Null/Voided Out

Llewelyn Stevenson said:

His yoke is easy because, when he indwells you, he gives you the ability to do these things. Do not trust your abilities, trust his.

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So why isn't He indwelling me despite my numerous requests for Him to do so?

Agallagher said:

What are your thoughts on this subject.

Is following Christ Jesus Christ a choice?

Did Matthew when Jesus stated ‘follow me’ make the choice to do so? Maybe this one was predestined?

Either way, can people make the choice to follow God or completely reject him in this life? Or is it a preordained thing and only some people get to the choice to?

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When two people meet and fall in love, there are choices and also inevitability.

Jesus told the apostles they were chosen. Jesus chose us, everyone who would open the door, listen and follow. Equally in response, hearts can be hard so it means little, and just bounces off.

Jesus implies we do not choose the soil we are. When he talks of good teachers and false teachers it does not appear they choose how they are.

Thorns and thistles in the heart, stubborn wills that will not repent, though they know the words, sin and blasphemy dominate. They will ask do I have to love my enemy?

So core is this in the cross, to not see it, they are blind, poor, empty. I have been staggad by this, and conclude choice cannot summarise the complexity of the Kingdom, but love does. We love our Lord and Saviour, Amen.

One pastor claimed I spoke these words out of indoctrination, which is how he felt projected on to me. He held a distant substitution theology for sin, like an accountant balancing the books. To me this is so cold, I would be dead to be like this, with a heart of stone. No greater love is there than to die for ones enemies that they might be saved. That is our King, Hallelujah, Amen.

God bless you

Lucian Hodoboc said:

So why isn't He indwelling me despite my numerous requests for Him to do so?

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He is but you are not believing and listening. Your emotional feelings do not define reality, your listening and following do.

Many ask, "I want God to speak to me today!"

The Bible is there, it is everything you need, if you will listen. It takes time, change, cleansing, patience, discipline brokeness, repentance, humbleness, becoming less and seeing more in those around you.

Our wills, our hearts, our desires fight against this work, because we are sons of rebellion not obedience.

God bless you

Lawrence87 said:

Do this mean essentially that before someone is born God has decided whether they will go to hell or not? Rather than allowing them to freely come to Him or not.

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That is the belief, yes. More Christians reject the idea than accept it, but that is the meaning of the word.

Albion said:

That is the belief, yes. More Christians reject the idea than accept it, but that is the meaning of the word.

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That does not accord with a loving God by any stretch of the imagination. What God would condemn someone to hell irrespective of any choices that they make in their life? Or limit someone's choices so as to condemn someone...

Why wouldn't a loving God predestine everyone to salvation?

Lawrence87 said:

That does not accord with a loving God by any stretch of the imagination.

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That's not necessarily so.

If it is true that God is love, it is also true that he is just. There are no mortals who deserve eternal bliss with God, not on account of those persons' own efforts. So if God deigns to grant it to some of his creatures anyway, that's love.

Albion said:

That's not necessarily so.

If it is true that God is love, it is also true that he is just. There are no mortals who deserve eternal bliss with God, not on account of those persons' own efforts. So if God deigns to grant it to some of his creatures anyway, that's love.

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Do you think God CAN grant someone entrance to heaven that isn't born of the Spirit? I mean could He possibly do so? Maybe it would go against His nature of being holy and just? What do you think?

zoidar said:

Do you think God CAN grant someone entrance to heaven that isn't born of the Spirit? I mean could He possibly do so?

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I don't think so. But the doctrine we call predestination doesn't assume that he will, either.

When predestination is referred to, it means that God chooses whom he will...but not to be saved just like that! It means that God chooses the people to whom he will give Faith and it is Faith that saves, just as the Bible stipulates.

Albion said:

That's not necessarily so.

If it is true that God is love, it is also true that he is just. There are no mortals who deserve eternal bliss with God, not on account of those persons' own efforts. So if God deigns to grant it to some of his creatures anyway, that's love.

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I don't really understand the position.

I have no problem with the idea that God foreknows who will and will not attain salvation. But this is not through it being decided by God beforehand with no influence from the individual, but rather through the free actions of the individual, who chose to accept Christ as saviour through faith and acted accordingly. In other words God knows the choices you are going to make but does not decide them for you.

Predestination appears to me to say that the choices do not matter. That free will is intact but makes no difference. Either that or the choices are not choices, because God decided for you that you are to be saved, and thus you have no choice but to act accordingly. Either way it seems as though God is just creating people who have no choice but to suffer eternal torment, no matter what choices they make, or he is creating people who cannot help but act in such a way as to deserve damnation, both of which are kinda sadistic.

Please correct me if my intepretation is wrong.

Lawrence87 said:

I don't really understand the position.

I have no problem with the idea that God foreknows who will and will not attain salvation.

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Well, virtually no one does have a problem with that.

But this is not through it being decided by God beforehand with no influence from the individual, but rather through the free actions of the individual, who chose to accept Christ as saviour through faith and acted accordingly. In other words God knows the choices you are going to make but does not decide them for you.

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That's foreknowledge, all right, but it doesn't do much to help us understand predestination.

Predestination appears to me to say that the choices do not matter.

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Not at all! It says that God allows the person who is predestined to make the choice that saves.

That free will is intact but makes no difference.

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About choosing God or not, you mean. That's what we are dealing with, not all sorts of other of life's choices.

Either that or the choices are not choices, because God decided for you that you are to be saved, and thus you have no choice but to act accordingly. Either way it seems as though God is just creating people who have no choice but to suffer eternal torment, no matter what choices they make, or he is creating people who cannot help but act in such a way as to deserve damnation, both of which are kinda sadistic.

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I have neve decided, one way or the other, on the issue (predestination) myself. However, the idea of being given, free and clear, the greatest thing that anyone could aspire to, that which humans throughout history have hoped for...has always seemed to me to be the ultimate in love. The notion that being chosen to receive that gift makes the recipient into a robot or that the gift denies him his free will chance to go straight to hell at death seems to me like a silly view of the matter.

Beanieboy said:

Can you define what the will of man/God is?
Can you explain the difference?

My understanding of following Jesus is loving your neighbor, and when you love your neighbor, you love God. It's never been about sin, and refraining from it, but focusing on loving your neighbor actively.

At every moment, we choose.

I don't believe there is predestination, which implies that some are chosen, and some are not, and condemned with no free will. Rather, all are loved, are children of God, and the choice is whether you accept that, choose to accept God's love, and allow him to heal and change you through divine love.

I believe one reason some people prefer pre-d is that it implies that God chooses only some people, because he only loves some people, not all, so the believer can pick and choose whom they love as well. ("Don't even the pagans do that?"(")

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Good Day, Beanie

So when God chose Israel for himself from all other nations you take that to mean he did not love the other nations as much or at all?

deu 14:2For you are a people holy to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

All are loved children of God... where does scripture teach that. Do not confuse creator with father.

John 8:44

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Clearly these are not God's children

In Him,

Bill

When the Lord delivered me the Holy Spirit said, “never forget you chose.” It was an important reminder that God didn’t twist my arm or force me to follow Him. I did so of my own volition.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

bèlla said:

When the Lord delivered me the Holy Spirit said, “never forget you chose.” It was an important reminder that God didn’t twist my arm or force me to follow Him. I did so of my own volition.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

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Good Day, Bella

Your choosing was a direct result of the work of the Lord in delivering you (cause and effect)... he was the cause of your choice, and you for filled his purpose for you. He knew exactly what he need to do to get what He intended for you to His own glory.

Salvation is of the Lord, His purposes never fail!

In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Bella

Your choosing was a direct result of the work of the Lord in delivering you (cause and effect)... he was the cause of your choice, and you for filled his purpose for you. He knew exactly what he need to do to get what He intended for you to His own glory.

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Hi Bill,

Actually, that isn’t correct. I was a believer before my deliverance. I returned to God in a Jewish synagogue. The message was given to me for other reasons.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

bèlla said:

Hi Bill,

Actually, that isn’t correct. I was a believer before my deliverance. I returned to God in a Jewish synagogue. The message was given to me for other reasons.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

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Good Day,

Very novel... from what were you delivered then.

I was delivered from the domain of darkness to the domain of light.

Would you consider your self to be adopted by God and made his child by his adoption.

What is your view on the new Covenant regeneration in Hebrews?

In Him,

Bill

It helps to consider Isaiah 66:4 . . .


(editing to supplement my response starting here)

Since the time COVID hit the U.S. hard, I have read through much of the Bible, and I noted verses as I went along that indicate the importance of the heart of man responding to God's call, and the responsibility that people have responding to His call. It also helped me to keep in mind that the Hebrew understanding of "faith" is trust, a God-given system for trusting. The bold/underlined text are verses that spoke to me deeply at the time.

Ø 1 John 2:1-2, 24-25

Ø 1 Peter 1:8-9; 3:6

Ø 2 John 1:8-9

Ø 2 Kings 23:27

Ø 2 Peter 2:21-22; 3:9, 17-18

Ø Acts 17:27; 26:18

Ø Deuteronomy 4:29; 7:9-10; 8:18-20

Ø Isaiah 45:8, 10, 22; 66:4

Ø James 4:7-10

Ø Jeremiah 3:14

Ø John 13:2; 15:2-6, 14-15, 17; 3:21; 5:40, 44; 7:17; 8:29-33; John 8:51

Ø Jude 21

Ø Luke 14:24; 15:21-22, 32; 21:19; 7:23

Ø Matthew 10:22; 13:15

Ø Proverbs 28:14: Proverbs 3:1,3; 8:17

Ø Psalms 145:9, 13, 17-20

Ø Revelation 22:17-19; 3:4-6, 11-12, 16, 19, 21

Ø Romans 10:4, 8-13; 11:11-12, 15, 18-24, 32; 2:7-11; 8:12-17
__________
Except where noted, Scripture is taken from the HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION ®. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society. Used by Permission of Zondervan. All rights reserved. Any bold, underlined, and italicized are mine.

God would not be a just God if he condemned people to hell not based on their choices or actions. Of course it is our choice to go to either heaven or hell just as much as we choose to breathe every 2 minutes.

Heaven or hell is a free choice, it's just that its impossible to make the choice of heaven if God doesn't "fix" you so to speak first. But, that doesn't mean that you any more or less chose God.

But, if you aren't "fixed" so to speak that doesn't mean that you didn't choose hell. You did by your own free will actions.

Let me use an example. Did Judas have the free will choice to go to heaven? Yes he did. What did he choose in the end? To become overcome with grief and eliminate his only chance at salvation by hanging himself. While yes, Judas's choice was predestined by God to fulfill scripture, Judas still willingly chose to hang himself. Every single human being every single day makes a free will choice of Heaven or Hell and we go to either place based on our predestined choices. But, that doesn't negate the fact that, we in fact made the choice.

We willingly choose to sin and there's a consequence to that action because God is a Just God. We cannot say anything is unfair because 1. We aren't God and cannot tell God how to be God and 2. We all deserve to be punished, whether we want to admit it or not. It's obtaining God's MERCY that's important here and only God can give that. Hope I'm making sense. If not, I apologize.