Paul Reveals the timing of Revelation 20

BABerean2 said:

That would depend on your definition of the word "consecutive".

I have already told you all of the seals were opened by Christ during the first century.

The trumpets and vials have not occurred yet.


The trumpets would appear to be consecutive to each other.
The seventh trumpet is certainly the last.


The vials would seem to be consecutive to the other vials in the text, but some of them could be poured out at the same time.
Since the seventh vial goes with the seventh angel, it would appear to be the last.


Rev_16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
Rev_16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
Rev_16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

Rev_16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

Rev_16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

Rev_16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.


I need to do a little more study of this topic.


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baberean2,

1. Seals opened by Christ? Yes
Seals opened by Christ in the First Century? Not literally, just in the vision.
How could have Christ opened all the seals in the First Century when you believe the 6th seal is when he is coming back to earth? That makes no sense.
If Christ opened all the seals in the First Century what is your basis to prove that?

2. You say the trumpets would appear to be consecutive. But you are convinced that the 7th trumpet is the last. Why?
Because of Revelation 11:15 which you think is the 2nd coming of Christ.
This can’t be because:
a). It covers a period of time 10:7 and includes all the 12 great events of 11:15-13:18.
b). It is an announcement in Heaven
but will not be fulfilled until 3.5 years later Revelation 19:11-21.
The casting out of Satan from Heaven is the mystery of God 10:7 under the 7th trumpet which makes it possible for God to take over the governments of the world at the time he has planned to do so at the second advent 19:11-21.
You explain to me how the mystery of God is the second coming when it is was known by all the Old Testament saints and the church as well?

3. Revelation 15:1; And I saw another sign in Heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the SEVEN LAST PLAGUES; for in them is filled up the Wrath of God.
This proves two things; the trumpets have been blown and are over with and the Wrath of the Lamb and the Wrath of God are two different things.
The Wrath of the Lamb covers the trumpets and the the Wrath of God covers the vials for it is on those who took the mark Revelation 16:2.
If you study right you’ll come to the same answer. Jerrykelso

BABerean2 said:

I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals,
Rev 6:1 And and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Christ opened the seal.

One of the four beasts told John to "Come and see".

John said "And I saw."

John then recorded what he saw in the Book of Revelation.

Your Bible says the same thing.

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baberean2,

1. So why do you think they might or might not be consecutive?

BABerean2 said:

Some of the visions of Revelation are different versions of the same event.


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baberean2,

Opinion. You can’t prove that by context. Jerrykelso

BABerean2 said:

Anyone who can read knows Christ comes as a thief in chapter 16, and also in chapter 19.

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baberean2,

1. We are talking about the seals and trumpets with the vials.
Jerrykelso

BABerean2 said:

Some of the visions of Revelation are different versions of the same event.

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There are two distinct events: Christ ministry on earth in the second coming and Satan’s 42 months. Can you rightly divide God's Word and keep them distinct from each other? They do not happen simultaneously. And The Lamb and God on the throne happen first.

BABerean2 said:

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

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You literal claim Christ comes back 6 different times? Your division is not the same event. Your division turns Revelation into a 6 event return. You keep saying he comes, then returns, then returns again, and again, and again. Revelation 20 is not a return. A "return" is not even mentioned. Fire from God in heaven comes down. Christ reigns in Jerusalem the whole chapter period which is clearly stated as 1000 years. Christ comes at the Battle of Armageddon, and is on earth for 1000 years, and never leaves the earth. The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to be with the everlasting kingdom already on earth. That is rightly dividing God's Word. Not teaching a 7 part "snapshot" devotional, that is just human opinion.

BABerean2 said:

No.

I am saying there is more than one vision of Christ's Second Coming found in the Book of Revelation.

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That is why Jesus comes and stays until all humanity is dead.

But Jesus does not stay for Satan's 42 months. If there is no Satan’s 42 months, then Jesus Christ sets up the Millennial reign on earth. Otherwise Jesus waits the 42 months, comes back, and kills all humanity at the battle of Armageddon. Can you prove Jesus Christ is going to sit with Satan in Jerusalem for 42 months?

BABerean2 said:

Anyone who can read knows Christ comes as a thief in chapter 16, and He also comes in chapter 19.

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baberean2,

1. You cannot prove recapitulation with the seals, trumpets and vials. Jerrykelso

BABerean2 said:

Are you saying there is no relationship between the seventh trumpet and the seventh vial?


Rev_10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev_11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev_16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

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baberean2,

1. Being related doesn’t mean fulfillment at the same time.
This is one reason why you don’t rightly divide the word.

2. Let’s get the context right.
The seals, trumpets, and vials are consecutive.
The seals start the tribulation which is future when the Antichrist will start coming to power.
Just because there are like signs in the 6th seal and the second advent is no proof the two events are the same.
Those classes of people are recognizing that the Wrath of the Lamb is starting.
The Wrath of the Lamb are the trumpet judgements for the Lamb is in Heaven and never on earth.

2. Revelation 7:1: And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth etc. to the sealing of the 144,000 to protect them from the trumpet judgements 9:4.
This shows the seals are consecutive before the trumpets are sounded.
The silence in Heaven is not the Second Coming. It is a Yom Kippur service vs. 2-6 where the angels prepare to sound.

3. But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished.
This is longer than I one day, so it is not the Second Coming. All knew the Second Coming and this is a scriptural fact.
The mystery of God is the accuser of the Brethren (Satan) kicked out of Heaven Revelation 12:7-10. The great mystery of why God has allowed the devil to continue to operate against him for so long without definite action to stop him is finally answered. Delay will be no longer. The courts of Heaven are closed to Satan forever.

4. Revelation 11:15 is the announcement in Heaven of the Lord taking over the kingdoms of this world which will take place at the Second Coming 3.5 years later (19:11-21).

5. Revelation 15:1: And I saw another sign in Heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the SEVEN LAST PLAGUES; for in them is filled up the WRATH OF GOD!!
Revelation 16:1; the Seven Angels are told that go their ways and pour out the VIALS OF THE WRATH OF GOD UPON THE EARTH!!!!!!!The Wrath Of God are the vials specifically on the beast kingdom worshippers Revelation 16:2.
The Wrath of the Lamb and of God are two different things according to context of the scriptures.

6. Without full context you only have half truths. This is dishonest exegesis. Jerrykelso

BABerean2 said:

John Nelson Darby claimed the Book of Matthew was written to the Jews, by ignoring the Great Commission to the Church at the end of the book.
That should be called wrongly dividing the Word.


A Dispensationalist talking about dishonest exegesis is like a crack addict lecturing someone on the dangers of drug use.


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baberean2,

1. Once again you have no rebuttal.
You ought to be ashamed of using such an insult against a dispensationalist comparing them to a crack addict.
You need to retract that statement and repent.

2. A person doesn’t have to know Dispensationalism to learn the truth.
Common sense tells you how the book unfolds and should be rendered.
The seal, trumpets and vials are consecutive as I’ve already shown. You can’t prove that wrong.
That is why you are upset because you can’t match up the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial happening at the same time.
The parentheticals work in and around them in most cases.
The First parenthetical is the 144,000. Why Because it interrupts the main thought of the context of the seals.
And after these things shows they happen immediately after the 6th seal.
The reason the great multitude is the next parenthetical is because it is a company of redeemed like the 144,000 who gets to Heaven, except they are martyrs and the 144,000 are not for they are protected through the trumpet judgements and then raptured afterwards Revelation 14:1-5.
It couldn’t be happening between the 6 th and seventh seal. Why? Because 6:9-11 shows the First martyrs and they have to wait for their brethren to die and the Antichrist hasn’t even started his kingdom yet.
Another example of parentheticals are the Mystery Babylon Revelation 17 and literal Babylon Revelation 18.
The mystery Babylon is a religious system and is only present in the First 3.5 years and then are killed off.
Literal Babylon is the real city whether you think it is Rome or Babylon and it is there through the whole tribulation until it is destroyed at Armageddon Revelation 16 & 18.

3. Study the parentheticals and why they are put where they are. And study Dispensational stewardship of the Covenants.
The Jewish nation has the Mosaic (Old)
Covenant and sometimes they were good stewards and sometimes not.
The scriptures validate their stewardship of the Covenant.
You are mad because they weren’t good stewards of the Covenant and you think their eternal promises in the Covenant should belong to the church.
I understand that Jew and Gentile are in one body alike so you must believe that God has completed harmony with all people.
Nothing wrong with the thought but it doesn’t agree with his eternal promises in their Covenant back then that will happen.
For anyone to think otherwise is anti-Semitic and that God is biased towards one nation of people.
We have a different calling than the nation of Israel and that is why they are enemies of the gospel right now but are elect for the Father’s sake.
God wants us to be in harmony and not Jealous of another company of people he has promised something different to.

4. You lay a false claim that Dispensationalism represents a parenthesis of the church or a plan b like he had the change his mind or made an accident.
Parenthesis is used in a different context and that is a different age of which the spiritual Kingdom of God and the fruits thereof were given to another people who turned out be the church Matthew 21:43; Romans 11:11.
Plan B could be used but not in your definition of an accident or having to change his mind because the church was predestined Ephesians 1:3.
You have been given the truth about these false accusations against Dispensationalism and you need to believe the biblical truth that back it up.
Anymore false accusations of that nature will not be ignorant anymore but flat out lies. Jerrykelso

jerry kelso said:

17th century American Puritans Increase and Cotton Mather, Robert Maton, Nathaniel Holmes, John Browne, Thomas Vincent, Henry Danvers, Wm. Sherwin, Phillip Doddridge, and John Gill.
1828 Matthew Henry, Edward Irving.
Pretribulationism traces its roots as far back as Shepherd of Hermas A.D. 140.
Some apocalyptic books such as Apocalypse of Elijah, Pseudo-Ephaeum and the history of Brother Delano and popularized by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren in 1830.

2. Now I know this won’t satisfy you cause you probably don’t see them as being part of the true historical church which was the Catholic Church and anyone who believed their way.
These were recognized apologists though you will probably disagree with except the Shepherd of Hermas.
It doesn’t matter, you need to learn to rightly divide the word on your own. Jerry kelso

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Instead of listing men who never knew anything about Pretrib, can you give hard quotes?