Do you think death is random?

[TedT]

WHY must they be by your version of 'free will'? Did we originate the will to love him? How is that possible when our will is set against him? Further, how can our free will decision have any integrity to it, apart from the act of God upon our will?

The hinge that allows this door to open is that I believe we were created with a free will before the foundation of the world. When we had matured enough HE taught us the gospel as I think Col 1:23 references. The decision we had to make was to accept YHWH's version of reality, that HE was a Trinity and our creator GOD and all salvation from any sin was only found in the Son OR to reject that definition of reality as a lie.

Those who put their faith, their unproven hope in HIM were chosen, elected, to be HIS Bride and promised salvation from any and all sin in the Son.

Those who rejected HIM as a liar and a false GOD were passed over for election as unfit to ever be HIS bride and were condemned on the spot.

Those elect who rebelled against the damnation of those who rejected HIM became themselves sinful forcing the postponement of the judgement lest they be pulled up also against HIS promise of salvation, Matt 13, the parable of the weeds.

The elect who stated true to their first faith became the holy angels working for HIM as angel is a job description, not a description of nature or race as created on earthers need to believe.

What if it is not our decision until after he has effected a change of will in us? I can't make sense of: "...any interference in our decision making as sinners by GOD is against our sinful will, not our free will which must be lost the instant we sin and only regained by our rebirth in Christ." But I see no problem with God doing something to us that our sinful will would not choose to do on its own. In fact, I thank God he has done that to you and me.

When referencing humans we are referencing only sinners and the rules (?) logistics (?) of HIS dealing with us as sinners, some reprobate, some elect, all with no free will, are NOT the same as the logistics of HIS dealing with us in our innocent free will, pre-election.

We came to HIM pre-election by our free will. As sinners on earth we are totally against HIM due to the influence of evil and need grace to come to HIM... different needs and abilities for different states of being, ie, innocent with a free will OR sinful with a will coerced by the addiction to evil.

Trying to apply the rules of salvation to be the same as the rules for election is troublesome and causes only confusion.

Hope this helped...

 

[TedT]

God can see the beginning the middle and the end of history and time as easily as we can see our room.

My problem with this pagan Greek definition of HIS being all knowing is that it seems to deny scripture. If it is true, then HE knew who would be damned to hell for all eternity before HE created them BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY!

Scripture is clear HE takes no pleasure in death nor desires the death and destruction of anyone. It is also obvious that all HE had to do to keep hell and death empty was to not create these people.

Since it seems to be written that some people indeed are going to an eternal hell, then I think we must revise our understanding of HIS being all knowing and quit blaspheming HIS pleasure and desires for us.

 

[TedT]

Jeremiah 1:5 God says "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations"

Have you considered this?
Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible sums it up well:
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee,.... Not merely by his omniscience, so he knows all men before their conception and birth; but with such a knowledge as had special love and affection joined with it; implying a personal relationship with not just knowledge about as per:
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

If the Scripture said, I knew thee when you were a little child, we would say that Jeremiah existed at that time. If it said, I knew thee when you were in the womb, we would interpret it as saying that Jeremiah existed at that time.

Why then, when the time moves back before the womb, does "I know thee" mean something else, to wit: “I knew about thee"? In the natural use of the word “knew", it is impossible to know someone before they exist, no matter how much you know about them.

We must be careful to not mix up knowing and knowing about which are two different things. For example, Christians know Jesus, demons know about Jesus. This difference is also brought out in Matthew 25:12, where Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not... to the five foolish virgins.

He obviously knew all about them, He just did not know them. Mighty big difference! Well this also means that there is a mighty big difference between GOD knowing Jeremiah and GOD knowing about Jeremiah.

Since I believe that GOD knows about this difference, then when GOD says to me that HE knew Jeremiah before his conception, I believe that GOD is sort of telling me that Jeremiah existed before his conception.

If GOD was not bearing witness to Jeremiah's pre-conception existence in this verse, would you please tell me what HE was revealing? Was it HIS omniscience, that is, was HE telling Jeremiah that HE knew all about him before HE made him in the womb, that is, before he was created?

But Jeremiah needed no revelation of GOD's omniscience. Jeremiah was a priest. He was trained in the Scriptures and the Jews knew about GOD's omniscience long before his time.

Well, many will accept anything but his pre-conception existence, sigh.

 

[timothyu]

Do angels have free will?

 

[TedT]

Do angels have free will?

I believe that everyone created in HIS image who accepted HIM as GOD OR who rejected HIM has/had a free will. Some angels are holy and elect, verses available, and some are demons and since holiness, election and demonhood can only accrue by a person by their free will decision to accept YHWH as GOD OR to reject HIM as a liar and false god...

so, yes, I see that all angels, elect and reprobate, had a free will but the reprobate demons and the sinful elect lost it when they chose sin.

 

[timothyu]

so, yes, I see that all angels, elect and reprobate, had a free will but the reprobate demons and the sinful elect lost it when they chose sin.

So why do we consider ourselves better than angels?

 

[Mark Quayle]

The hinge that allows this door to open is that I believe we were created with a free will before the foundation of the world. When we had matured enough HE taught us the gospel as I think Col 1:23 references. The decision we had to make was to accept YHWH's version of reality, that HE was a Trinity and our creator GOD and all salvation from any sin was only found in the Son OR to reject that definition of reality as a lie.

Those who put their faith, their unproven hope in HIM were chosen, elected, to be HIS Bride and promised salvation from any and all sin in the Son.

Those who rejected HIM as a liar and a false GOD were passed over for election as unfit to ever be HIS bride and were condemned on the spot.

Those elect who rebelled against the damnation of those who rejected HIM became themselves sinful forcing the postponement of the judgement lest they be pulled up also against HIS promise of salvation, Matt 13, the parable of the weeds.

The elect who stated true to their first faith became the holy angels working for HIM as angel is a job description, not a description of nature or race as created on earthers need to believe.



When referencing humans we are referencing only sinners and the rules (?) logistics (?) of HIS dealing with us as sinners, some reprobate, some elect, all with no free will, are NOT the same as the logistics of HIS dealing with us in our innocent free will, pre-election.

We came to HIM pre-election by our free will. As sinners on earth we are totally against HIM due to the influence of evil and need grace to come to HIM... different needs and abilities for different states of being, ie, innocent with a free will OR sinful with a will coerced by the addiction to evil.

Trying to apply the rules of salvation to be the same as the rules for election is troublesome and causes only confusion.

Hope this helped...

I honestly mean you no insult, but that sounds like you have gone to a lot of logistics to fit the facts to Freewill.

 

[coffee4u]

My problem with this pagan Greek definition of HIS being all knowing is that it seems to deny scripture. If it is true, then HE knew who would be damned to hell for all eternity before HE created them BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY!

Scripture is clear HE takes no pleasure in death nor desires the death and destruction of anyone. It is also obvious that all HE had to do to keep hell and death empty was to not create these people.

Since it seems to be written that some people indeed are going to an eternal hell, then I think we must revise our understanding of HIS being all knowing and quit blaspheming HIS pleasure and desires for us.

Having the ability to see everything does not make you responsible for them.

God wanted a people unto himself. I can only see two ways to that.
He could have made us so we had no other option but to love him. But that makes the loving rather meaningless since we would have had no choice. Would you approve of someone brainwashing you into loving and marrying them?

Or he can give the people free will, but yes some will choose Him and some won't. Those who don't are lost.

As to "damned to hell for all eternity" that is debatable as seen by threads on here.

 

[timothyu]

As to "damned to hell for all eternity" that is debatable as seen by threads on here.

Considering that means no eternal life, should man try and twist it for other purposes?

 

[coffee4u]

Considering that means no eternal life, should man try and twist it for other purposes?

You lost me. Should man twist what?

 

[timothyu]

You lost me. Should man twist what?

"damned to hell for all eternity" Making it sound like those not in the book of life will have eternal life for all eternity in the second death.

 

[coffee4u]

"damned to hell for all eternity" Making it sound like those not in the book of life will have eternal life for all eternity in the second death.

I would need to know which verse you are quoting to actually check what it says.

I don't pretend to be someone who understands everything to do with the end times. My thoughts are that God is both a loving and a just God so I trust him that what happens is for the best.

 

[TedT]

So why do we consider ourselves better than angels?

We, Kemosabe?

Misunderstandings of some of Paul's statements...

 

[TedT]

I honestly mean you no insult, but that sounds like you have gone to a lot of logistics to fit the facts to Freewill.

...whereas I feel that I have properly explained free will as the mechanism for how we got into this pickle which the created on earthers botch, trying to have a free but enslaved will at the same time...doublethink without the dissonance.

 

[TedT]

Having the ability to see everything does not make you responsible for them.

God wanted a people unto himself. I can only see two ways to that.
He could have made us so we had no other option but to love him. But that makes the loving rather meaningless since we would have had no choice. Would you approve of someone brainwashing you into loving and marrying them?

Or he can give the people free will, but yes some will choose Him and some won't. Those who don't are lost.

As to "damned to hell for all eternity" that is debatable as seen by threads on here.

Everything is debatable and contradictable...from scripture so that fact suggests no immediate attention must be paid. . But I do agree with your summation of the necessity of our free will to fulfill HIS desire for a marriage with us.

 

[Mark Quayle]

...whereas I feel that I have properly explained free will as the mechanism for how we got into this pickle which the created on earthers botch, trying to have a free but enslaved will at the same time...doublethink.

What are "created on earthers"? And, btw I don't see your explanation as any different from any other freewiller's --at least the believers among them. They all say the same; they don't want to disagree with Scripture, so they say we are enslaved (if they mention it at all) but free in certain ways. There is a large range of "free" vs "enslaved" but almost all of them claim some degree or means of choice apart from causality, as do you.

 

[TedT]

"damned to hell for all eternity" Making it sound like those not in the book of life will have eternal life for all eternity in the second death.

This certainly can fit the words of some scripture even though it does not fit some of the other interpretations of scripture...

 

[TedT]

What are "created on earthers"? And, btw I don't see your explanation as any different from any other freewiller's --at least the believers among them. They all say the same; they don't want to disagree with Scripture, so they say we are enslaved (if they mention it at all) but free in certain ways. There is a large range of "free" vs "enslaved" but almost all of them claim some degree or means of choice apart from causality, as do you.

This reflects the doublethink I mentioned, both at the same time, what a mess...whereas I separate the time of our free will from the time of our enslavement which was caused by our first decision to rebel.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We, Kemosabe?

Misunderstandings of some of Paul's statements...

I agree we are not --but will be. Higher, at least. We are made in God's image in some way Angels are not. This we will see 'when the Sons of God are revealed'.

Presently, however..... For example I have an Uncle who thought intelligence was the difference, I guess he thought this because of the type, quality and size of difference between us and animals. I told him I thought the angels would laugh.

I do think the fact of God's particular love for us, we who, have no merit deserving of God's love and sacrifice, being something the angels desire to look into, has something to do with it --something even the angels do not understand, but they love us simply because God does.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This reflects the doublethink I mentioned, both at the same time, what a mess...whereas I separate the time of our free will from the time of our enslavement which was caused by our first decision to rebel.

Same thing. Different squirm.