaughtered as payment for violations of the Law.

You don't agree? Then why did you write, "we fulfill these laws when we obey because of our love for our Savior"? Do you really think that obeying the OT law is what God expects of Christians? You realize, don't you, that if you don't keep the OT law completely (which is impossible!) then you are guilty.

As long as you quote Romans, how did you miss this critical verse? "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God." Romans 7:4

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:1-4

I am done discussing this with you. I am sad that you have completely missed the fundamental principle of the New Covenant: Christians are dead to the Law but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

We are free from the condemnation of the law, the penalty (death) not the law itself as Jesus was our sacrifice and when we repent for our sins and turn from them, He is faithful to forgive us. God’s laws are perfect, just, our light, holy and pure. When we walk with the Spirit, we will keep God’s laws as they are written in our hearts in the New Covenant. Jeremiah 31:33

I am sorry friend we will have to agree to disagree.

Clare73 · Jun 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Are you serious?
I'm teaching what the NT clearly states, according to the clear meaning of the words:
Fulfill = carry out (a task, duty, or role) as required, pledged, or expected;
Fulfill = bring to completion or reality; achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).

To fulfill (carry out as required) Jesus' two commands is to fulfill (carry out as required) the Decalogue.

SabbathBlessings said:
This is not what Jesus taught.

See what Jesus taught Paul (1 Corinthians 11:23; Galatians 1:11-12; 1 Corinthians 15:3)
in Romans 13:8-10.

HIM · Jun 13, 2021

Our faith is nothing without the law, God’s word written in our hearts and minds. We must be changed through His Spirit to have saving Faith. And unless we are living according to the change on the heart and mind we are not what we profess

Clare73 · Jun 13, 2021

Soyeong said:
The command to love our neighbor as ourselves is indeed not in the Decalogue, but it is part of the Mosaic Law. I've never limited what we should follow under the New Covenant to just the Decalogue,

Oh, Wow!

You would have us engage that multitude of laws?

Erroneous on the face of it. . .time to study your NT again.

Soyeong · Jun 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
Oh, Wow!

You would have us engage that multitude of laws?

Erroneous on the face of it. . .time to study your NT again.

The New Covenant still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:33). Christ taught how to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, and Christianity is about following what Christ taught.

SabbathBlessings · Jun 13, 2021

Clare73 said:
See what Jesus taught Paul (1 Corinthians 11:23; Galatians 1:11-12; 1 Corinthians 15:3)
in Romans 13:8-10.

I do not disagree with any of the scriptures you posted by Paul. Also note, not one of the scriptures you posted tells us the law of God has been abolished we we no longer need to keep them. In contrast, Paul very clearly tells us what matters and that is keeping the commandments of God 1 Corinthians 7:19 same thing Jesus taught. There is only one Gospel and one Truth. Paul did not teach a different gospel in different chapters. Also, the Bible does not begin or end with Pauls writings and i know they are a favorite to quote when trying to deny God’s laws despite Paul making it perfectly clear that we should keep them.

Clare73 · Jun 13, 2021

Soyeong said:
The New Covenant still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:33). Christ taught how to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example, and
Christianity is about following what Christ taught.

And Christ taught Matthew 22:37-41, which fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10).

Fulfill = to carry out (a task, duty, or role) as required, pledged, or expected;

Fulfill = to bring to completion or reality; to achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).

To fulfill (carry out as required) Jesus' two commands is to fulfill (carry out as required) the Decalogue.

BobRyan · Jun 13, 2021

Soyeong said: ↑
The command to love our neighbor as ourselves is indeed not in the Decalogue, but it is part of the Mosaic Law. I've never limited what we should follow under the New Covenant to just the Decalogue,

Indeed the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant as known to Jeremiah and his readers in Jer 31:31-34 -- included things like "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 which is not in the TEN given in Ex 20.

So whether it is 1050 commands of the NT or the 650 commands in the OT - knowing which of them is included in the moral law of God written on the heart -- is important.

Clare73 said:
Oh, Wow!
You would have us engage that multitude of laws?
Erroneous on the face of it. . .time to study your NT again.

Its called "exegesis". the moral law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant as known to Jeremiah and his readers in Jer 31:31-34 -- included things like "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 which is not in the TEN given in Ex 20.

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