Daniel 2:44 The Kingdom That Breaks All Other Kingdoms

sovereigngrace · Nov 25, 2020

Douggg said:
I guess it is kinda hard for you to say that Jesus and the disciples were entering Jerusalem when Jesus cursed the fig tree beside the road, and not Israel.

What is your point?

Douggg · Nov 25, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
What are you talking about? Please elaborate in detail. You know, like I did. Your drive by one liner statements don't cut it.

Jesus was emphasizing the certainty of what he had said about the abomination of desolation to take place after the gospel had been preached to all nations as a witness, that even though it would not happen for a long time from the disciples' generation, that those events in Matthew 24:15-31 would take place.

Spiritual Jew said:
When Jesus said "the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." (Matt 24:39), can you not see that He was saying just as all the wicked were killed in the flood, the wicked will all be killed at the coming of the Son of man as well?

Jesus said in the same verses, one taken, one left. Jesus used the flood to state the condition of the world, prior to his Second Coming of the Son of Man, that people would not believe what was going to happen in their generation...the rapture for them looking for and expecting it... and the great tribulation for them who are not.

Douggg · Nov 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
What is your point?

The point is you dissertation on Israel is not correct, because it is Jerusalem that the fig tree represents, not Israel.

sovereigngrace · Nov 25, 2020

Douggg said:
The point is you dissertation on Israel is not correct, because it is Jerusalem that the fig tree represents, not Israel.

And where do you get that in God's Word?

sovereigngrace · Nov 25, 2020

Douggg said:
The point is you dissertation on Israel is not correct, because it is Jerusalem that the fig tree represents, not Israel.

Judges 9:8-15 records, “The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us. But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honour God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us. But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees? Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us. And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees? Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us. And the bramble said unto the trees, If in truth ye anoint me king over you, then come and put your trust in my shadow: and if not, let fire come out of the bramble, and devour the cedars of Lebanon.”

Trees in Scripture represent nations and peoples. The fig tree is normally representative of the overall nation of Israel – containing both good and bad figs. The olive and vine trees on the other hand consistently represent the people of God in Scripture and retaining only the redeemed.

Hosea 9:10 says, “I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baal-peor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved."

Jeremiah 8:13 declares, “there shall be no grapes on the vine, nor figs on the fig tree, and the leaf shall fade; and the things that I have given them shall pass away from them.”

Jeremiah 24:1-10 says, "The LORD shewed me, and, behold, two baskets of figs were set before the temple of the LORD, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon. One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad. Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil. Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good. For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up. And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart. And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith the LORD, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt: And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them. And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers.”

The prophet said unto natural Israel in Joel 1:1-7 says, “The word of the LORD that came to Joel the son of Pethuel. Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers? Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation. That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten. Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth. For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion. He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white."

These symbols of Israel are shown to describe the desolation that was brought upon the land.

Joel 1:12 The vine is dried up, and the fig tree languisheth; the pomegranate tree, the palm tree also, and the apple tree, even all the trees of the field, are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men.

Jeremiah 29:16–19: “Know that thus saith the LORD of the king that sitteth upon the throne of David, and of all the people that dwelleth in this city, and of your brethren that are not gone forth with you into captivity; Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will send upon them the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, and will make them like vile figs, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil. I will persecute them with the sword, with the famine, and with the pestilence, and will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, to be a curse, and an astonishment, and an hissing, and a reproach, among all the nations whither I have driven them: Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD.”

The fig tree in Scripture symbolizes natural Israel. During the Lord’s earthly ministry, He taught of the demise of natural Israel by way of this symbol and by way of a parable, in Luke 13:6-9, saying, “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.”

Here Christ is speaking of Israel’s fruitlessness (as a fig tree). He presents this as the reason why the fig tree must be cut. Here, He is referring to how they rebelled against His message of salvation and hence brought forth no fruit acceptable unto God. That ministry lasted 3 ½ years on this earth and culminated in the Jews crucifying the Messiah. In the parable Christ refers to the length of His ministry.

I believe where you err is in your belief that the natural nation of Israel is still God's chosen people. This is a mistaken concept spawned by Dispensationalism. Only those who love Christ are under the favour of God and are viewed as His elect. What is more, you have a future expectation for national Israel that has been long demolished when Christ cursed the fig tree, bringing an end to the old covenant theocratic system.

Mark 11:13-14, which records, “seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever.”

After this the Lord headed for the very epicenter of the Jewish religion – the temple – and overturned the tables, demonstrating that He had had enough with their religious hypocrisy and stubborn rebellion.

The true elect Church is the true elect Israel.

Douggg · Nov 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
And where do you get that in God's Word?

From Jesus cursing the fig tree as he was entering Jerusalem. And that the 70 weeks are determined on Daniel's people the Jews, and upon Jerusalem, in Daniel 9:24. And that the vision Gabriel referred to in Daniel 9:23 was the vision of the little horn's stoppage of the daily sacrifice and transgression of desolation which Gabriel stated for time of the end.

sovereigngrace · Nov 25, 2020

Douggg said:
From Jesus cursing the fig tree as he was entering Jerusalem. And that the 70 weeks are determined on Daniel's people the Jews, and upon Jerusalem, in Daniel 9:24. And that the vision Gabriel referred to in Daniel 9:23 was the vision of the little horn's stoppage of the daily sacrifice and transgression of desolation which Gabriel stated for time of the end.

That is not scriptural support. That is gerrymandering Scripture. You obviously have nothing as I suspected. That is classic Premil. Make it up as you go. I refer you to the biblical evidence that you avoided and which rebuts your theory.

Douggg · Nov 25, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
After this the Lord headed for the very epicenter of the Jewish religion – the temple – and overturned the tables, demonstrating that He had had enough with their religious hypocrisy and stubborn rebellion.

What does the text actually say - Jerusalem or epicenter of the Jewish religion? The fig tree is not the epicenter of the Jewish religion. The fig tree is Jerusalem, in the parable of the fig tree generation Something that can be observed.

When Jesus cursed the fig tree, it was too early to have an fruit. It had leaves, but no fruit.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

For the Jews in Judea to flee in v15, the Jews have to be occupying Jerusalem as the focal point of their nation. Which the Jews gained control of Jerusalem in 1967.

Which

sovereigngrace · Nov 25, 2020

Douggg said:
What does the text actually say - Jerusalem or epicenter of the Jewish religion? The fig tree is not the epicenter of the Jewish religion. The fig tree is Jerusalem, in the parable of the fig tree generation Something that can be observed.

When Jesus cursed the fig tree, it was too early to have an fruit. It had leaves, but no fruit.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

For the Jews in Judea to flee in v15, the Jews have to be occupying Jerusalem as the focal point of their nation. Which the Jews gained control of Jerusalem in 1967.

Which

You are trying to manipulate the text to teach what you have been taught. I have showed you the biblical evidence above, which you have carefully avoided. You have to as it forbids your teaching. The readers can read it for themselves. Again, you provide zero evidence, apart from your own opinions (which mean nothing).

The Jews in Judea fled before AD70 and missed God's judgment. Check history and check Scripture. Stop manipulating the text to support your error.

jgr · Nov 26, 2020

Douggg said:
For the Jews in Judea to flee in v15, the Jews have to be occupying Jerusalem as the focal point of their nation.

Matthew 24
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

No specific mention of, or limitation to, "Jews" or "Jerusalem". Jesus was referring to Christian believers, both Jews and Gentiles, who would be living in Jerusalem and Judaea prior to the Roman invasion.

Thankfully, they were not dispensational futurists. They heeded Jesus' warning, and fled, and survived.

And the Christian Church of Judaea was preserved.

Douggg · Nov 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You are trying to manipulate the text to teach what you have been taught.

Taught by who?
What teachers are you talking about? I am going by the text. Jesus and the disciples were about to enter Jerusalem when he cursed the fig tree.

sovereigngrace said:
Again, you provide zero evidence, apart from your own opinions (which mean nothing).

Jerusalem is right in the text. Jesus and the disciples were overnighting in nearby Bethany. And the next day as they were walking back to Jerusalem, Jesus cursed the fig tree.

Mark 11:11 And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.

12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:

13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.

14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;

sovereigngrace said:
The Jews in Judea fled before AD70 and missed God's judgment. Check history and check Scripture. Stop manipulating the text to support your error.

That is separate from Matthew 24 which is end times when Jesus returns in power and glory.

Timtofly · Nov 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Show me where I ever said that scripture teaches pre-trib is escapism? I didn't. I do believe that pre-trib appeals to people who are afraid of tribulation. But, all I did was show that the rapture is post-trib rather than pre-trib and we should not expect to avoid tribulation when scripture teaches that all who want to live godly lives will suffer persecution (2 Tim 3:12). Why would that change at any point in the future?

Spiritual Jew said:
The pre-trib doctrine makes people look forward to the easy way out instead of persevering to the end as scripture repeatedly admonishes us to do.

How is comparing "the easy way out" to perseverance, not hinting at escapism?

If you agree that the pre-trib is not an easy way out, and stop that line of reason altogether, perhaps I would agree with your denial.

You understand that avoiding apostasy is also enduring to the end? Since post trib is not found in those verses of Matthew 25, then have you not, already lost the "enduring to the end" fight?

The Second Coming is the judgment on the ungodly, the start of tribulation not yet seen on earth. "Those days" is too generic to set a post date scenario. The Second Coming has been after many, even hundreds of times, those days.

Even trying to "foist" probably an over used word now, into anything coming to a climactic end in the 6th seal is iffy. How can it end, before it even started? Do you deny that the Lamb can have an earthly ministry and final harvest during the Trumpets? This time of tribulation is God hands on. Not a remote broadcast from behind a veil of uncertainty. The question is asked by those on earth at that time. It is not answered at that time. God gives humans and even Satan a chance to voice their opinions. That is why it all takes time and God is long suffering even while present. I cannot understand why some think the Second Coming happens at the end of The Lamb already here for a few years. The Lamb comes in power and stays in power, until all that God put into motion is completed. The Second Coming is not when the Lamb is finished and leaving.

Timtofly · Nov 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
How can heaven and earth passing away not refer to the end of this present earth? The end of this present earth will happen at the end of the age when Christ returns.

How do you interpret the following passage which speaks of the same event that Christ taught about in Mathew 24:35-39.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

This is a very clear, straightforward passage that premillennialists cannot possibly reconcile with their doctrine. Just like Jesus taught in Matthew 24:35-39, this passage talks about heaven and earth passing away (by way of fire) at His coming. Just like Jesus taught in Matthew 24:35-39, this passages clearly indicates that global destruction on the same scale of the flood in Noah's day will occur when He returns, with the difference being that this time it will be by fire.

It's very clear that this global destruction will occur on the day He returns. Notice that Peter first talks about scoffers in the last day scoffing at the idea of Him coming again because of how long it has been and that nothing has changed. But they will be ignorant of the fact that God once before destroyed all of the wicked on the earth with a global flood. He destroyed all of the wicked on the earth once, so why would anyone think He wouldn't ever do it again, only this time by fire? Those scoffers are ignorant.

Then Peter indicates that the Lord is not being slack concerning the promise of His coming. He is being patient while giving everyone an opportunity to repent first before He comes because He wants all people to repent. Right after that is the description of the burning up of the heavens and the earth. The context never changes. This is all about what will happen at His second coming.

Then, notice what Peter says after describing the destruction of the current heavens and earth by fire. He said that despite what he had just said, we look forward to "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness". We are not looking forward to an earthly millennial kingdom when Christ returns. We, like Peter, are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth when He returns.

They weren't removed from the earth. There will be no need for Christ to gather His church to Himself until the day He returns when the final wrath of God is brought down upon the earth as Peter describes in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

The Day of the Lord is not 24 hours. It is as simple as that. Deny it all you want, but Peter says do not ignore what a Day with the Lord is. Peter tells you not to ignore it in verse 8, and by verse 10, you forgot and ignored the fact any way.

Timtofly · Nov 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The 70 weeks are long completed. To deny that is to deny history and Scripture.

From Jacob, and throughout the Old Testament, God sovereignly worked through this one individual nation. He sovereignly selected natural Israel to fulfil His plan and purposes for mankind. Salvation was largely restricted within the borders of national Israel apart from the salvation of the Gentile city of Nineveh and the conversion to Judaism of Gentiles during the rule of Queen Esther. The only other conversions under the old covenant were the occasional individual Gentile within Israel. The nation was governed by the teaching of Scripture and many within that nation came to a personal salvation in Christ. Even those who did not surrender their hearts to God were required to keep all the outward observances of the law. That did not mean that a Jew was saved by his race, heritage or birth. Each of these privileged nationals still had to come to a place of personal faith.

Salvation is no longer operated through a nationalistic theocracy in this New Testament era, neither is it restricted to one lone nation. The cross changed all that. What altered was that Christ’s exclusive focus upon natural Israel was widened out to include all nations equally. The lost and rejected throughout the Gentile world have been availed an equal opportunity to freely enter into salvation through the atoning work of the cross. The grace of God permeates all nations today. The Lord removed the natural Israeli boundaries that existed to reach the nations. All nations, tribes and peoples today are therefore viewed the same by Christ. Israel’s previous favored position no longer exists today. It has been eternally removed by Christ and the new eternal covenant arrangement. God now works through a spiritual nation that transcends all the national borders of the world and embraces all nations. This is his only structure on this earth; it is the only spiritual edifice that He recognizes and uses for His glory.

Dispensationalism is inherently racially prejudiced in that it discriminates between humans. It holds to a form of spiritual apartheid. Israel cannot come to Christ and join the Church in this age, they must wait until some supposed age after the “rapture” when the Church is gone in order to be eligible to get saved. What is more, Dispensationalism places Jewish sinners in a superior plain to Gentile sinners. Jews outside of Christ are viewed differently than Gentiles outside of Christ. Unsaved Jews are looked upon as God’s chosen people despite the fact they reject Christ. This cannot be. In fact, this is expressly forbidden by Scripture. We cannot differentiate between sinners. All Christ-rejecters are under the wrath of God and are of their father the devil, all saved Jews and Gentiles are washed in the blood of Jesus are therefore under the approval of God. God’s chosen people are not simply Jews (those who by an accident of birth are the uncircumcised), but Jews and Gentile who love Jesus. That is the biblical criteria for walking in the blessing of God. God doesn’t choose anyone that doesn’t choose His Son. God’s chosen people are the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ throughout the ages.

What is the difference between an era and a dispensation?

Dispensation is found 4 times in the KJV. How many times is era found in the Bible?

sovereigngrace · Nov 26, 2020

Douggg said:
Taught by who?
What teachers are you talking about? I am going by the text. Jesus and the disciples were about to enter Jerusalem when he cursed the fig tree.

Jerusalem is right in the text. Jesus and the disciples were overnighting in nearby Bethany. And the next day as they were walking back to Jerusalem, Jesus cursed the fig tree.

Mark 11:11 And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.

12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:

13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.

14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;

That is separate from Matthew 24 which is end times when Jesus returns in power and glory.

Many times Christ taught about Israel in Jerusalem. Many times He rebuked them in Jerusalem. The temple was the center-point of global Judaism and it was taken from them and rendered obsolete.

Why do you refuse to leave the OT? Why do you refuse to ignore the biblical evidence? You have no. You have to make it up as you go or it wouldn't be Premil.

The 70 weeks and great tribulation is long- fulfilled.

It is time to put your faith in God's Word not your faulty charts.

Douggg · Nov 26, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Why do you refuse to leave the OT. Why do you refuse to ignore the biblical evidence? You have no. You have to make it up as you go or it wouldn't be Premil.

Revelation is in the OT ?

To understand eschatology correctly, a person must go by the end times prophecies in the old testament and in the new testament.

Jesus's return to this earth is in Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 19:11-16 and Ezekiel 39:20-29, Jesus Himself speaking in the text.

Ezekiel 39:17-20 corresponds to Revelation 19:17-18. 7 year after the destruction of Gog's army and burial in a mass grave in Israel. Ezekiel 38 says that Gog/Magog happens in the latter years, latter days when the Jews have come out of the nations.

Anyone can see Israel over that to know that we are living in the end times.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 26, 2020

Timtofly said:
How is comparing "the easy way out" to perseverance, not hinting at escapism?

If you agree that the pre-trib is not an easy way out, and stop that line of reason altogether, perhaps I would agree with your denial.

You understand that avoiding apostasy is also enduring to the end? Since post trib is not found in those verses of Matthew 25, then have you not, already lost the "enduring to the end" fight?

The Second Coming is the judgment on the ungodly, the start of tribulation not yet seen on earth. "Those days" is too generic to set a post date scenario. The Second Coming has been after many, even hundreds of times, those days.

Even trying to "foist" probably an over used word now, into anything coming to a climactic end in the 6th seal is iffy. How can it end, before it even started? Do you deny that the Lamb can have an earthly ministry and final harvest during the Trumpets? This time of tribulation is God hands on. Not a remote broadcast from behind a veil of uncertainty. The question is asked by those on earth at that time. It is not answered at that time. God gives humans and even Satan a chance to voice their opinions. That is why it all takes time and God is long suffering even while present. I cannot understand why some think the Second Coming happens at the end of The Lamb already here for a few years. The Lamb comes in power and stays in power, until all that God put into motion is completed. The Second Coming is not when the Lamb is finished and leaving.

Is the following verse true or not?

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Is there some reason why this verse would not be true any longer during a future tribulation period where believers are being attacked because of their faith? Why would God need to take anyone off the earth before the day that His final wrath (2 Peter 3:10-12) comes down?

Douggg · Nov 26, 2020

Spiritual Jew said:
Is there some reason why this verse would not be true any longer during a future tribulation period where believers are being attacked because of their faith? Why would God need to take anyone off the earth before the day that His final wrath (2 Peter 3:10-12) comes down?

There are believers during the great tribulation here on earth. Because they were not part of the rapture that takes place before the peace and safety delusion (1Thessalonians5:3) is shattered by the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

sovereigngrace · Nov 26, 2020

Douggg said:
Revelation is in the OT ?

To understand eschatology correctly, a person must go by the end times prophecies in the old testament and in the new testament.

Jesus's return to this earth is in Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 19:11-16 and Ezekiel 39:20-29, Jesus Himself speaking in the text.

Ezekiel 39:17-20 corresponds to Revelation 19:17-18. 7 year after the destruction of Gog's army and burial in a mass grave in Israel. Ezekiel 38 says that Gog/Magog happens in the latter years, latter days when the Jews have come out of the nations.

Anyone can see Israel over that to know that we are living in the end times.

No. Premil is based upon the old covenant. That is why they are obsessed with the redundant ceremonial system and hanker after its reintroduction in the future, which is ridiculous. This is an offence to Christ and the new covenant arrangement. Also, your obsessive longing for a racially preeminent Israel is long gone and deeply unscriptural. It is anti-NT.

Natural Israel could never fulfill the demands of God because of sin. That is why Jesus came. He is true Israel. He did what man could never do. We are not waiting for some alleged age for Israel to get their act together. We are watching men of all nations now enter into faithful Israel - the only Israel acceptable unto God.

The redeemed Church of God is the historic continuation of believing Israel. They are the children of Abraham by faith. We are the true children of Abraham, not them. We are true Israeli citizens. We are the circumcision. We are the spiritual Jews.

Spiritual Jew · Nov 26, 2020

Douggg said:
Jesus said in the same verses, one taken, one left. Jesus used the flood to state the condition of the world, prior to his Second Coming of the Son of Man, that people would not believe what was going to happen in their generation...the rapture for them looking for and expecting it... and the great tribulation for them who are not.

He mentioned that the flood killed all of the unbelievers for a reason. You act as if He made that point for no reason. Not true. He said just as all unbelievers were killed in the flood, "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.". Same point that Peter makes in 2 Peter 3:4-7.

One taken, one left means one will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and the other will be killed when "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ...When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" (2 Thess 1:7-10). No mortals will survive the second coming of Jesus Christ. Scripture teaches that repeatedly.

Daniel 2:44 The Kingdom That Breaks All Other Kingdoms

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