Do you think death is random?

Hmm said:

you're saying that we're not robots but pawns. How do bishops fit into this?

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Chuckle...

Hmm said:

I agree that we choose according to what we most want. Where we differ, if I understand you correctly, is that you are saying that God determines what those wants or desires are whereas I believe we can reflect on what it is we really want and our desires change accordingly. E.g. we can reassess why we smoke and if we decided we'd be happier not smoking any more, our desire for smoking will go (albeit that we'd have a period of physical withdrawal to go through)

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Not that you are misquoting me, but just to be clear: I'm not saying that God directly causes all things, i.e. I'm saying he uses means to accomplish his ends. Thus, while we reflect and assess and judge for ourselves and decide and manipulate and discipline ourselves etc etc, and subsequently, we choose, there is no escape from the fact that we do so according to our preferences and mindset and environment and so on. Cause-and-effect says the whole business is caused, regardless. There is a reason why we think what we do, why we want what we want, why our mind works the way it does, why we value what we do, and so in the end, why we choose what we do.

Frankly, to me, that is all self-evident.

Hmm said:

Modern physics would disagree with that,
e.g. we know what the half-life of uranium is so if we have a lump of uranium we'd know how long it would take for half its atoms to decay but there is no way of predicting for an individual atom when it will decay - that is undeterminable even in principle.

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Undeterminable only because we don't know all the variables and principles that cause them. Nevertheless, even then, one cannot quite say that the way it decays is uncaused. Therefore, whatever happened, way back when, eventually, through the long years of cause-and-effect, resulted in what we have now.

Hmm said:

God's and man's will worked together as one in Jesus but I don't think in anyone else..

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You are referring here to co-operation, as though God's plan does not always work out, without our willful co-operation. I'm not even saying that God's plan works out in spite of our rebellion, but as a result of both rebellion and obedience. I can well imagine this is what makes Satan the most angry and frustrated: that whatever he does fits God's plan perfectly, though Satan's every intention is to prohibit God from accomplishing what he set out to do. Satan plays his part, but it is everything BUT obedience.

The notion I heard so often in my earlier years, that God cannot do this or that without my obedience, to me now is bunk. God can do whatever he chooses to do.

PaulCyp1 said:

God of course knows when each of us will die, since He see the fullness of time, including that part of time that is future to us. But that doesn't mean He wills us to die at that time. We live in a natural world, and are subject to both the laws of nature and the behaviors of other people. When people choose to reject God's will, bad things happen, sometimes including the deaths of people before the time God intended for them to die. A guy decides to hold up a store, walks in with a gun, and demands cash. When the owner refuses, the robber shoots him, grabs the cash and leaves. Was it the will of God that this man should die on this day? Absolutely not. It was not the will of God that the robber should kill someone, and if he does so, he violates the will of God.

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One of the 'natural laws' is cause-and-effect; it is pervasive. There are no gaps, no interruptions by spontaneity or uncaused causes, no such thing as chance or randomness. Those are all our minds' inventions. The only uncaused cause, the only truly spontaneous, is First Cause. (I'm not saying that God cannot intervene, but that is part of his causation --not ours)

When you decide for God what his will is in your hypotheticals, do you consider why anything went wrong for Omnipotence from the beginning? Why not, instead, realize that he has given us his 'revealed will', his command, with instructions in Godly behavior, growth of believers, etc, and also that he has his 'hidden will' --the one we know something about but not very much-- his plan for the whole thing? How many examples do we have in scripture that he commanded one thing while all along his intentions were for something else to happen. Were Joseph's brothers obedient when they stepped precisely into God's plan for Israel, selling Joseph into slavery? It doesn't say God salvaged the situation and even made something useful out of it. It says 'You indeed meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.' Their evil deed was what God intended.

Mark Quayle said:

Their evil deed was what God intended.

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Like Jesus said, only God can kill the soul. He doesn't seem to concerned if the vehicles we are in gets shmucked and other than the self preserving instinct our animal bodies have, perhaps neither should we.

timothyu said:

Like Jesus said, only God can kill the soul. He doesn't seem to concerned if the vehicles we are in gets shmucked and other than the self preserving instinct our animal bodies have, perhaps neither should we.

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Yes. He certainly didn't consider this life as important, or maybe more to the point, as worth pursuing, as the next. He seemed to me to indicate that this life is not about this life.

Mark Quayle said:

He seemed to me to indicate that this life is not about this life.

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Great way of putting it.

Mark Quayle said:

Because you say so? But like below, you misrepresent what God is doing, showing only the part you don't like.

Is it not in God's nature to glorify himself, and to show his justice and mercy to the objects of his mercy?

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The Bible says God is just therefore being unjust in focing men to do wrong then punish those men for the wrong God forced them to do is unjust, against God's nature.

Mark Quayle said:

Who is saying God "FORCES" anybody? Do you also claim he "forces" men to exist? But even if he does not ask for permission, he causes them to WILL TO DO as they do. THEY choose to do it. How is that forcing anybody against their will? Even, as with Jonah, he coerces, they still decide, and that according to what they most want at that moment. Their will, their choice.

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Predetermine = force.

God does not CAUSE a person to do "A" against that person's will, with that person having no free will choice then claim that person chose to do "A".

Does God "coerce" men to do the things they do or did God predtermen, prepregram men to do what they do?

Mark Quayle said:

But notice his right. He doesn't ask permission to bring people into existence, and he doesn't ask permission to take their life. It is all his to do as he will. Yet he is gracious and kind, and you want to say we think he FORCES???

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I did not ask to be born, that was my parents decision. But the issue here is did GOd before the world began already predetermine very little thing a man does with man having no choice in what GOD predtermeined for him.

Mark Quayle said:

I would certainly, gratefully, thank him for changing my will, self-important, rebellious, and at enmity with Christ!!! He didn't ask for permission when he did it. But to call it "FORCED" is a gross misrepresentation of his gentle tender loving care.

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To predetermine a man to do "A" is forcing that man to do "A". Free will is simply having the ability to choose between 2 or more options. When God predetermined that man to do "A" that man has no options to choose from that is different from "A". He MUST do "A", is FORCED by God into doing "A".

An online dictionary define predetermined as "established or decided in advance". What God predetermined man to do in adavance is GOD's choice, man has no choice in the matter.

On another forum a Calvinist tried to argue God predetermines a man to do "A" therefore that man has free will choose to do "A" which was riduculous as an argument can get.

Mark Quayle said:

Your equivocations don't improve your narrative. Of course God accomplished absolutely everything he set out to do.

I hope you haven't forgotten that not only Pharoah, but God, hardened Pharoah's heart.

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And God accomplished His will without violating man's free will but God has foreknowledge in what men of their own free will will choose to do and God uses man's choices to accomplish His will.

Again God's purpose with Pahraoh was to 1) show His power over Pharaoh and 2) maginify His name in all the earth. Had Pharoah obeyed an let the people God, then God accomplished His twofold purpose. Pharoah chose to obey, God accomplished His twofold purpose using Phraoah's choice to disobey. So it made no difference if Pharoah chose to obey or not God was going to accomplish His pupose WITHOUT violating Pharoah's will but by letting Pharoah decide. Therefore it was always within the power of Pharaoh as to how God would accomplish His purpose..the easy way by Pharaoh choosing to obey or the hard way by choosing to disobey. Since Pharoah of his own free will chose to disobey God has no culpability in what Pharaoh chose for himself.

No verse says God hardened Pharaoh's heart against Pharaoh's will, that idea is assumed into the trxts. I explained already by God creting a circumstance in putting Pharoah in a position to choose, and Pharoah of his own will chose to disobey, tehn in that sense God is said to harden his heart since GOd created the circumstance.

There is also another sense in which it can be said God hardened Pharaoh's heart. There is a common idiom in Bible language where an active verb is used to say God did some thing when in reality God simply allowed, permitted it to happen. In Job chapters 1 and 2 God ALLOWED Satan to do things to Job and his children. Since God ALLOWED it to happen God is said to have brought those things to happen to Job, Job 42:11...."and they bemoaned him (Job), and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him". Again, Job 1 and 2 God ALLOWED Satan to do those those.
If it was God's purpose Israel be set free all God had to do was to wave His little finger, so to speak, and wipe out Pharoah and his army and Israel could easily walk away. But God has a purpose with Pahraoh himself (Romans 9:17) therefore God ALLOWED Pharaoh to disobey and God used Pharoah's disobedience to accomplish His own will. Since God ALLOWED it then God is said to harden Pharaoh's heart.

"In his copious work on biblical figures of speech, E.W. Bullinger listed several ways that the Hebrew and Greek languages used verbs to mean something other than their strict, literal usage. He listed several verses that show that the languages “used active verbs to express the agent’s design or attempt to do anything, even though the thing was not actually done” (1898, p. 821). To illustrate, in discussing the Israelites, Deuteronomy 28:68 states: “Ye shall be sold (i.e., put up for sale) unto your enemies…and no man shall buy you.” The translators of the New King James Version recognized the idiom and rendered the verse, “you shall be offered for sale.” The text clearly indicated that they would not be sold, because there would be no buyer, yet the Hebrew active verb for “sold” was used. In the New Testament, a clear example of this type of usage is found in 1 John 1:10, which states, “If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him [God—KB/DM] a liar.” No one can make God a liar, but the attempt to deny sin is the equivalent of attempting to make God a liar, which is rendered with an active verb as if it actually happened. Verbs, therefore, can have idiomatic usages that may convey something other than a strict, literal meaning."

"With that in mind, Bullinger’s fourth list of idiomatic verbs deals with active verbs that “were used by the Hebrews to express, not the doing of the thing, but the permission of the thing which the agent is said to do” (p. 823, emp. in orig.). To illustrate, in commenting on Exodus 4:21, Bullinger stated: “ ‘I will harden his heart (i.e., I will permit or suffer his heart to be hardened), that he shall not let the people go.’ So in all the passages which speak of the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart. As is clear from the common use of the same Idiom in the following passages” (1968, p. 823). He then listed Jeremiah 4:10, “ ‘Lord God, surely thou hast greatly deceived this people’: i.e., thou hast suffered this People to be greatly deceived, by the false prophets….’ ” Ezekiel 14:9 is also given as an example of this type of usage: “ ‘If the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet’: i.e., I have permitted him to deceive himself.” James MacKnight, in a lengthy section on biblical idioms, agrees with Bullinger’s assessment that in Hebrew active verbs can express permission and not direct action. This explanation unquestionably clarifies the question of God hardening Pharaoh’s heart. When the text says that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, it means that God would permit or allow Pharaoh’s heart to be hardened."
Dave Miller, Ph.D.
Kyle Butt, M.Div.
Who Hardened Pharaoh's Heart?

Mark Quayle said:

You say: "Since God created the circumstance in putting Pharaoh in a position to have to choose to obey or not, it's in that sense God is said to have hardened his heart." How do you know it is in that sense? Because you say so?

I don't disagree that the mere command serves to harden hearts set against God. But that is not all God does, to harden those to whom he has chosen to do that. Nor do I deny that they deserve all they get --but it is obvious God chose (again, not denying they also chose).

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God does not harden men's heart in order to force those men to diosbey Him just so God can punish those men. Being unjust is not in GOd's nature.

Mark Quayle said:

No mercy on those who disobey? Bears up with longsuffering those who hate him. He took the firstborn, he did not kill the one man who obviously thoroughly deserved it --Pharoah

You have not shown that God does not predetermine anything; you have only shown that men are without excuse. With that, we thoroughly agree.

You say: "So the issue is NOT God putting men in circumstances but the issue is and always has been is how do men react." So why are you arguing? We agree. --Or do you mean, the issue is not who gets the glory, but who gets the blame?

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God did not show mercy to Pharaoh. Had Pharoah at first chose to obey then none of the plagues would have happened to Egypt/Pharoah. Pharaoh chose to disobey so God did not show mercy but brought plagues to Pharaoh.

THis issue is the OP is wrong. God does not predetermine all a man does/all that happens to a man..

Mark Quayle said:

This is amazing. You position 'predetermination' to mean man has no will. God determines ahead. THAT is predetermination. Here you have been positing predetermination, and demonstrating how it works with man's will --the whole time arguing against yourself!

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You need to reread my posts.

What I did post was that God foreknew and predetemined Christ would die for the sins of man, but God did not predetermine that those Jews and Romans would reject and crucufy Christ against their will. God has foreknowledge and uses it. God foreknew that by sending Christ to earth at that time, God FOREKNEW those Jews and Romans of their own free will would reject Christ and crucify Him. Therefore GOd used THEIR free will choice to accomplish His will leaving God with no culpability in THEIR choice in crucifying Christ.

Mark Quayle said:

What was predetermined --the destruction of Ninevah, or their repentance? Only one thing ever happens, regardless of the validity of the threat.

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God said "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown" but that did not happen in 40 days. Does that mean God lied? No. For Nineveh repented and God REACTED to Nineveh's choice to repent so God changed His predetermined course of action (Jeremiah 18:8-10) from showing no mercy in destroying Ninveh to showing mercy by repenting and not do the veil He said He would do.

If all is predetermined then no need for God to react to what men do and repent in changing His own course of action.

St_Worm2 said:

So, His "ordination" of everything that happens does not necessarily mean that He is the "cause" of everything that happens. If He ~caused/forced~ us to sin, for instance, then we could not be justly held to account for the sins that we commit, He would have to be (which is a point that you've already made).

--David
p.s. - God's "ordination" of whatsoever comes to pass is primarily/directly concerned with His sovereignty, not with our free will.

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Hi,


But if God 'ordains' all that comes to pass then He is the 'cause' of all that comes to pass.

There are some things God DECREED, for example, God decreed the world and universe into existence. What GOd decrees no man can deny or change. But when it comes to man's free will GOd does not issue decrees or predeterminations or ordinations violating man's free will.

Can you give me a Bible example of God ordaining some thing to happen yet not the cause of that thing happening?

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

In the early parts of my life I kind of assumed it was just bad luck if someone died but the more I lived the more I realized we don't control when we go. I now realize that God actually controls when we go and I personally believe he planned out every little detail of our lives. What do you guys think?

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I think both are true. I do not believe God steers every little decisions we make because many are of no consequence and some of our decisions are sinful. We decided and we did that, not God. If we say God controls every detail then it sounds like God is causing us to sin, and we know that isn't true.
God doesn't direct what cereal you are eating, not unless it somehow has something to do with the larger plan. If you were going to choke to death on a raisin in that cereal I am sure God would prompt you to eat something else if your dying that day would disrupt the larger plan. Lets say you are to bring someone to Christ in a years time, I believe God would make sure you were around to carry that out.
Joseph was destined to be ruler next to pharaoh, so he was always going to get there some how, but I don't believe God made the brothers throw him down the well since that was a sinful action. Rather God knew they would and that would cause Joseph to go to Egypt. Let's say the brothers had a change of heart and had not thrown him down there, then I think something else would have been used. Since God is outside of time and can already see what would happen other solutions didn't even need to come into it, because he already knew the brothers would throw him in and sell him.
Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Having looked into this issue a little more thoroughly, than a day or two ago. I believe that God has designed the world in such a way that He can know based upon the current state of things what outcomes are possible.

e.g. God writes down a story based upon expected outcomes, before the creation of the world.

God plans that A meet B, A witnesses to B. B then has a choice. God writes two alternative stories for them (before creation began).

A meets B => if saved B -> then story path Christian starts
=> if not saved B -> then story path still sinner starts

These stories will branch and cross branch, there being many people. But God can know all possible outcomes, and design the story in such a way that the cross occurs at the appointed time, that He returns at the appointed time.

Each of our stories are set, so that His overall plan is achieved. But we as people still have free will choice at each of the intersecting story paths.

God never in this system causes a person to sin, but has allowances, if they do, alternative story paths. i.e he knows a fist can be used in anger, although he never planned for a person to use it, he knew it could be used, so He made allowances for the sin in his story.

God before creation knew all of the outcomes. But only at the point in time that we are in the timeline, does God know what will occur ahead, becasue there is a free will element.

Butterball1 said:

The Bible says God is just therefore being unjust in focing men to do wrong then punish those men for the wrong God forced them to do is unjust, against God's nature.

Predetermine = force.

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Again with this 'force' business. You sure you read my posts?

How does "Predetermine" = "force"? I hope this next is not your proof.

Butterball1 said:

God does not CAUSE a person to do "A" against that person's will, with that person having no free will choice then claim that person chose to do "A".

Does God "coerce" men to do the things they do or did God predtermen, prepregram men to do what they do?

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"Predetermine" does not imply "against a person's will". Where do you get that? It may, it may not be against a person's.

God coerced Jonah. So what? But in fact, Jonah still chose, but under coercion. But why is that an either/or matter? He predetermined that Jonah would run from him, predetermined the storm, the fish, the logistics, the awesome appearance of this partially digested prophet, and the coercion.

This is really amazing. Why don't you complain God forces you to be born, forces you to die, forces you to run into all sorts of situations you would rather not get into?

Butterball1 said:

I did not ask to be born, that was my parents decision. But the issue here is did GOd before the world began already predetermine very little thing a man does with man having no choice in what GOD predtermeined for him.

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Moving the goalposts then?

Ok, I'll play. Here again, you pretend 'predetermine' automatically means man had no choice. So you are wrong. That is not the issue. You are making it the issue.

Butterball1 said:

To predetermine a man to do "A" is forcing that man to do "A". Free will is simply having the ability to choose between 2 or more options. When God predetermined that man to do "A" that man has no options to choose from that is different from "A". He MUST do "A", is FORCED by God into doing "A".

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This is an old argument, you should be able to see through all by yourself. If free will is simply having the ability to choose between 2 or more options, then I believe in free will. Predetermining those choices, not to mention predetermining the options, does not inhibit man's ability to choose. CAUSING those choices and options still does not inhibit man's ability to choose. Thrusting man into the situation where he chooses does not inhibit man's ability to choose.

Why do you represent predetermination with "He MUST do..."? --"He WILL do." Nevertheless, even if man MUST do, it is not forcing, if man wills to do, and chooses to do according to his own will.

Butterball1 said:

An online dictionary define predetermined as "established or decided in advance". What God predetermined man to do in adavance is GOD's choice, man has no choice in the matter.

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Repeating your mantra, and quoting the dictionary (a good definition, too!), doesn't advance your thesis.

Butterball1 said:

On another forum a Calvinist tried to argue God predetermines a man to do "A" therefore that man has free will choose to do "A" which was riduculous as an argument can get.

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Then you don't know the nature of First Cause. NOTHING will happen that God has not decreed.

Butterball1 said:

And God accomplished His will without violating man's free will but God has foreknowledge in what men of their own free will will choose to do and God uses man's choices to accomplish His will.

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God is just a spectator? And who said he ever violates man's will?

Butterball1 said:

Again God's purpose with Pahraoh was to 1) show His power over Pharaoh and 2) maginify His name in all the earth. Had Pharoah obeyed an let the people God, then God accomplished His twofold purpose. Pharoah chose to obey, God accomplished His twofold purpose using Phraoah's choice to disobey. So it made no difference if Pharoah chose to obey or not God was going to accomplish His pupose WITHOUT violating Pharoah's will but by letting Pharoah decide. Therefore it was always within the power of Pharaoh as to how God would accomplish His purpose..the easy way by Pharaoh choosing to obey or the hard way by choosing to disobey. Since Pharoah of his own free will chose to disobey God has no culpability in what Pharaoh chose for himself.

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Haven't I been saying God uses the agent's will to accomplish God's will? I didn't say he violates their will. You may as well drop that part of your mantra.

Butterball1 said:

No verse says God hardened Pharaoh's heart against Pharaoh's will, that idea is assumed into the trxts. I explained already by God creting a circumstance in putting Pharoah in a position to choose, and Pharoah of his own will chose to disobey, tehn in that sense God is said to harden his heart since GOd created the circumstance.

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Here we go again --against Pharoah's will??? Who brought that up? Why???

Butterball1 said:

There is also another sense in which it can be said God hardened Pharaoh's heart. There is a common idiom in Bible language where an active verb is used to say God did some thing when in reality God simply allowed, permitted it to happen. In Job chapters 1 and 2 God ALLOWED Satan to do things to Job and his children. Since God ALLOWED it to happen God is said to have brought those things to happen to Job, Job 42:11...."and they bemoaned him (Job), and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him". Again, Job 1 and 2 God ALLOWED Satan to do those those.
If it was God's purpose Israel be set free all God had to do was to wave His little finger, so to speak, and wipe out Pharoah and his army and Israel could easily walk away. But God has a purpose with Pahraoh himself (Romans 9:17) therefore God ALLOWED Pharaoh to disobey and God used Pharoah's disobedience to accomplish His own will. Since God ALLOWED it then God is said to harden Pharaoh's heart.

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Why not just, God and Pharoah both hardened Pharoah's heart?

Butterball1 said:

This explanation unquestionably clarifies the question of God hardening Pharaoh’s heart. When the text says that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, it means that God would permit or allow Pharaoh’s heart to be hardened."

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I love it when people say, "unquestionably" or "clearly" or such. Wonder why they find it helpful to do that? It's like saying, "it's very true", instead of saying, "it's true"; doesn't make it more true.

Sounds to me like someone wanted to excuse God from being accused for doing what he has no need nor wish to be excused for.

Butterball1 said:

God does not harden men's heart in order to force those men to diosbey Him just so God can punish those men. Being unjust is not in GOd's nature.

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'Force' again? Again, God uses their own will and choice to accomplish what he planned from the beginning. That is not forcing.

"Being unjust is not in God's nature." Why do you say that? OF COURSE it is not in his nature!!!

Butterball1 said:

God did not show mercy to Pharaoh. Had Pharoah at first chose to obey then none of the plagues would have happened to Egypt/Pharoah. Pharaoh chose to disobey so God did not show mercy but brought plagues to Pharaoh.

THis issue is the OP is wrong. God does not predetermine all a man does/all that happens to a man..

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Wow. God showed Pharoah all kinds of mercy! Pharoah should have died on the spot, the moment he first disobeyed! God allowed him the breath of life! I bet Pharoah even had something good to eat sometime during the events. Frog Legs! Yay!

Moving the goalposts a little further, then? Now the issue is God does not predetermine ALL a man does/ALL that happens to a man. (Maybe some?)

First you move the goalposts from Predetermining = Forcing, to a situation (being born) without God consulting you, then to baldly stating that God does not predetermine without giving man any choice. Now it's God predetermining All. --no mention of choice. Which are we discussing?

Butterball1 said:

You need to reread my posts.

What I did post was that God foreknew and predetemined Christ would die for the sins of man, but God did not predetermine that those Jews and Romans would reject and crucufy Christ against their will. God has foreknowledge and uses it. God foreknew that by sending Christ to earth at that time, God FOREKNEW those Jews and Romans of their own free will would reject Christ and crucify Him. Therefore GOd used THEIR free will choice to accomplish His will leaving God with no culpability in THEIR choice in crucifying Christ.

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In the post I was there commenting on, you did exactly as I described. I was not referencing your other posts.

By the way, look up a good meaning for the Biblical term, 'foreknow'.

Butterball1 said:

God said "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown" but that did not happen in 40 days. Does that mean God lied? No. For Nineveh repented and God REACTED to Nineveh's choice to repent so God changed His predetermined course of action (Jeremiah 18:8-10) from showing no mercy in destroying Ninveh to showing mercy by repenting and not do the veil He said He would do.

If all is predetermined then no need for God to react to what men do and repent in changing His own course of action.

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No. From the beginning God predetermined Ninevah to repent. His threat was valid --had they not repented he would have destroyed them.

Apparently you think I think a Calvinistic God would not react to repentance. Strange.

You say, "If all is predetermined then no need for God to react to what men do and repent in changing His own course of action". (I love it when you come up with these zingers to close out your posts.) NEED? What if he WANTS, and PLANS AHEAD to change his course? He loves repentance! He even predetermined it to happen!

coffee4u said:

Joseph was destined to be ruler next to pharaoh, so he was always going to get there some how, but I don't believe God made the brothers throw him down the well since that was a sinful action.

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Why not? The intent with which the brothers did their evil is expressed the same way as the intent with which God apparently planned the situation. "You indeed meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." In the NIV, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good. There's no need for fancy gymnastics here.

FutureAndAHope said:

Being a thread which is turning toward "election", some one is bound to bring up the case of Jaccob and Esau.

Rom 9:11-13 Before the children had come into existence, or had done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose and his selection might be effected, not by works, but by him whose purpose it is, It was said to her, The older will be the servant of the younger. Even as it is said, I had love for Jacob, but for Esau I had hate.


This is a very specific case, there were only two sons, if free will is the key to salvation, either of these sons could have been rigteous, or both sinners. God choose to bless, Jaccob, and the point of it is that as with the law of Moses, as with prophecy, it points to the fact that "not by works", why was Jaccob chosen not becasue he was righteous, no, he was chosen becasue he was the least deserving. As the second born, he had the lower status.

Some will, say that God purposefully hated Esau, condemned him to death, but that is not the case. Condemnation happens in the following way:

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to let his wrath and his power be seen, for a long time put up with the vessels of wrath which were ready for destruction:

We see that "Yes", pharoh was forced by God to resist the signs performed on Egypt, but He had first been proved a vessle of wrath "before hand", as we see God "for a long time put up with". Which fits with the passage "God is long suffering not willing that any perish but all come to salvation", there is a long suffering "before" God dictates our direction, be it for good, or everlasting correction.

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Notice that nowhere do you find in Romans 9 that God is saying anything about predestination of Jacob and Esau - that is Calvinistic eisegesis into the text.

God also doesn’t literally mean He hated Esau, anymore than Jesus literally said we must hate our mother and father in Luke 14:26 - that’s a Jewish idiom that means to love less, not to actually hate. We must love mother and father less than we love Jesus - and God loved Esau less, based on foreknowledge of Esau’s actions.

Jeremiah 18 is the potter and clay chapter, which is the scripture that Paul is referring to in Romans 9.


It refutes the Calvinist Romans 9 narrative, completely.


The potter and clay, and Jacob and Esau, is about NATIONS not individuals.


As Rebecca was told in Genesis 25:23 concerning her pregnancy: two nations are in your womb (Edom came from Esau, and Israel came from Jacob)


And Israel, the nation from Jacob is the clay on the potters wheel, not any one person.


The Potter and the Clay.

Jer 18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.

Jer 18:3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Jer 18:6 O house of ISRAEL , cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.


We also find in Jeremiah 18 that when the potter speaks blessing over any NATION and they turn evil, God takes back his blessing and punishes that nation, and also when the potter considers a nation a vessel fit for destruction and they repent, He changes His mind about punishing them.


No nation is predestined to destruction.


Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to DESTROY it;

Jer 18:8 If that NATION, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

Jer 18:10 If it do EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


This is the opposite of the reformed doctrine predestination narrative. The fate of the nations is dependent on what they do, not on being predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, and the Romans 9 potter and clay passage is not about predestination of individuals to hell, or to salvation.


God will have mercy on whom He will - and His will is He has mercy whenever there is repentance, and takes back His mercy, if they turn to doing evil.


That God changes His mind based on what a nation does (repentance) or doesn’t do right (turns to evil) absolutely wrecks reformed dogma regarding God being immutable.

Adrian Rogers does a good job of demolishing Calvinistic interpretation of Romans 9, and predestination:

Mark Quayle said:

No. From the beginning God predetermined Ninevah to repent. His threat was valid --had they not repented he would have destroyed them.

Apparently you think I think a Calvinistic God would not react to repentance. Strange.

You say, "If all is predetermined then no need for God to react to what men do and repent in changing His own course of action". (I love it when you come up with these zingers to close out your posts.) NEED? What if he WANTS, and PLANS AHEAD to change his course? He loves repentance! He even predetermined it to happen!

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Read Jeremiah 18, the potter and clay chapter, as it refutes your post.

Gods criteria of which nation He gives mercy to, is repentance - and it makes clear that if God blesses a nation and they turn to evil, He takes back the blessing and punishes them, and if a nation doing evil heeds warning and repents, He will give them mercy, and not destroy them.

No nation is predestined to destruction.


Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to DESTROY it;

Jer 18:8 If that NATION, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

Jer 18:10 If it do EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


This is the opposite of the reformed doctrine predestination narrative. The fate of the nations is dependent on what they do, not on being predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, and the Romans 9 potter and clay passage is not about predestination of individuals to hell, or to salvation.


God will have mercy on whom He will - and His will is He has mercy whenever there is repentance, and takes back His mercy, if they turn to doing evil.


That God changes His mind based on what a nation does (repentance) or doesn’t do right (turns to evil) absolutely wrecks reformed dogma regarding God being immutable.

.

chad kincham said:

Read Jeremiah 18, the potter and clay chapter, as it refutes your post.

Gods criteria of which nation He gives mercy to, is repentance - and it makes clear that if God blesses a nation and they turn to evil, He takes back the blessing and punishes them, and if a nation doing evil heeds warning and repents, He will give them mercy, and not destroy them.

No nation is predestined to destruction.


Jer 18:7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to DESTROY it;

Jer 18:8 If that NATION, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

Jer 18:10 If it do EVIL in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will REPENT of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


This is the opposite of the reformed doctrine predestination narrative. The fate of the nations is dependent on what they do, not on being predestined to be vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, and the Romans 9 potter and clay passage is not about predestination of individuals to hell, or to salvation.


God will have mercy on whom He will - and His will is He has mercy whenever there is repentance, and takes back His mercy, if they turn to doing evil.


That God changes His mind based on what a nation does (repentance) or doesn’t do right (turns to evil) absolutely wrecks reformed dogma regarding God being immutable.

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You posit a false narrative, where 'immutable' and 'predestination' (even 'predetermination') imply non-interaction post creation.

This is a little like the notion that God can be First Cause over our universe, but not over other possible universes. God changes what he does to us according to what we do, just like he told us he would do, and just like he always planned. Not only that, but he does what it takes to cause us to do what we do. He is not confused as to which thing is going to finally be the end of cycles.

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked."

BTW God 'changed his mind' means he relented, he changed course.

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:

Yeah I view hell as a place for those who aren't quite ready for the kingdom of God to be until they are ready. That all of the pain they experience there is necessary for them to become ready.

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Except he’ll is the holding cell for the damned awaiting judgment, then he’ll is thrown into the lake of fire, after the white throne judgment.