If God is all knowing, why did He create ....

Robrain said:

Ah, that makes more sense.

To me this is saying that yes, God did give up on us. Jesus appealed on our behalf (not because of anything thing we did so it's nothing we should brag about but simply because Jesus loves us) and Jesus put us back in to God's good graces. It says "before the beginning of time" so I'm assuming this happened a long time ago. Then it was revealed that He is the one who did this for us when He came to Earth.

Were you trying to tie this in to when I mentioned that we would be judged according to our works?

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Freth said:

This question is asked all of the time on Christian forums and you'll get many different answers; but there is only one Word.

The answer is simple. God is love.

Let's zoom out to before creation, before the foundation of the world.

Matthew 13:35 KJV That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 25:34 KJV Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Luke 11:50 KJV That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.

John 17:24 KJV Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 KJV According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

Hebrews 4:3 KJV For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 9:26 KJV For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1 Peter 1:20 KJV Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

Revelation 13:8 KJV And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 KJV The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.​

I included all verses that contain the words "foundation" and "world", to prove a point.

God had a plan before creation.

• We were all loved before creation.
• The Son of God knew He had to come in the flesh and be a sacrifice for us. Not only this, but the blood of the prophets was planned to be shed before the foundation of the world, as a requirement for God's plan.
  
• Secrets were sealed up until the appropriate times in earth history (Daniel, Revelation, et al).
• God knew many would be lost, before they were even created, but He created them anyway.
• We were chosen to be in Him from the foundation of the world, but whether we do or not is our choice.

God didn't make a mistake, He planned it out from the very beginning. The complexity of such a plan shows incredible forethought and design.

Why would God allow us to suffer through sin rather than eliminating it? Again, let's take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

This is about all of God's creation. Not just Lucifer, not just a third of the angels of heaven who fell, not just fallen humanity. It's about the totality of God's created beings being witness to the corruption that disobedience against His plan for His creation causes. Sinless created beings are watching all of this unfold. If God was unjust, all of the angels would've rebelled, but two thirds of them stayed on God's side and stood behind Him. All of the unfallen creation of God are witness to why sin cannot be allowed to exist anymore. The full consequences are on display in earth's six thousand year history.

God knew that the only way was for us to learn from our mistakes and see the full effects of sin. A child who is coddled will become spoiled.

All of creation is given free will to choose. God works through our failings to restore us to our rightful place. He chose the long way around, to give us a way out, even sent His own Son to die so that we might be saved. Everything He does is just, right and true and reflects His character, His love for His creation.

God could've just as easily decided not to create us in the first place, but if it hadn't been us it would've been another of God's creation. One had to fall to show the universe the true consequences of disobedience.

God's intricate plan shows His love for us and the lengths He's willing to go to save us.

God uses trials to bring forth His character in us. Righteousness, holiness, truth, love. Suffering and death are the result of the ripple effect of sin. Like pebbles dropped in a pond, each sin can have far-reaching consequences—which is the point, the lesson, why we shouldn't sin.

Now let's address "legalism".

Many Christians are quick to dismiss the righteous and holy life we are called to. We're "okay" as long as we believe. God is calling us to a high standard for a reason, because we are to go live with Him. That's a huge gap to bridge. God is trying to shape our character in preparation for our heavenly reward. His character.

Some Christians love to tout God's grace, the free gift of salvation, while living how they want to live. Not coming to the realization that God's grace is given, but can also be taken away. Jesus makes this clear.

Matthew 7:23 KJV And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Revelation 3:15-16 KJV I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

John 14:15,21 KJV If ye love me, keep my commandments ... He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Revelation 14:12 KJV Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14-15 KJV Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
​

Jesus makes it clear, in no uncertain terms, that legalism is expected. I don't understand how obedience can be dismissed under the blanket of grace when even Paul says it's not how grace works.

Romans 6:1-2 KJV What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
​

Dead to sin means not being condemned by the law because you are obeying the law, out of love for Him; it's not a burden but a desire to do God's will.

Believing is justification. Obeying is sanctification (sinlessness, holiness, righteousness imbued). The law shows the difference in our hearts, in our character. If we're professing to believe in God, but we're not manifesting His will in our lives, we are taking the Lord's name in vain; having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof.

If we are to walk as He walked (1 John 2:6), to be perfect like our Father in heaven (Matthew 5:48), then there is only one way to do that—obedience.

Worship is going to be a key issue when the mark of the beast is brought forward. On the surface, worship seems simple enough, but when you take into consideration the lengths to which God has gone to impress upon us the importance of obedience, we can see that it's way deeper than just going to church and professing to be a Christian.

Have you ever noticed that Christians obsess over what the mark of the beast is, but never stop to consider what the Seal of God is? If the key issue is worship, what is the Seal?

Name, Title, Territory.
God, Creator, Heaven and Earth.

Revelation 14:6-7 KJV And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.​

The Seal of God is in the creation account, in the Ten Commandments given on Mt. Sinai, in the Exodus, in Revelation (Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Exodus 31:13, Revelation 14:6-11).

God is sending clear messages to His people, through His word. It's up to us to listen and obey.

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Freth said:

The Nephilim were a product of created beings exercising free will. It's apparent that God chooses to give a great degree of free will lattitude to His creation. This isn't a mistake, it's God showing great love and mercy until the most extreme circumstances of irredeemability.

A few examples:

• Noah's flood. Noah knew 100 years before the flood that it was going to happen and had plenty of time to let people know, but not one (aside from his family) believed it would happen. At that time, they were called irredeemable.
• Sodom and Gomorrah. God destroyed the cities because of their wickedness after it was determined that none could be saved.
• The Second Coming. God holds off until the very last possible moment and even shortens the time of the tribulation, because of the devastation. God promises to protect His people from harm during these events.

Clear examples of deliberate patience and mercy.

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Mink61 said:

Depends on what bible you're using.

The Catholic bible has an additional 7 books that the KJV doesn't have. Free will is mentioned in some of those books, especially in The Wisdom of Ben Sira(ch), Chapter 15.

"Do not say: “It was God’s doing that I fell away,”
for what he hates he does not do.
12 Do not say: “He himself has led me astray,”
for he has no need of the wicked.
13 Abominable wickedness the Lord hates
and he does not let it happen to those who fear him.

14 God in the beginning created human beings
and made them subject to their own free choice.
15 If you choose, you can keep the commandments;
loyalty is doing the will of God.
16 Set before you are fire and water;
to whatever you choose, stretch out your hand.
17 Before everyone are life and death,
whichever they choose will be given them.

18 Immense is the wisdom of the Lord;
mighty in power, he sees all things.
19 The eyes of God behold his works,
and he understands every human deed.
20 He never commands anyone to sin,
nor shows leniency toward deceivers.

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Jaxxi said:

Vanity is a sin no matter how you look at it. Jewelry was introduced to the Egyptians by demons and it is not of God. It was worn by pagans. Whether you choose to play with your eternal life is your business but no one will enter heaven wearing the property of the devil. Do what you want. Look nice for who? The Lord does not think it looks nice.

Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 1 Peter 3:3

It does not say what your intent is for wearing them . It says " Trying to look beautiful should not come from wearing jewelry"! That is cut and dry, and personally wearing jewelry for a bunch of people who cannot save you from hell has no bearing compared to not wearing it for the One who can. I mean what if you are wrong? Will it have been worth it to " look nice"? Guess we won't know until the end. Wearing it shows disobedience because we know The Lord does not like it. You are free to do what you want. That is your choice.

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Freth said:

This question is asked all of the time on Christian forums and you'll get many different answers; but there is only one Word.

The answer is simple. God is love.

Let's zoom out to before creation, before the foundation of the world.

Matthew 13:35 KJV That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 25:34 KJV Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Luke 11:50 KJV That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation.

John 17:24 KJV Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 KJV According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

Hebrews 4:3 KJV For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 9:26 KJV For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1 Peter 1:20 KJV Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

Revelation 13:8 KJV And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 KJV The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.​

I included all verses that contain the words "foundation" and "world", to prove a point.

God had a plan before creation.

• We were all loved before creation.
• The Son of God knew He had to come in the flesh and be a sacrifice for us. Not only this, but the blood of the prophets was planned to be shed before the foundation of the world, as a requirement for God's plan.
  
• Secrets were sealed up until the appropriate times in earth history (Daniel, Revelation, et al).
• God knew many would be lost, before they were even created, but He created them anyway.
• We were chosen to be in Him from the foundation of the world, but whether we do or not is our choice.

God didn't make a mistake, He planned it out from the very beginning. The complexity of such a plan shows incredible forethought and design.

Why would God allow us to suffer through sin rather than eliminating it? Again, let's take a step back and look at the bigger picture.

This is about all of God's creation. Not just Lucifer, not just a third of the angels of heaven who fell, not just fallen humanity. It's about the totality of God's created beings being witness to the corruption that disobedience against His plan for His creation causes. Sinless created beings are watching all of this unfold. If God was unjust, all of the angels would've rebelled, but two thirds of them stayed on God's side and stood behind Him. All of the unfallen creation of God are witness to why sin cannot be allowed to exist anymore. The full consequences are on display in earth's six thousand year history.

God knew that the only way was for us to learn from our mistakes and see the full effects of sin. A child who is coddled will become spoiled.

All of creation is given free will to choose. God works through our failings to restore us to our rightful place. He chose the long way around, to give us a way out, even sent His own Son to die so that we might be saved. Everything He does is just, right and true and reflects His character, His love for His creation.

God could've just as easily decided not to create us in the first place, but if it hadn't been us it would've been another of God's creation. One had to fall to show the universe the true consequences of disobedience.

God's intricate plan shows His love for us and the lengths He's willing to go to save us.

God uses trials to bring forth His character in us. Righteousness, holiness, truth, love. Suffering and death are the result of the ripple effect of sin. Like pebbles dropped in a pond, each sin can have far-reaching consequences—which is the point, the lesson, why we shouldn't sin.

Now let's address "legalism".

Many Christians are quick to dismiss the righteous and holy life we are called to. We're "okay" as long as we believe. God is calling us to a high standard for a reason, because we are to go live with Him. That's a huge gap to bridge. God is trying to shape our character in preparation for our heavenly reward. His character.

Some Christians love to tout God's grace, the free gift of salvation, while living how they want to live. Not coming to the realization that God's grace is given, but can also be taken away. Jesus makes this clear.

Matthew 7:23 KJV And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Revelation 3:15-16 KJV I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

John 14:15,21 KJV If ye love me, keep my commandments ... He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Revelation 14:12 KJV Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14-15 KJV Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
​

Jesus makes it clear, in no uncertain terms, that legalism is expected. I don't understand how obedience can be dismissed under the blanket of grace when even Paul says it's not how grace works.

Romans 6:1-2 KJV What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
​

Dead to sin means not being condemned by the law because you are obeying the law, out of love for Him; it's not a burden but a desire to do God's will.

Believing is justification. Obeying is sanctification (sinlessness, holiness, righteousness imbued). The law shows the difference in our hearts, in our character. If we're professing to believe in God, but we're not manifesting His will in our lives, we are taking the Lord's name in vain; having a form of Godliness, but denying the power thereof.

If we are to walk as He walked (1 John 2:6), to be perfect like our Father in heaven (Matthew 5:48), then there is only one way to do that—obedience.

Worship is going to be a key issue when the mark of the beast is brought forward. On the surface, worship seems simple enough, but when you take into consideration the lengths to which God has gone to impress upon us the importance of obedience, we can see that it's way deeper than just going to church and professing to be a Christian.

Have you ever noticed that Christians obsess over what the mark of the beast is, but never stop to consider what the Seal of God is? If the key issue is worship, what is the Seal?

Name, Title, Territory.
God, Creator, Heaven and Earth.

Revelation 14:6-7 KJV And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.​

The Seal of God is in the creation account, in the Ten Commandments given on Mt. Sinai, in the Exodus, in Revelation (Genesis 2:1-3, Exodus 20:8-11, Exodus 31:13, Revelation 14:6-11).

God is sending clear messages to His people, through His word. It's up to us to listen and obey.

Click to expand...

JDD_III said:

Well, sorry you got seemingly judgemental responses for asking just a question.

Some people have discussed free will, I think this extends to celestial beings as part of God's creation similar to humans, but in a different way not revealed to us here. The problem is we also don't know exactly how it will end or how it could have gone in a different way. Maybe how we find the situation with Lucifer and all of humanity's state is the most optimal to allow free will and maximal redemption of the most number of people? We would expect nothing less from an all-knowing timeless Creator. (My point is reversing the question a bit - we assume that not having X means outcome Y is better but we can't know that answer and it is a large assumption that has near infinite other variables to consider).

I would say though, this still comes back to the problem of allowing non-redemption. What is there to be gained from this? Well, one consideration is perhaps that if a Creator God wanted a relationship with His creatures and wanted them to know maximally his major attributes, how would we ever know grace, mercy, forgiveness, justice without those existing that demonstrate we are recipients of such attributes as grace, mercy, forgiveness etc?

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