Contrary to what Premil teaches: Revelation 20 does not locate Jesus on earth!

Spiritual Jew · Apr 23, 2021

friend of said:
You're saying it can't happen because God changed the covenant. The Jews do not abide by God's new covenant. That's why they do what they do in reinstating the old sacrifices. I'm not saying what they do is correct according to the new covenant. Not that hard to figure out.

Where does scripture say anything about unbelieving Jews reinstating animal sacrifices?

sovereigngrace · Apr 23, 2021

Timtofly said:
Amil place it even lower and do call the Lord's Day, that should be set apart and holy, as current sin infested wickedness.

We are already over 6000 years of history. Look around and you will see sin infested wickedness everywhere.

Timtofly · Apr 23, 2021

TribulationSigns said:
Yeah, it is because in Premil doctrine, Satan will be loosened at the end of the physical millennial kingdom after 1,000 literal years where he will deceive people to revoult against Christ AGAIN. That does not make biblical sense at all!

Indeed. Premil's doctrine is not a biblical doctrine.

It is not a doctrine. It is God's Word. Satan deceiving the world is not a doctrine is it? By that I mean, it happens whether it is a doctrine or not. It was a thing before someone decided to make doctrines out of God's Word. Satan did not just up and start deceiving the world after some church member made it an official doctrine. Doctrine does not define reality. It teaches reality as fact, and can be as wrong as science in many areas of reality. It is only a teaching tool. The church bound us with evolution. God will loose that binding effect at the Second Coming. That is not a theory.

Spiritual Jew · Apr 23, 2021

DavidPT said:
During the millennium it will basically be the same. Those that end up rebelling after the millennium will be in good standing with God during the millennium, since we don't see God destroying anyone during the millennium. That only happens after the millennium when satan manages to deceive them yet again, then they join satan's forces and launch one final rebellion that ends up as a failed attempt for them. It is not until after all of that, followed by the great white throne judgment, does the end come meant in 1 Corinthians 15:24 occur. IOW, there is a gap between when He comes back to the earth and when the end meant in 1 Corinthians 15:24 occurs. Just because some of you can't see the gap doesn't mean it's not there. Some of you can't even see a gap in the 70 weeks, yet it's there. So it shouldn't be a surprise to some of us that some of you are unable to see the gap I'm referring to in 1 Corinthians 15:24.

If there is a gap between the fulfillment of 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 and 1 Corinthians 15:24 then why did Paul not even hint at such a thing?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

We can use scripture to interpret scripture in order to determining the timing of 1 Cor 15:24.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

I assume you would agree that He is coming at the end of the world (age)? What will happen at the end of the world (age)?

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Notice in 1 Corinthians 15:24 that when the end comes then Christ will deliver the kingdom to God the Father. And then notice in Matthew 13:40-43 that at the end of the world/age "then shall the righteous shine for as the sun in the kindgom of their Father". It is referred to as "the kingdom of their Father" at that point which shows that Christ will have delivered the kingdom to the Father at that point. This places the timing of "the end" when He delivers the kingdom to the Father at His coming at the end of the world/age and not 1000+ years later.

Timtofly · Apr 23, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
This is another major difference between Premillennialism and Amillennialism. Amillennialism believes that Jesus was the final sacrifice for sin. There will therefore be no more sacrifices for sin in the future. Premillennialism reintroduces the old covenant arrangement in full and has another 1000 years of the slaughtering of innocent animals.

Jesus was the final, ultimate, one time for all time, Atonement before Creation. That was before Adam, before Adam disobeyed. That did not stop God from giving the Law to Moses. The Atonement does not prevent God from creating the heavens and earth after the fact. Are you telling God how to run things?

Spiritual Jew · Apr 23, 2021

DavidPT said:
Assuming they represent something, thus are not meaning in the literal sense, do you even know what they represent? Kind of hard to tell when you are asking questions like that of others, expecting others to know what they represent, while at the same you don't even bother telling us what they are supposed to represent and why they are supposed to represent what you think they are supposed to represent. Actually though, you might be doing some of us a favor by not telling us what they are supposed to represent, since it would likely be making obvious nonsense out of the text rather than good sense out of it instead.

For example, you indicated the living water in Zechariah 14 is the HOLY SPIRIT. Let's see if that makes sense of the text, or if it makes nonsense of the text.

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that the Holy Spirit shall go out from Jerusalem; half of the Holy Spirit toward the former sea, and half of Holy Spirit toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

And that makes sense of the text exactly how??? Since when does the Holy Spirit involve 2 halves? Don't even bother trying to answer any of this. I don't even want to know. Engaging in obvious nonsense like this is a complete waste of time IMO. Nothing that you are going to say will ever convince me that you are understanding Zechariah 14:8 correctly, when you are already proposing what you are above.

Do you think that the Holy Spirit can't be referred to symbolically or something? That's how you're coming across here.

Look at this:

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

In this passage Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit symbolically as "rivers of living water". But, for some reason, Zechariah 14:8 can't refer to the Holy Spirit symbolically as well?

TribulationSigns · Apr 23, 2021

DavidPT said:
Assuming they represent something, thus are not meaning in the literal sense, do you even know what they represent? Kind of hard to tell when you are asking questions like that of others, expecting others to know what they represent, while at the same you don't even bother telling us what they are supposed to represent and why they are supposed to represent what you think they are supposed to represent.

I already knew what the seas represent. I asked because I want to challenge you to see if you will be able to show us how to allow Scripture to compare itself to find God's definition for seas.

Look at the example of how Sovereign Grace has done with his homework.

For example, you indicated the living water in Zechariah 14 is the HOLY SPIRIT. Let's see if that makes sense of the text, or if it makes nonsense of the text.

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that the Holy Spirit shall go out from Jerusalem; half of the Holy Spirit toward the former sea, and half of Holy Spirit toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

And that makes sense of the text exactly how??? Since when does the Holy Spirit involve 2 halves? Don't even bother trying to answer any of this. I don't even want to know. Engaging in obvious nonsense like this is a complete waste of time IMO. Nothing that you are going to say will ever convince me that you are understanding Zechariah 14:8 correctly, when you are already proposing what you are above.

In order to find God's interpretation, we all need to compare Scripture to Scripture to find what he actually talks about in Zechariah 14. Now let find out what Zechariah 14:8 really talks about:

Zechariah 14:8

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be."

Christ "IS" that living waters that went out from Jerusalem when he went and died on the Cross on that day! This is talking about Him going forth to Jews and Gentiles. The former and hinder pertains to the "first and the last" that Christ references in His sermons, as it relates to salvation first to the Jews and also to the Gentiles. The Hebrew word "former" illustrating the Jews being the former or first of the sea, and the word "hinder" being those who come after or behind. In other words, the last. The living waters now go out to all the world, Jew and Gentile, and this seems also to be illustrated in the context of the verse that follows.

Zechariah 14:9

"And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one."

There is no longer the division of Jew and Gentile, but we are all Israel, one body of Christ and one Lord, the Saviour of all the earth (Elect out among the nations). Those who were before not His people, will now be His people.

Ephesians 4:4-6

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Zechariah 14:8 is primarily addressing "that" mystery that is revealed here, namely, that salvation is going forth to all the world, and is not primarily for the Jews only or national Israel! And the kingdom of Israel is extended to the whole world so that both the former and latter sea is nourished by these living waters that go out from Jerusalem.

There are many people "without spiritual discernment" that insist that Zechariah 14:8 is talking about some physical river waters flowing into the dead sea in the East or the Mediterranean Sea in the West. They teach it because it sounds more exciting or appealing rather than actually compare Scripture with Scripture. We need to find God's definition of the sea and living water in HIS WORD, not National Geography.

TribulationSigns · Apr 23, 2021

Timtofly said:
I have read God's Word.

How was Satan bound in eternal darkness for thousands of years, yet roam the earth throughout biblical history?

So you claimed that you do read God's Word. Okay, then show us in the Scripture that Satan bound in "eternal darkness" for "thousands of years?" Because we don't teach that.

TribulationSigns · Apr 23, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Do you think that the Holy Spirit can't be referred to symbolically or something? That's how you're coming across here.

Look at this:

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

In this passage Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit symbolically as "rivers of living water". But, for some reason, Zechariah 14:8 can't refer to the Holy Spirit symbolically as well?

Exactly, it is not a physical river with H20 (water). It is symbolically the Spirit of God. Therefore, Zechariah 14:8 is talking about Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) going forth to both the Jews (former sea, first) and the Gentiles (hinder sea, last) from the time of the CROSS in Jerusalem which is symbolically the body of Christ, not physical city.

sovereigngrace · Apr 23, 2021

keras said:
Are these prophesies 'plain wrong'?
Psalms 51:18-19 Now Lord, show Your favor to Zion and rebuild Jerusalem. Then You will delight in the appointed sacrifices, young bulls will be offered in Your altar.

Jeremiah 17:24-26 Now, if you obey the Lord’s Commandments, then a ruler will again occupy David’s throne and Jerusalem will be inhabited forever. Then people will come bringing whole offerings, sacrifices as thank offerings to the Lord’s House.

Jeremiah 33:14-18 The days are coming when I shall bless Judah and Israel…….there will always be a Levitical Priest to burn the grain and other offerings every day.

Ezekiel 45:13-25 The details of and the dates for making all the sacrifices and offerings on the Altar of the new Temple.

Zechariah 14:21…all who come to make sacrifice will use the holy pots in Jerusalem to boil the flesh of the sacrifice……

Isaiah 60:6-7 Livestock in droves will be in the Land to serve your needs, as acceptable offerings on My Altar and I will adorn My glorious Temple.

The context of these scriptures proves that all this will be for the last days’ period before the Return of Jesus. What will happen during the Millennium isn’t told to us, although there will be priest’s then. Revelation 20:6
But we know there will be no Temple in Eternity. Revelation 21:22

This reinforces what we Amils have been saying about the belief-system of Premils for years: they explain away the NT by their mistaken opinion of the OT. It is as if Jesus never came 2000 years ago. It is as the cross did not happen. It is as if Jesus did not say: "it is finished." It is as if we are awaiting for the new covenant to be made. What you miss is: Jesus fulfilled every demand of the Law. He introduced the new covenant in His blood. The old is banished forever. There is no more offering for sin.

Premils are so enthralled with the old covenant arrangement that they cannot seem to accept the removal of the shadow, type and figure. Amillennialism interprets the Old by the New. This is the correct and only way to comprehend the detail of the OT. Amillennialists believe Jesus Christ was the final sacrifice for sin.

It is as if Christ’s perfect life, atoning death and glorious resurrection are not enough for Premils; not perfect enough, not satisfactory enough, and not final enough.

The reality is: the shedding of His blood satisfied the Father and reconciled the sinner to God, securing eternal redemption (1 John 1:7). By attempting to reintroduce animal sacrifices, Premillennialism does great injury to the work of Christ on the Cross, undoes the once all-sufficient sacrifice that Christ made for sin, undermines the eternal nature of the atonement, and disregards numerous New Testament passages that conclusively prove that Christ’s blood sacrifice was final and eternal. The Old Testament system that employed animal sacrifices was nailed to the Cross and blotted out according to the New Testament.

Colossians 2:14 plainly and unambiguously declares, that Christ's atonement resulted in the “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

The Greek word for “Blotting out” here is exaleiphō (eks-ä-lā'-fō) meaning: ‘to wipe off, wipe away, to obliterate, erase, wipe out, blot out’

These old covenant ordinances (rites and rituals) pertaining to the ceremonial law were obliterated at the cross.

For those that still anticipate the renaissance of the old abolished ordinances we need to ask: When did (or will) the “blotting out the handwriting of ordinances” occur? From this passage it is clear, Christ “took it out of the way” by “nailing it to his cross.” These ordinances embraced the old covenant civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical law. They were finished at the cross.

Colossians 2:16-17 tells us: “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

The Greek word translated “holyday” here is heorte meaning feast or festival. Of 27 mentions of this word in the normally precise KJV, it is interpreted “feast” in all of them apart from here.

New American Standard interprets: “Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.”

The Living Bible says, “So don't let anyone criticize you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating Jewish holidays and feasts or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these were only temporary rules that ended when Christ came. They were only shadows of the real thing-of Christ himself.”

Paul is saying here that the old covenant feasts and festivals simply served as types and shadows of things that were to come. They looked forward to the new covenant arrangement and the reality and substance in Christ. The Jews of Ezekiel’s day and Zechariah’s day would never have understood this.

Colossians 2:20-22 finally sums up the sums up the biblical position today: “Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?”

This is not talking about the moral law, it is talking about the ceremonial law. It is a redundant system. Christ took the whole old system away. The old Mosaic ceremonial law is completely gone. It is useless.

Christianity took us away from the old Mosaic ceremonial law completely. Those who argue for a return to the old system fail to see that it has been rendered obsolete through the new covenant.

Hebrews 7:18-19 makes clear: “For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.”

This word “disannulling” is taken from the Greek word athetesis meaning cancellation.

The phrase “weakness and unprofitableness” used here to describe the old abolished system actually reads asthenes kai anopheles literally meaning: feeble and impotent useless and unprofitable.

It is hard to believe that Christian scholars would promote the return, on the new earth of all places, of such a hopeless discarded arrangement.

When Christ made that final sacrifice for sin He satisfied all God’s holy demands for sin and uncleanness and thus Christ became the final substitution for the sinner. Ephesians 2:13-15 also says, “now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us]; Having abolished (katargeo) in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.”

The Greek word katargeo is used here to describe the fate that befell the old Mosaic ritualistic system relating to “the law of commandments contained in ordinances.” This word means: ‘bring to nought’, ‘none effect’, and ‘abolish’. Jesus did away with any need or reliance upon the outward keeping of the old covenant religious system. The cross fulfilled forever God’s demand for a perfect once-for-all sacrifice.

Hebrews 7:16 tells us that Christ “is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.”

The whole context here is the removal and the replacement of the old covenant priesthood, the writer of the Hebrews presents Christ as heavens eternal replacement. What is more, we can see that this priesthood cannot pass from one to another, it is not transferrable. No other can appropriate this title or share in the function of the position, Christ alone holds that sacred high priestly office. Christ is the only real and perfect high priest today. He is the ultimate and final High Priest of the redeemed of God.

The animal sacrifices were done away forever. Hebrews 10:4-12 explains, “For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.”

When Jesus died on the cross He instituted the new covenant which allowed the believer to access God directly. No longer would the bulk of God’s people be excluded from the presence of the Lord by a veil. No longer did they need an earthly priest to represent them before God. They were now free to approach Him personally by simple faith. Christ removed the partition between God and His people when He laid down His life for our sins. He became man’s final high priest.

The curtain between the believer and God was eternally torn apart. The separation was removed. Matthew 27:51 says, “And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent.” This veil was representative of Christ’s physical body. It was torn apart in order to secure eternal redemption for God’s people. It is only through Jesus that we can approach God. The way to salvation can only be found in Jesus.

For what purpose would we need a third temple? Christ is the realization of the shadow, symbol, and type. He is the ultimate fulfillment. He is the eternal temple. Is He not enough? Is He not acceptable enough? Do you need something greater?

sovereigngrace · Apr 23, 2021

Timtofly said:
I have read God's Word.

How was Satan bound in eternal darkness for thousands of years, yet roam the earth throughout biblical history?

Your defeatist theology is an awful slight on Christ and what He achieved through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection.

With the coming of Christ to this earth came the introduction of His spiritual kingdom. With the introduction of His spiritual kingdom came a direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth. With the direct challenge to the power and influence of Satan on planet earth came the spiritual empowerment of the people of God to confront and overcome Satan and his demonic angels.

Wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is bound!!!

Christ said, to the disciples in Luke 10:19, “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

When you are tuned into heaven, when you are connected to heaven, all things are possible. God is big and the devil is small. The light is shining and the darkness is dispelled. Peace prevails and the power ensues.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

God has entrusted power and authority to the Church in this age that the devil cannot in any way deal with or thwart. As Christians the highest authority existing on this earth has been delegated to us. Jesus Christ has commissioned us to enforce His will on this corrupt planet. He has filled us with His power. He has anointed us with His authority. We possess divine authority. That is why we come in His name.

Darkness cannot handle the light. When light shines, darkness must go. As the Church of Jesus Christ spreads the good news (or light of the Gospel) throughout the world the devil is exposed for who he is: he is stupid, he is a fool, he is a loser.

We have power over Satan since the cross! If you are walking in obedience, the devil has no authority over you. But you have much power over him. Think about this we have power over Satan and all his demons! He cannot do as he pleases against the people of God. There is much Scripture that says we have power over him.

Some Christians respond, but what about 1 Peter 5:8? Let us read it: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.” The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

The true Church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

Do you cause Satan sleepless nights or does he cause you sleepless nights?

1 John 2:14: "I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one."

By resisting Satan, standing upon the Word of God, and staying steadfast, we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of its evil designs.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But as we found out last week: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power [dunamis] and authority [exousia] over all devils, and to cure diseases."

· Authority = exousia
· Power = dunamis

Authority is the channel through which power operates. Authority is the legal authorization to function. Power has to do with the outworking of that authority.

According to this Satan should not have power and authority over you, but you should have power and authority over him.

1 John 5:18: “he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Do you believe that? Why? You have authority over him. He has none over you.

It is not just that he cannot stop us or hurt us as we operate in the Spirit but it is that we can actually hurt him. That is the good news of New Testament age we live in.

Timtofly · Apr 23, 2021

TribulationSigns said:
Answer my question. Is your doctrine based on what the Jews think or what the Word of God declares? Not that hard to figure out to answer, doesn't it?

Is God bound by your interpretation or can God do what ever God desires? Those Scriptures can also be on literal earth, where literal things are planted and literally eaten. Every thing in Scripture does not exist in spiritual thought exercises alone. Jesus Christ literally came to earth and died on a literal Cross. That was not just some OT figurative spiritual thought exercise. The Jews claim it is still future and was never materialized, just like you are now claiming the future is only spiritual and never materialized.

No one is denying the church, even prior to Moses could only be redeemed by the Atonement. The Law did not save nor create a church one bit. None of those sacrifices saved a single soul. If reinstated, it will still not save a single soul nor add to the church. The church never had anything to do with the Law and animal sacrifices. Why are you trying to foist the Law onto the church at any period of time?

sovereigngrace · Apr 23, 2021

Timtofly said:
Is God bound by your interpretation or can God do what ever God desires? Those Scriptures can also be on literal earth, where literal things are planted and literally eaten. Every thing in Scripture does not exist in spiritual thought exercises alone. Jesus Christ literally came to earth and died on a literal Cross. That was not just some OT figurative spiritual thought exercise. The Jews claim it is still future and was never materialized, just like you are now claiming the future is only spiritual and never materialized.

No one is denying the church, even prior to Moses could only be redeemed by the Atonement. The Law did not save nor create a church one bit. None of those sacrifices saved a single soul. If reinstated, it will still not save a single soul nor add to the church. The church never had anything to do with the Law and animal sacrifices. Why are you trying to foist the Law onto the church at any period of time?

What is glaring is that you (or any Premil) have yet to show Christ on earth during some alleged future millennium. That is because it is not in Scripture. It will never happen. It only exists in the Premil teaching manuals.

Brian Mcnamee · Apr 23, 2021

TribulationSigns said:
Exactly, it is not a physical river with H20 (water). It is symbolically the Spirit of God. Therefore, Zechariah 14:8 is talking about Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) going forth to both the Jews (former sea, first) and the Gentiles (hinder sea, last) from the time of the CROSS in Jerusalem which is symbolically the body of Christ, not physical city.

Hi your allegorical interpretation falls apart when you take the context of the whole chapter rather than isolate the verses about the living water.

1st the day the mountain splits is a day when Jerusalem is being overrun and half the city it taken. Now the LORD comes on this same day which is also referred to as it being dark in the day and light at night and these who are invading are melted at this same time. Now as the LORD descends and the Mountain splits this is the moment the LORD is king over all the earth. This event does not just create this river but it also creates a new plain with again specific boundaries.

the rest of the passage again treats all these elements as happening in a literal day with events coming after this day presented as a real transition into the kingdom.

10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem[fn] shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts.[fn] Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

This is why I keep pointing to the prophecy in Luke one of a Jesus causing a great deliverance in Israel and from that time they are safe and now a holy people when Jesus takes the throne of David. This is exactly what happens in Zech 14. the LORD is king over all the earth and they will say the LORD is one. This is Israel confessing Jesus is LORD.

sovereigngrace · Apr 23, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi your allegorical interpretation falls apart when you take the context of the whole chapter rather than isolate the verses about the living water.

1st the day the mountain splits is a day when Jerusalem is being overrun and half the city it taken. Now the LORD comes on this same day which is also referred to as it being dark in the day and light at night and these who are invading are melted at this same time. Now as the LORD descends and the Mountain splits this is the moment the LORD is king over all the earth. This event does not just create this river but it also creates a new plain with again specific boundaries.

the rest of the passage again treats all these elements as happening in a literal day with events coming after this day presented as a real transition into the kingdom.

10 All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem[fn] shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses.
11 The people shall dwell in it;
And no longer shall there be utter destruction,
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:
Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.
13 It shall come to pass in that day
That a great panic from the LORD will be among them.
Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor,
And raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand;
14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance.
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21 Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts.[fn] Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

This is why I keep pointing to the prophecy in Luke one of a Jesus causing a great deliverance in Israel and from that time they are safe and now a holy people when Jesus takes the throne of David. This is exactly what happens in Zech 14. the LORD is king over all the earth and they will say the LORD is one. This is Israel confessing Jesus is LORD.

I see you have a habit of avoiding simple questions that disprove your position, but are quick to make demands of others that are relaying strong biblical truth.

Please address the following avoided questions:

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on a millennial earth?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

If you cannot address these will you address the following? No Premil will address this. I can only take this as an admission that there is no connection between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, and that Premil is extra-biblical.

Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?

Brian Mcnamee · Apr 23, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Do you think that the Holy Spirit can't be referred to symbolically or something? That's how you're coming across here.

Look at this:

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

In this passage Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit symbolically as "rivers of living water". But, for some reason, Zechariah 14:8 can't refer to the Holy Spirit symbolically as well?

Hi Jer the LORD or notes that they have forsaken Him the fountain of living water have dug cisterns that can hold no water. Again symbolic. But in Eze 47 7 When I returned, there, along the bank of the river, were very many trees on one side and the other. 8 Then he said to me: “This water flows toward the eastern region, goes down into the valley, and enters the sea. When it reaches the sea, its waters are healed. 9 And it shall be that every living thing that moves, wherever the rivers go, will live. There will be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters go there; for they will be healed, and everything will live wherever the river goes. 10 It shall be that fishermen will stand by it from En Gedi to En Eglaim; they will be places for spreading their nets. Their fish will be of the same kinds as the fish of the Great Sea, exceedingly many. 11 But its swamps and marshes will not be healed; they will be given over to salt. 12 Along the bank of the river, on this side and that, will grow all kinds of trees used for food; their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. They will bear fruit every month, because their water flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for medicine.”

Now in this section we again have specific known borders and details that are not allegories. It notes that the swamps and marshes are not healed and these fish are literal fish. Now when this river is flowing it is at the time the 12 tribes of Israel receive their inheritance in the land and again all known current boundaries are mentioned and this is not the new jerusalem coming down but a restoration of current Israel after the LORD has come.

13 Thus says the Lord GOD: “These are the borders by which you shall divide the land as an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel. Joseph shall have two portions. 14 You shall inherit it equally with one another; for I raised My hand in an oath to give it to your fathers, and this land shall fall to you as your inheritance.
15 “This shall be the border of the land on the north: from the Great Sea, by the road to Hethlon, as one goes to Zedad, 16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim (which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath), to Hazar Hatticon (which is on the border of Hauran). 17 Thus the boundary shall be from the Sea to Hazar Enan, the border of Damascus; and as for the north, northward, it is the border of Hamath. This is the north side.
18 “On the east side you shall mark out the border from between Hauran and Damascus, and between Gilead and the land of Israel, along the Jordan, and along the eastern side of the sea. This is the east side.
19 “The south side, toward the South,[fn] shall be from Tamar to the waters of Meribah by Kadesh, along the brook to the Great Sea. This is the south side, toward the South.
20 “The west side shall be the Great Sea, from the southern boundary until one comes to a point opposite Hamath. This is the west side.
21 “Thus you shall divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 It shall be that you will divide it by lot as an inheritance for yourselves, and for the strangers who dwell among you and who bear children among you. They shall be to you as native-born among the children of Israel; they shall have an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. 23 And it shall be that in whatever tribe the stranger dwells, there you shall give him his inheritance,” says the Lord GOD.

in this section child birth is still happening and this taken literal with Zech 14 being literal makes a lot of sense.

Spiritual Jew · Apr 23, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi Jer the LORD or notes that they have forsaken Him the fountain of living water have dug cisterns that can hold no water. Again symbolic. But in Eze 47 7 When I returned, there, along the bank of the river, were very many trees on one side and the other. 8 Then he said to me: “This water flows toward the eastern region, goes down into the valley, and enters the sea. When it reaches the sea, its waters are healed. 9 And it shall be that every living thing that moves, wherever the rivers go, will live. There will be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters go there; for they will be healed, and everything will live wherever the river goes. 10 It shall be that fishermen will stand by it from En Gedi to En Eglaim; they will be places for spreading their nets. Their fish will be of the same kinds as the fish of the Great Sea, exceedingly many. 11 But its swamps and marshes will not be healed; they will be given over to salt. 12 Along the bank of the river, on this side and that, will grow all kinds of trees used for food; their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. They will bear fruit every month, because their water flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for medicine.”

Now in this section we again have specific known borders and details that are not allegories. It notes that the swamps and marshes are not healed and these fish are literal fish. Now when this river is flowing it is at the time the 12 tribes of Israel receive their inheritance in the land and again all known current boundaries are mentioned and this is not the new jerusalem coming down but a restoration of current Israel after the LORD has come.

13 Thus says the Lord GOD: “These are the borders by which you shall divide the land as an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel. Joseph shall have two portions. 14 You shall inherit it equally with one another; for I raised My hand in an oath to give it to your fathers, and this land shall fall to you as your inheritance.
15 “This shall be the border of the land on the north: from the Great Sea, by the road to Hethlon, as one goes to Zedad, 16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim (which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath), to Hazar Hatticon (which is on the border of Hauran). 17 Thus the boundary shall be from the Sea to Hazar Enan, the border of Damascus; and as for the north, northward, it is the border of Hamath. This is the north side.
18 “On the east side you shall mark out the border from between Hauran and Damascus, and between Gilead and the land of Israel, along the Jordan, and along the eastern side of the sea. This is the east side.
19 “The south side, toward the South,[fn] shall be from Tamar to the waters of Meribah by Kadesh, along the brook to the Great Sea. This is the south side, toward the South.
20 “The west side shall be the Great Sea, from the southern boundary until one comes to a point opposite Hamath. This is the west side.
21 “Thus you shall divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 It shall be that you will divide it by lot as an inheritance for yourselves, and for the strangers who dwell among you and who bear children among you. They shall be to you as native-born among the children of Israel; they shall have an inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. 23 And it shall be that in whatever tribe the stranger dwells, there you shall give him his inheritance,” says the Lord GOD.

in this section child birth is still happening and this taken literal with Zech 14 being literal makes a lot of sense.

No, it doesn't make sense based on what other scriptures teaches about what will happen when Christ returns. It doesn't make sense to believe that animal sacrifices will be reinstituted in the future. Which is what you believe if you think those passages from Ezekiel and Zechariah will be fulfilled in the future. You have done nothing to show any basis for believing that God would want animal sacrifices to be reinstituted in the future.

TribulationSigns · Apr 23, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
Hi your allegorical interpretation falls apart when you take the context of the whole chapter rather than isolate the verses about the living water.

Not really.

1st the day the mountain splits is a day when Jerusalem is being overrun and half the city it taken. Now the LORD comes on this same day which is also referred to as it being dark in the day and light at night and these who are invading are melted at this same time. Now as the LORD descends and the Mountain splits this is the moment the LORD is king over all the earth. This event does not just create this river but it also creates a new plain with again specific boundaries.

Huh?

Do you realize that the mountains in Scripture signify kingdom? So what kingdom was under judgment where God has prepared His Elect to escape from the kingdom that has fallen to the kingdom that Christ rebuilt where they can keep the feast of tabernacles? Hint: Matthew 21:43.

This is why I keep pointing to the prophecy in Luke one of a Jesus causing a great deliverance in Israel and from that time they are safe and now a holy people when Jesus takes the throne of David. This is exactly what happens in Zech 14. the LORD is king over all the earth and they will say the LORD is one. This is Israel confessing Jesus is LORD.

Okay, the real question is, what Israel is she that Christ has established His Kingdom upon? No, it is not so-called national Israel in the Middle East. It is something bigger. Try reading this to find out what the Feast of Tabernacles is all about.

Brian Mcnamee · Apr 23, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
I see you have a habit of avoiding simple questions that disprove your position, but are quick to make demands of others that are relaying strong biblical truth.

Please address the following avoided questions:

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on a millennial earth?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

If you cannot address these will you address the following? No Premil will address this. I can only take this as an admission that there is no connection between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20, and that Premil is extra-biblical.

you like to argue from silence which is a logical fallacy. It would be like sharing Isaiah 53 with a Jew and having them say where does it say 3 days and nights in the grave?

The kingdom that comes and covers the earth and has no end has only one beginning. So in Rev the context of the book leading up to chapter 20 already has 1/4 of the earth killed off by the seal judgments and another 1/3 killed off by the next wave. It has a beast who is given power by the dragon (satan) for exactly 42 months and this guy is drawn to Armageddon where he meets his demise. Now the beast is cast into the lake of fire and then Satan is bound after Armageddon. This is when the angels proclaim the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdoms of the LORD and His Christ and He shall reign forever. This is not Jesus ruling through the church but clearly a battle that describes the location and the winner. Now if this proclamation of the kingdom has now been taken is the moment of triumph the old testament prophecies are looking towards that same day.

you are correct that only Rev 20 notes the duration of time as 1000 years but it does so many times and then describes the events after Satan is loosed. One last deception and an army comes and surround Jerusalem and it is game over. Two separate events Armageddon and Gog Magog 2.

So the passages in Daniel notably 2 7 both show the coming of the kingdom and if you also look at Zech 14 it is telling the same story from a different view. In Zech 14 the dead of Armageddon will be there but the added detail of half the city being taken is also given. Now this is interesting side note as the other half may be give to Palestinians as there capital. Anyways Zech 14 shows life continuing on earth after these events and indeed it does not say 1000 years, so what. In Dan 2 when the stone descends it destroys the image of mans kingdoms and is a mountain that is a kingdom that covers the earth and leaves no trace of mans rule and this kingdom has no end. in my view this is accomplished in a single moment at the 2nd coming and Jesus is the stone and there will be no trace of mans rule left.

This is how the transfer occurs in Rev and in Zech 14 in a single moment it is accomplished.
Dan 7 notes the same thing and persecution is taking place for 3 1/2 years. Then the kingdom is given to the glorified son of man who is before the ancient of days and the pompous one is given to the flame. The rest of the beast lose their dominion but have their lives prolonged for a season and a time.

No more dominion because the son of man now has total dominion but this kingdom covers the earth and has not end and again the changing of the guard is sudden when a decission is made in favor of the saints. So it does not say 1000 years but if you cannot see that these are all talking about the same timeframe and transition then I cannot help you.

Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?

sovereigngrace · Apr 23, 2021

Brian Mcnamee said:
Silence!

Manifestly, you have no response to the Amil biblical arguments.

Contrary to what Premil teaches: Revelation 20 does not locate Jesus on earth!

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