Contrary to what Premil teaches: Revelation 20 does not locate Jesus on earth!

sovereigngrace

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For years, it has been the Premil mantra that Jesus will be ruling in majesty and glory for 1000 years on planet earth after the second coming. This is repeatedly advanced as a core fundamental of that theory. But when you dig a little bit deeper and press Premils, it is clear that this theory cannot be found in Revelation 20 - the only text they have that mentions a thousand years. In fact, nowhere in Scripture teaches that Christ will be ruling in majesty and glory for 1000 years after the second coming in what is in reality a re-run of this current corrupt age.

The Premil new earth is a contradictory mix of justice and injustice, deliverance and bondage, light and darkness, righteousness and unrighteousness, perfection and sin, glorification and corruption, sin and sinlessness, immortality and mortality, peace and harmony and war and terror.

This is clearly an extra-biblical Premil innovation. This is testimony to how bereft this doctrine is of biblical support.

Premils avoid the basic question: where in Revelation 20 does it show Jesus on earth?

Revelation 20 actually takes us back to the first resurrection - where Jesus conquered, sin, death, Hades and Satan. It shows the spiritual binding of Satan in order to enlighten the Gentiles. When Christ bound Satan’s kingdom through His life, death and resurrection then the kingdom of darkness was bound. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

Just before the second coming Satan gets a little season to wreck havoc on the Church. When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

What arrives at the second coming is the eternal state - perfection. The earth will be finally and wholly purged of the bondage of corruption, not as Premils argue: we are plagued with another age like ours full of sin and sinners, crying and dying, Satan and his demons. This alleged future Premil millennial kingdom ends with the wicked overrunning the age to come and surrounding Christ in all His glory and the glorified saints.
 
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DavidPT

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When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions.

This might be more convincing if Revelation 20:4 didn't already inform us that the beast is released from the pit before the thousand years begin, not after they end instead. Premils are not arguing that satan is not loosed from the pit after the thousand years, clearly he is, Premils are arguing that the beast is not released after the thousand years, but has already been released before the thousand years even begin. And not only that, the beast is already in the LOF when satan is loosed. The current thread I have going, in regards to Daniel 7, proves these things are so.


The era of time meant in Daniel 7:22 is meaning the same era of time meant in Daniel 7:9-12. And that only hardcore Preterists would argue that Daniel 7:9-12 is not meaning events pertaining to the 2nd coming. Verse 12 indicates that the rest of the beasts, unlike the fate of the little horn beast at the time, their lives are prolonged for a season and a time, and not, that they too are given to the burning flame at the time. Therefore Daniel 7:9-11 couldn't possibly mean the GWTJ, where Amils would need it to mean that if Amil is supposed to work. But there are no lives prolonged for a season and a time, during the GWTJ, though. That can only apply to an era of time prior to that judgment. Daniel 7:9-12 alone debunks Amil and will only work with Premil.
 
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sovereigngrace

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This might be more convincing if Revelation 20:4 didn't already inform us that the beast is released from the pit before the thousand years begin, not after they end instead. Premils are not arguing that satan is not loosed from the pit after the thousand years, clearly he is, Premils are arguing that the beast is not released after the thousand years, but has already been released before the thousand years even begin. And not only that, the beast is already in the LOF when satan is loosed. The current thread I have going, in regards to Daniel 7, proves these things are so.


The era of time meant in Daniel 7:22 is meaning the same era of time meant in Daniel 7:9-12. And that only hardcore Preterists would argue that Daniel 7:9-12 is not meaning events pertaining to the 2nd coming. Verse 12 indicates that the rest of the beasts, unlike the fate of the little horn beast at the time, their lives are prolonged for a season and a time, and not, that they too are given to the burning flame at the time. Therefore Daniel 7:9-11 couldn't possibly mean the GWTJ, where Amils would need it to mean that if Amil is supposed to work. But there are no lives prolonged for a season and a time, during the GWTJ, though. That can only apply to an era of time prior to that judgment. Daniel 7:9-12 alone debunks Amil and will only work with Premil.

I notice you totally sidestepped all the evidence, arguments and references presented and simply transpired to just voice opinions. Could you please address the hard and definite evidence? You hang your whole doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce it from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Premil is dependent upon the dubious premise that Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19. That is it! Disprove that and Premil falls apart.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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Hi one of your tactics is to argue from silence and that is a logical fallacy. Your question of where does it say in Rev 20 that Jesus is on the earth is such. If other verses in the Bible talk of Jesus being on the earth at the time of this 2nd coming would that not be addressing this issue. Do you believe in the trinity? There is not one verse in the whole Bible that says God is a trinity but this core doctrine is a clear teaching of the Bible.

The kingdom that comes and covers the earth and has no end is seen throughout the scriptures as a clear before and after picture. All the horrors and wars, persecution and all are the events that lead up to the 2nd coming. After Jesus is come there is no more war, the nations are no more deceived until the 1000 years is over and one last test of loyalty is allowed. The 2nd coming in Zech 14 shows the LORD coming and His feet will touch the mount of Olives and this comes when Jerusalem is being overrun and half the city taken captive. At the end of the 1000 years the city is only surrounded and then fire comes down and that is it.

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

The night and day difference when Jesus takes that throne Justice and judgment from that time forever. In Zech 14 when the LORD is king over all the earth the new river that flows when the mount of Olives splits will heal the Dead Sea and when this occurs the 12 tribes receive their inheritance. (Eze 47) The nations which survive must keep the feast of Tabernacles and worship the king or they get no rain. You see in the New Jerusalem there is no more sea. These events are future and you cannot see it. The promises of Luke one show Israel being delivered from their enemies and then able to serve the LORD with out fear and now in holiness all the days of their lives. In this passage it says Jessu will keep these prophecies, oaths and covenants with the fathers. This is what Hosea noted that where it was said not my people you shall be called sons of the living God.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Hi one of your tactics is to argue from silence and that is a logical fallacy. Your question of where does it say in Rev 20 that Jesus is on the earth is such. If other verses in the Bible talk of Jesus being on the earth at the time of this 2nd coming would that not be addressing this issue. Do you believe in the trinity? There is not one verse in the whole Bible that says God is a trinity but this core doctrine is a clear teaching of the Bible.

The kingdom that comes and covers the earth and has no end is seen throughout the scriptures as a clear before and after picture. All the horrors and wars, persecution and all are the events that lead up to the 2nd coming. After Jesus is come there is no more war, the nations are no more deceived until the 1000 years is over and one last test of loyalty is allowed. The 2nd coming in Zech 14 shows the LORD coming and His feet will touch the mount of Olives and this comes when Jerusalem is being overrun and half the city taken captive. At the end of the 1000 years the city is only surrounded and then fire comes down and that is it.

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

The night and day difference when Jesus takes that throne Justice and judgment from that time forever. In Zech 14 when the LORD is king over all the earth the new river that flows when the mount of Olives splits will heal the Dead Sea and when this occurs the 12 tribes receive their inheritance. (Eze 47) The nations which survive must keep the feast of Tabernacles and worship the king or they get no rain. You see in the New Jerusalem there is no more sea. These events are future and you cannot see it. The promises of Luke one show Israel being delivered from their enemies and then able to serve the LORD with out fear and now in holiness all the days of their lives. In this passage it says Jessu will keep these prophecies, oaths and covenants with the fathers. This is what Hosea noted that where it was said not my people you shall be called sons of the living God.

This thread is actually exposing the silence that pertains to Premil on one of its main fundamentals. This is only one of many fundamentals Premils have not thought through properly. Amils (on the other hand) build their views on a solid biblical foundation.

Notwithstanding, you concede my overriding point in the Op re there being no mention of Jesus on earth in Revelation 20. This Premil fundamental is indeed based upon silence. It clearly therefore doesn't have explicit textual support. You do make passing mention of Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14, as if it supports your claims, although you provide no quotes.

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on a millennial earth?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?

Where in Ezekiel 47 and Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

The reality is: they have nothing to do with some supposed future millennium. You force that on them to sustain your view.
 
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Timtofly

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For years, it has been the Premil mantra that Jesus will be ruling in majesty and glory for 1000 years on planet earth after the second coming. This is repeatedly advanced as a core fundamental of that theory. But when you dig a little deeper and press Premils, it is clear that this theory cannot be found in Revelation 20 - the only text they have to support their doctrine. In fact, nowhere in Scripture teaches that Christ will be ruling in majesty and glory for 1000 years in what is in reality a re-run of this current corrupt age.

The Premil new earth is a contradictory mix of justice and injustice, deliverance and bondage, light and darkness, righteousness and unrighteousness, perfection and sin, glorification and corruption, sin and sinlessness, immortality and mortality, peace and harmony and war and terror.

This is clearly an extra-biblical Premil innovation. This is testimony to how bereft this doctrine is of biblical support.

Premils avoid the basic question: where in Revelation 20 does it show Jesus on earth?

Revelation 20 actually takes us back to the first resurrection - where Jesus conquered, sin, death Hades and Satan. It shows the spiritual binding of Satan in order to enlighten the Gentiles. When Christ bound Satan’s kingdom through His life, death and resurrection then the kingdom of darkness was bound. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

Just before the second coming Satan gets a little season to wreck havoc on the Church. When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

What arrives at the second coming is the eternal state - perfection. The earth will be finally totally purged of the bondage of corruption, not as Premils argue: we are plagued with another age like ours full of sin and sinners, crying and dying, Satan and his demons. It is an age that ends in the wicked overruning the age to come and surrounding Christ in all His glory and the glorified saints.
God does not accept your interpretation of Revelation 20. None of this interpretation can be found in Scripture. Satan is not bound, only his angels. Jude 1:6

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

This verse is vague, but the chains are the immediate result of their leaving heaven is about all we have here. Satan was not bound with them at that time. Only speculation about that. What verse do you have to show them unbound?


What verse do you have to show that at the Second Coming, Christ leaves the earth? Without that verse, how can you prove Christ is not on the earth. Matthew 25:31-32

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations."

The Second Coming brings Christ to earth and His glorious throne is set up on earth. He judges the nations of earth on earth. He does not judge the nations of heaven in heaven. He does not move all the nations to heaven to judge them. The Second Coming is just as much to earth and on the earth as the first coming. The first coming was judgment on a Cross. The Second Coming is judgment on a throne.

Jesus Second Coming is not to heaven. Is that your interpretation of Matthew 25:31-32?
 
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sovereigngrace

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God does not accept your interpretation of Revelation 20. None of this interpretation can be found in Scripture. Satan is not bound, only his angels. Jude 1:6

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

This verse is vague, but the chains are the immediate result of their leaving heaven is about all we have here. Satan was not bound with them at that time. Only speculation about that. What verse do you have to show them unbound?


What verse do you have to show that at the Second Coming, Christ leaves the earth? Without that verse, how can you prove Christ is not on the earth. Matthew 25:31-32

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations."

The Second Coming brings Christ to earth and His glorious throne is set up on earth. He judges thecnations of earth on earth. He does not judge the nations of heaven in heaven. He does not move all the nations to heaven to judge them. The Second Coming is just as much to earth and on the earth as the first coming. The first coming was judgment on a Cross. The Second Coming is judgment on a throne.

Jesus Second Coming is not to heaven. Is that your interpretation of Matthew 25:31-32?

He populates the new perfect glorified earth at the second coming, not the sin-cursed death-blighted earth that Premil proposes. Nowhere in Revelation 20 does it show Christ on earth. That is because He is reigning in heaven now throughout the Revelation 20 period.
 
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Timtofly

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I notice you totally sidestepped all the evidence, arguments and references presented and transpired to just voice opinions. Could you please address the hard and definite evidence? You hang your whole doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce it from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Premil is dependent upon the dubious premise that Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19. That is it! Disprove that and Premil falls apart.
Sorry but recap is private interpretation and not admissible as the inspired Word of God. John does not claim any where to read his writings as recap. All human misunderstanding and that is not being symbolic, but literal. You do not like personal opinions and interpretations, so you cannot use recap, since it is literally just another opinion and human interpretation.
 
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Timtofly

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He populates the new perfect glorified earth at the second coming, not the sin-cursed death-blighted earth that Premil proposes. Nowhere in Revelation 20 does it show Christ on earth. That is because He is reigning in heaven now throughout the Revelation 20 period.
Jesus has children? You are being too vague here. Since I do not propose your own pre-mill strawman argument, and you do not claim to be pre-mill, I am not addressing pre-mill posters. I am talking about your strawman position that does not, nor can not exist. If any one claims such about the Millennium, they are wrong. Since they are wrong, your proof is as wrong as they are. Defining the Millennium is not that solid of a foundation to prove or disprove that it can exist.


As an example. That the millennium is perfect and without sin, would rule out it being now, which seems to be the reason why saying it is now refutes that position. You cannot have your Millennium now, if you define it as perfect and without sin. If you claim the millennium is the same ole same ole as now, you would still be wrong. You cannot have the same definition both ways. So when you claim the millennium is just full of sin, the argument is a strawman. The Millennium is not now, nor is it full of sin for the very same reason it is after the Second Coming.

The only argument you have is Satan being bound. You cannot prove it.
 
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sovereigngrace

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As an example. That the millennium is perfect and without sin, would rule out it being now, which seems to be the reason why saying it is now refutes that position.

How can you say that? That is plainly wrong. The millennium is populated with billions of wicked as the sand of sea who oppose the people of God and side with Satan.

This correlates with our age and proves we are in that era now.
 
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TribulationSigns

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I would say that SovereignGrace is more accurate than Timtofly on millennial kingdom. Premillennialism version of revelation 20 isn’t accurate interpretation. Timtofly doesn’t understand that Satan had to be bound so that Christ builds His Church on Earth. That is millennial kingdom, not some fantasy 1,000 years free of sin with full of peace where all animals sat together. Instead It’s a spiritual picture of the church. Satan has been bound since the Cross UNTIL Christ has finish secured all His Elect. Only then Satan will be loosened to be used by God to test and judge His unfaithful church. his house first then the world when Christ shall returns to judge the heathens. After this eternal begins. Not 1,000 years.
 
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sovereigngrace

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None of this interpretation can be found in Scripture. Satan is not bound, only his angels. Jude 1:6

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

This verse is vague, but the chains are the immediate result of their leaving heaven is about all we have here. Satan was not bound with them at that time. Only speculation about that. What verse do you have to show them unbound?

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Since the first Advent, Satan is shown to be a conquered foe.

• Satan is powerless to do what he wants to do.
• He is powerless to stop the Church of Jesus Christ spreading the good news of Gospel throughout the nations.
• He is powerless to stop someone coming to Christ.
• He is powerless to stop a man or woman of God walking in the will of God.
• He is powerless to harm a believer without God’s permission.
• He is powerless to resist a Spirit-filled believer implementing delegated authority from on high against the devil and his demons.
• He is powerless to affect the final outcome of this battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness.
 
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DavidPT

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What verse do you have to show that at the Second Coming, Christ leaves the earth? Without that verse, how can you prove Christ is not on the earth. Matthew 25:31-32

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations."

The Second Coming brings Christ to earth and His glorious throne is set up on earth. He judges the nations of earth on earth. He does not judge the nations of heaven in heaven. He does not move all the nations to heaven to judge them. The Second Coming is just as much to earth and on the earth as the first coming. The first coming was judgment on a Cross. The Second Coming is judgment on a throne.

Jesus Second Coming is not to heaven. Is that your interpretation of Matthew 25:31-32?


Those verses undeniably prove where Christ will be at as of the 2nd coming. At least to anyone who is not Amil. But per Amil though, they have the entire planet literally engulfed in flames at the time, thus nowhere for Jesus to fulfill those verses. To be Amil is to make total nonsense out of Scriptures such as Matthew 25:31-32, where it is obvious to most of us that Christ has to have a place to perform that judgment, and the fact He is seen coming somewhere at the time, how can it not be the earth He is coming to? And how can it be the new earth He is coming to and setting foot upon, if according to Amils, the new earth is not until after the great white throne judgment?

Though there are times when you have totally lost me, there are times when we appear to be on the same page about some of these things. This being one of those times.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Those verses undeniably prove where Christ will be at as of the 2nd coming. At least to anyone who is not Amil. But per Amil though, they have the entire planet literally engulfed in flames at the time, thus nowhere for Jesus to fulfill those verses. To be Amil is to make total nonsense out of Scriptures such as Matthew 25:31-32, where it is obvious to most of us that Christ has to have a place to perform that judgment, and the fact He is seen coming somewhere at the time, how can it not be the earth He is coming to? And how can it be the new earth He is coming to and setting foot upon, if according to Amils, the new earth is not until after the great white throne judgment?

Though there are times when you have totally lost me, there are times when we appear to be on the same page about some of these things. This being one of those times.

You are obviously lost for biblical evidence. Matthew 25:31-46 reinforces the Amil position and forbids Premil. (1) There is absolutely no mention of a future millennium in that passage after the coming of Christ. (2) It proves the second coming is climactic. (3) it proves a general judgment. (4) The wicked cannot populate the future earth as you try to do. When Jesus comes it is the end! The sheep inherit the kingdom(Matthew 25:34) and “life eternal(Matthew 25:46) whereas the goats are cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:41) and receive everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46).

1 Corinthians 15:50 declares, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.”

This reading makes plain, “flesh and blood” or mortal believers cannot inherit a glorified earth that has been purified by fire of every last vestige of the curse. Man in his sinful corruptible state cannot inherit an incorruptible regenerated earth. Nothing could be plainer.

The new earth and the age to come is reserved solely for God’s people. The wicked will not see Christ’s face in the new arrangement because they are not qualified to inherit it. They will be destroyed at His glorious second advent.

Amils believes Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints. It will not be sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted as you argue.

This current corrupt earth is removed upon Christ’s return! But what replaces it in Premil? Another corrupt earth. Whilst Premils try to portray it as all sweetness and light it is in fact a re-run of our day, with more sin, more death, more corruption, more injustice, more darkness, more unrighteousness, more war and terror, more rapes, more tears, more funerals, more thefts, more heartache, more betrayals, more bondage. The new world/age you promote is more of the same.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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This might be more convincing if Revelation 20:4 didn't already inform us that the beast is released from the pit before the thousand years begin, not after they end instead. Premils are not arguing that satan is not loosed from the pit after the thousand years, clearly he is, Premils are arguing that the beast is not released after the thousand years, but has already been released before the thousand years even begin. And not only that, the beast is already in the LOF when satan is loosed.
It seems to me that you are not recognizing here that the dragon (Satan) and the beast are inseparable and go hand in hand. They need each other. Satan uses the beast to do his bidding. This is shown quite clearly in this passage (regardless of your understanding of the timing of this):

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

What can the beast do without receiving power from the dragon? Not much. What can the dragon do without the beast? Not nearly as much as he can do with the beast. The dragon needs the beast to do its bidding and the beast needs the dragon's power to do what the dragon wants it to do. That is what you are missing, in my opinion. You are acting as if it's possible for the dragon, Satan, to be bound while the beast is not. Or vice versa. No. If the dragon is bound or restrained then so is the beast because the beast needs the dragon's power in order to do what it does.

I believe the onus is on you to show that the beast can somehow do what it does without the aid of the dragon. Or that the dragon has no need for the beast in order to do what he does. I feel that scripture like Revelation 13:4 strongly supports my claim about their relationship. What scripture do you have to counter my claim?

The current thread I have going, in regards to Daniel 7, proves these things are so.
Only in your opinion. I have read that thread and I would say you have not proven anything there.

The era of time meant in Daniel 7:22 is meaning the same era of time meant in Daniel 7:9-12. And that only hardcore Preterists would argue that Daniel 7:9-12 is not meaning events pertaining to the 2nd coming.
That is not true at all as it relates to verse 12. Hardcore preterists would say that all of Daniel 7:9-12 is fulfilled. I believe verse 12 is fulfilled, but not verses 9-11. As I have told you in your thread, verse 12 is parenthetical and does not have the same timing of verses 9-11. You acknowledge that verses 13 and 14 have different timing from Daniel 7:9-11 so why can't you allow the possibility for that to be the case for verse 12 as well?

Verse 12 indicates that the rest of the beasts, unlike the fate of the little horn beast at the time, their lives are prolonged for a season and a time, and not, that they too are given to the burning flame at the time. Therefore Daniel 7:9-11 couldn't possibly mean the GWTJ, where Amils would need it to mean that if Amil is supposed to work. But there are no lives prolonged for a season and a time, during the GWTJ, though. That can only apply to an era of time prior to that judgment. Daniel 7:9-12 alone debunks Amil and will only work with Premil.
No, it does not. It's amazing to me that you can acknowledge that Daniel 7:13-14 is not about the second coming but at the same time you insist that verse 12 must relate to the second coming. I find that to be very strange.

I'm far from the only one who believes that Daniel 7:12 is a parenthetical verse. The NIV even puts the verse in parentheses.

Daniel 7:12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.) - NIV

What Daniel was doing there was recognizing that people would likely wonder what happened to the first 3 beasts since he hadn't talked about that previously. He had only talked about what happened to the fourth beast. So, verse 12 was a case of him basically saying, "Oh, by the way, the other beasts that came before the fourth beast had been stripped of their authority but were allowed to live for a period of time after that".
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Hi one of your tactics is to argue from silence and that is a logical fallacy. Your question of where does it say in Rev 20 that Jesus is on the earth is such. If other verses in the Bible talk of Jesus being on the earth at the time of this 2nd coming would that not be addressing this issue. Do you believe in the trinity? There is not one verse in the whole Bible that says God is a trinity but this core doctrine is a clear teaching of the Bible.

The kingdom that comes and covers the earth and has no end is seen throughout the scriptures as a clear before and after picture. All the horrors and wars, persecution and all are the events that lead up to the 2nd coming. After Jesus is come there is no more war, the nations are no more deceived until the 1000 years is over and one last test of loyalty is allowed. The 2nd coming in Zech 14 shows the LORD coming and His feet will touch the mount of Olives and this comes when Jerusalem is being overrun and half the city taken captive. At the end of the 1000 years the city is only surrounded and then fire comes down and that is it.

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

The night and day difference when Jesus takes that throne Justice and judgment from that time forever. In Zech 14 when the LORD is king over all the earth the new river that flows when the mount of Olives splits will heal the Dead Sea and when this occurs the 12 tribes receive their inheritance. (Eze 47) The nations which survive must keep the feast of Tabernacles and worship the king or they get no rain. You see in the New Jerusalem there is no more sea. These events are future and you cannot see it. The promises of Luke one show Israel being delivered from their enemies and then able to serve the LORD with out fear and now in holiness all the days of their lives. In this passage it says Jessu will keep these prophecies, oaths and covenants with the fathers. This is what Hosea noted that where it was said not my people you shall be called sons of the living God.
Since you see Zechariah 14 as having a future fulfillment at the second coming of Christ then that means you believe animal sacrifices will be reinstated at that time. What would be the purpose of these animal sacrifices? Please show the scripture which supports your answer to that question.

Do you really think it makes sense that Christ would make His amazing once for all sacrifice in order to make an end of animal sacrifices (Hebrews 10) only to have animal sacrifices brought back again when He returns?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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God does not accept your interpretation of Revelation 20.
Oh, you speak for God? He told you this Himself?

None of this interpretation can be found in Scripture. Satan is not bound, only his angels. Jude 1:6

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

This verse is vague, but the chains are the immediate result of their leaving heaven is about all we have here. Satan was not bound with them at that time. Only speculation about that. What verse do you have to show them unbound?
Was Satan not also an angel? Why would that verse not include him?

What verse do you have to show that at the Second Coming, Christ leaves the earth? Without that verse, how can you prove Christ is not on the earth. Matthew 25:31-32

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations."

The Second Coming brings Christ to earth and His glorious throne is set up on earth. He judges the nations of earth on earth. He does not judge the nations of heaven in heaven. He does not move all the nations to heaven to judge them. The Second Coming is just as much to earth and on the earth as the first coming. The first coming was judgment on a Cross. The Second Coming is judgment on a throne.

Jesus Second Coming is not to heaven. Is that your interpretation of Matthew 25:31-32?
Where does Matthew 25:31-32 say that Jesus is on the earth? It doesn't say that there just as there is no mention of Him being on earth anywhere in Revelation 20.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Those verses undeniably prove where Christ will be at as of the 2nd coming. At least to anyone who is not Amil. But per Amil though, they have the entire planet literally engulfed in flames at the time, thus nowhere for Jesus to fulfill those verses. To be Amil is to make total nonsense out of Scriptures such as Matthew 25:31-32, where it is obvious to most of us that Christ has to have a place to perform that judgment, and the fact He is seen coming somewhere at the time, how can it not be the earth He is coming to? And how can it be the new earth He is coming to and setting foot upon, if according to Amils, the new earth is not until after the great white throne judgment?

Though there are times when you have totally lost me, there are times when we appear to be on the same page about some of these things. This being one of those times.
Where does Matthew 25:31-32 say that the judgment is taking place on earth? It doesn't. And, yet, you try to say it undeniably proves where it takes place? That is nonsense.

Matthew 25:31-46 is clearly portraying the same judgment day as Revelation 20:10 - 21:5. Unless you think believers will receive eternal life and unbelievers will be cast into the fire on two completely separate occasions, which makes no sense.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

According to this verse the judgment clearly does not take place on earth or in heaven. It could be the new earth. Just because the new earth is not mentioned until Rev 21:1 does not mean what is described in Rev 20:11-15 can't take place there. But, the fact is, scripture doesn't tell us exactly where it takes place. So, to say that it undeniably takes place in any certain place, like the earth, is ridiculous.
 
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DavidPT

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I notice you totally sidestepped all the evidence, arguments and references presented and simply transpired to just voice opinions. Could you please address the hard and definite evidence? You hang your whole doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce it from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Premil is dependent upon the dubious premise that Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19. That is it! Disprove that and Premil falls apart.


Why are you not wanting to address my evidence which appears to trump your evidence, or at least in my view it does? My evidence proves your evidence is wrong unless you can first prove that the evidense I allege, it does not pertain to anything I have alleged.

If Daniel 7:22 is not the interpretation of Daniel 7:9-11, what is Daniel 7:22 the interpretation of in Daniel 7? And what about verse 12, where is the interpretation of that if not in verse 27 for one, where it says the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him?

Daniel 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


Obviously, until they are stripped of their dominion first, in the meantime they are not already fulfilling this part---and all dominions shall serve and obey him. That only makes sense after they are stripped of their dominion. The text indicates that their lives were prolonged for a season and a time, apparently meaning after they have their dominion taken away first.


The question is, when do they have their dominion taken away? How can it not be during when the beast is given to the burning flame? Why would the rest of the beasts meant here not be present at that judgment? If they are at that judgment, and that they too are given to the burning flame at the time, why didn't the text say so rather than what it says in verse 12 instead?

As to verses 13 and 14, that is not meaning during the events that verses 9-12 are meaning. For one, that passage is simply telling us who will be the one doing the judging in the future, in regards to verses 9-11, and how that one came about that position. These verses speak of the ascension right after Jesus left earth 2000 years ago. No Amil that I'm aware of disagrees with that, though there are some Premils that disagree with that, but I'm not one of them, but there was a time in the past when I was, but I have since changed my position on that.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Why are you not wanting to address my evidence which appears to trump your evidence, or at least in my view it does? My evidence proves your evidence is wrong unless you can first prove that the evidense I allege, it does not pertain to anything I have alleged.

If Daniel 7:22 is not the interpretation of Daniel 7:9-11, what is Daniel 7:22 the interpretation of in Daniel 7? And what about verse 12, where is the interpretation of that if not in verse 27 for one, where it says the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him?

Daniel 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


Obviously, until they are stripped of their dominion first, in the meantime they are not already fulfilling this part---and all dominions shall serve and obey him. That only makes sense after they are stripped of their dominion. The text indicates that their lives were prolonged for a season and a time, apparently meaning after they have their dominion taken away first.


The question is, when do they have their dominion taken away? How can it not be during when the beast is given to the burning flame? Why would the rest of the beasts meant here not be present at that judgment? If they are at that judgment, and that they too are given to the burning flame at the time, why didn't the text say so rather than what it says in verse 12 instead?

As to verses 13 and 14, that is not meaning during the events that verses 9-12 are meaning. For one, that passage is simply telling us who will be the one doing the judging in the future, in regards to verses 9-11, and how that one came about that position. These verses speak of the ascension right after Jesus left earth 2000 years ago. No Amil that I'm aware of disagrees with that, though there are some Premils that disagree with that, but I'm not one of them, but there was a time in the past when I was, but I have since changed my position on that.

Stop avoiding the above evidence and stop derailing this thread.
 
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