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Strong in Him

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Strong in him, why do you not believe in predestination?

Because, unless I've misunderstood it, it seems to be about God making a random choice about whether or not he will save a person. I don't believe that God would create all mankind in his image and then say "I'll choose to save and help this one, but not that one" - salvation according to the whim of God.

For you would to say you were predestined would that give you a sense of being prideful?

??
 
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mlepfitjw

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Because, unless I've misunderstood it, it seems to be about God making a random choice about whether or not he will save a person. I don't believe that God would create all mankind in his image and then say "I'll choose to save and help this one, but not that one" - salvation according to the whim of God.



??

Good morning Strong in Him. The second question was just how you would have felt if you believed in the predestination. What you are saying I am in agreement with, hope that you have a wonderful morning.

To anyone else this may be the final response I have on the situation: Following Christ is a Choice?
 
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Strong in Him

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Good morning Strong in Him. The second question was just how you would have felt if you believed in the predestination.

Oh, sorry.
It's hard to say what I might feel. I suppose I might be tempted to think that God had chosen me because there was something special about me - and as you say, that would lead to pride.
But it might also be rather scary. There is nothing special about me; no reason why I'm better than anyone else. Which would mean that the choice was totally on a whim from God. And surely if he could choose me, he could just as easily dump, or reject, me if I did something too bad or was too slow in obeying/understanding something.

hope that you have a wonderful morning.

Than you; you too.
 
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martymonster

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What are your thoughts on this subject.

Is following Christ Jesus Christ a choice?

Did Matthew when Jesus stated ‘follow me’ make the choice to do so? Maybe this one was predestined?

Either way, can people make the choice to follow God or completely reject him in this life? Or is it a preordained thing and only some people get to the choice to?

Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
 
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Strong in Him

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Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

The thing is that the disciples didn't choose Jesus because they didn't really know him, and they certainly didn't know about the cross, resurrection, coming of the Spirit etc. When we hear the Gospel, we know about all these things and have almost 2000 years of teaching and Christian testimony.
There were people who did choose to follow Jesus - like Bartimaeus, Mark 10:52.
 
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zoidar

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Hey Zoidar, how are you feeling? Hope you been doing better lately friend. :) I believe you did make a great question with the wording you chose. You are right it is only speculation about Matthew. Also in your 10 year search solid case evidence is needed to be able to choose whether or not a person accepts Gods forgiveness.

Thanks for asking! I feel better but there is something bubbling under the surface, don't know what will be of that and some depression and anxiety lingering. When I got born again in 2010 I thought my struggles with mental health would be over. But I guess it didn't work out that way. But I'm happy, I have my heart in Christ, and I have been blessed. I'm thankful!

Back to the topic. Before I was a Christian, I was very sincere with finding the truth. I was into Eastern religion because I thought the truth was there. I asked "enlightened" teachers a lot about what it means to be enlightened. What I found was not the answer to life. Some of these enlightened teachers were very poor in moral. So I was in a place I didn't know where to look for truth. Then God started to show me what was missing, the person of Christ. I found that I had ignored God my whole life, been living for myself. I didn't know if God would forgive me, but He did, and I can't be thankful enough.

Choice, or no choice? I believe we have a choice to follow Christ. It's just not as simple as choosing tea or coffee. We need to be convinced of truth to choose Jesus. That is a work of God in us. It seems most people are resisting truth, until they are convinced of truth. When I ask people how they got saved, we got all kinds of different stories. There is a choice, yet we won't choose Christ without the Holy Spirit directing us.
 
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Hmm

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Either way, can people make the choice to follow God or completely reject him in this life? Or is it a preordained thing and only some people get to the choice to?

There's no way of knowing absolutely but I do know that if God did preordain some people to heaven and some to hell that I'd be a lot happier with the alternative!

God is love so the very idea of God preordaining some people to hell is completely nuts, as well as profoundly immoral and unChristian. I've already had a warning for saying this but ah well!
 
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BNR32FAN

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What are your thoughts on this subject.

Is following Christ Jesus Christ a choice?

Did Matthew when Jesus stated ‘follow me’ make the choice to do so? Maybe this one was predestined?

Either way, can people make the choice to follow God or completely reject him in this life? Or is it a preordained thing and only some people get to the choice to?

Well here’s a few examples of scriptures that indicate a choice.

Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL REPAY EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life; but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Look! For three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ But he answered and said to him, ‘Sir, leave it alone for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

““I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Remain in Me, and I in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself but must remain in the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you remain in Me, and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I also have loved you; remain in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her sexual immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
 
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BNR32FAN

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MMXX, What about according to just the human condition itself outside of the isms? Did eve have the mind to make a choice to eat from the tree of good and evil? Or was it preordained?

Lucian, loving God, and loving others.

It wouldn’t have made any sense for God to forbid Adam & Eve from eating the forbidden fruit if they were incapable of refraining from doing so. It also wouldn’t be just for God to punish them if they were incapable of complying with His commandment.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Hello, Lucian.

What Jesus was saying was that trying to live up to the Old Testament law and do it perfectly, plus the innumerable other legalisms of the Hebrew religion, was indeed burdensome. BUT that his yoke by contrast is easy because, in place of all of that, he takes the burden upon himself! We are then freed to accept that he fulfills all those demands in our stead.

Do not go through life thinking that you must satisfy every item on some "to do" devotional checklist. That would depress and discourage anyone, especially because it's impossible to accomplish perfectly, let alone consistently!

Actually it was Paul who wrote that in 1 Corinthians 13.
 
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timothyu

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Predestination is the same as a rough description of Daoism where a person's life path is set at the moment of birth according to conditions in the universe at the moment. The path is set but side trips can be many. People are carried along in the flow in the way people see themselves as carried along by the will of God. God may or may not use any human for His purpose. We do not need to be knowingly of God to be used by God. And in the same way that some seeds fall by the wayside and are consumed by the woes of the world, likewise Daoists can by choice distract themselves from their natural flow/predestined ways and fall out of harmony with the universe. Interesting that the two seemingly similar religious concepts of God started at about the same time. One could say Jesus was born for a purpose and followed through without falling to the wayside or losing harmony with His purpose. Daoists it seems could use Him as an example also.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Predestination is the same as a rough description of Daoism where a person's life path is set at the moment of birth according to conditions in the universe at the moment. The path is set but side trips can be many. People are carried along in the flow in the way people see themselves as carried along by the will of God. God may or may not use any human for His purpose. We do not need to be knowingly of God to be used by God. And in the same way that some seeds fall by the wayside and are consumed by the woes of the world, likewise Daoists can by choice distract themselves from their natural flow/predestined ways and fall out of harmony with the universe. Interesting that the two seemingly similar religious concepts of God started at about the same time. One could say Jesus was born for a purpose and followed through without falling to the wayside or losing harmony with His purpose. Daoists it seems could use Him as an example also.

Ive seen atheists use this kind of reasoning to remain atheist by claiming that God has not allowed them to believe otherwise they would have no choice but to believe. I believe this is nothing more than their own desire to reject the gospel not because God has in some way hindered them from being able to believe because in order for God to rightly judge and punish them they must be made capable of meeting His expectations. No one will be able to stand before God on judgement day and say “I didn’t believe because you didn’t allow me to”.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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My counselor brought this point up to me today: What about sociopaths? People that can’t feel any emotion? If they wanted to follow Christ, then could they make that choice?
Then does that the choice to follow Jesus is an emotional one?

Look up David Wood's testimony on YouTube and I think he has a video specifically talking about how his sociopathic nature has no impact on his decision.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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MMXX, What about according to just the human condition itself outside of the isms? Did eve have the mind to make a choice to eat from the tree of good and evil? Or was it preordained?

Lucian, loving God, and loving others.
I'm not sure you can separate out from the 'isms' since they are the way most Christians view this very issue.

To me, if Eve was preordained to choose to eat, then she cannot be held responsible for the action. The one who is responsible is the one who ordained it and they should be the one punished not her.

In other words preordination of this event makes God responsible and makes him a manipulator.

Hence I reject preordination to that degree.
 
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timothyu

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I believe this is nothing more than their own desire to reject the gospel not because God has in some way hindered them from being able to believe because in order for God to rightly judge and punish them they must be made capable of meeting His expectations.
Agreed.
 
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timothyu

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The one who is responsible is the one who ordained it and they should be the one punished not her.

In other words preordination of this event makes God responsible and makes him a manipulator.

Hence I reject preordination to that degree.
Yes or they wouldn't have found it necessary to remove them from the Garden and the tree of life
Genesis 3:
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
 
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