Is NOSAS compatible with Amil?

DavidPT

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LOL. Now, you're talking about a third death and a bunch more nonsense. Why do you do this? I have no interest in taking part in ridiculous discussions like this.

Story of my life. When I'm not trying to be funny, I'm real funny. When I'm trying to be funny, I'm not funny at all.


The following is not meant for you since you have no interest in anything like this, so don't even bother replying to this since you would rather ridicule someone instead. So this is for anyone who might find food for thought useful at times.

If there was a bottle of poison that had a warning label that said "In the day you drink of this you shall surely die", and that this is slow acting poison, thus doesn't kill you instantly nor even the same day, yet within several days you eventually die once you drank this poison, does this mean, since you didn't die instantly nor the same day, that the label was referring to spiritual death, and not physical death instead?

In this analogy above, it is not required that you have to die instantly nor even that same day, in order to die because of drinking that poison in the day that you drank it. It simply means in the day you drank this, your fate is sealed and can't be reversed. And that's basically how I reason what God said in Genesis 2 when He said---for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die---meaning once you do this, this can't be reversed, and that your fate is sealed, you're going to die. And so what if they didn't physically die that very same day they ate of this, assuming a 24 hour day, but did they eventually physically die, though? Apparently they did since we don't see Adam and Eve still walking around on the earth today. Was the reason why they eventually died have anything to do with eating from a tree God commanded them not to eat from? Apparently yes. It is then ludicrous to claim physical death was not meant in Genesis 2:17, and that it was meaning spiritual death instead, since they didn't physically die with 24 hours. But they did die within a thousand years, though, keeping 2 Peter 3:8 in mind.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Story of my life. When I'm not trying to be funny, I'm real funny. When I'm trying to be funny, I'm not funny at all.


The following is not meant for you since you have no interest in anything like this, so don't even bother replying to this since you would rather ridicule someone instead. So this is for anyone who might find food for thought useful at times.

If there was a bottle of poison that had a warning label that said "In the day you drink of this you shall surely die", and that this is slow acting poison, thus doesn't kill you instantly nor even the same day, yet within several days you eventually die once you drank this poison, does this mean, since you didn't die instantly nor the same day, that the label was referring to spiritual death, and not physical death instead?

In this analogy above, it is not required that you have to die instantly nor even that same day, in order to die because of drinking that poison in the day that you drank it. It simply means in the day you drank this, your fate is sealed and can't be reversed. And that's basically how I reason what God said in Genesis 2 when He said---for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die---meaning once you do this, this can't be reversed, and that your fate is sealed, you're going to die. And so what if they didn't physically die that very same day they ate of this, assuming a 24 hour day, but did they eventually physically die, though? Apparently they did since we don't see Adam and Eve still walking around on the earth today. Was the reason why they eventually died have anything to do with eating from a tree God commanded them not to eat from? Apparently yes. It is then ludricrous to claim physical death was not meant in Genesis 2:17.

Can I give you a bit of advice? Stop digging the hole you are digging for yourself. Your attempt at dividing the Amil camp is clearly backfiring on you. It is just bringing Amils closer together and making your attempts at division look foolish.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Because NOSAS is what God's Word teaches has no bearing on why His Word also teaches a Premill return of Christ Jesus with the millennium beginning at His return. The Amill position is actually impossible for one who sticks to the written Word of God.

Really? Do you believe in corroboration?
 
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Zao is life

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Story of my life. When I'm not trying to be funny, I'm real funny. When I'm trying to be funny, I'm not funny at all.


The following is not meant for you since you have no interest in anything like this, so don't even bother replying to this since you would rather ridicule someone instead. So this is for anyone who might find food for thought useful at times.

If there was a bottle of poison that had a warning label that said "In the day you drink of this you shall surely die", and that this is slow acting poison, thus doesn't kill you instantly nor even the same day, yet within several days you eventually die once you drank this poison, does this mean, since you didn't die instantly nor the same day, that the label was referring to spiritual death, and not physical death instead?

In this analogy above, it is not required that you have to die instantly nor even that same day, in order to die because of drinking that poison in the day that you drank it. It simply means in the day you drank this, your fate is sealed and can't be reversed. And that's basically how I reason what God said in Genesis 2 when He said---for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die---meaning once you do this, this can't be reversed, and that your fate is sealed, you're going to die. And so what if they didn't physically die that very same day they ate of this, assuming a 24 hour day, but did they eventually physically die, though? Apparently they did since we don't see Adam and Eve still walking around on the earth today. Was the reason why they eventually died have anything to do with eating from a tree God commanded them not to eat from? Apparently yes. It is then ludicrous to claim physical death was not meant in Genesis 2:17, and that it was meaning spiritual death instead, since they didn't physically die with 24 hours. But they did die within a thousand years, though, keeping 2 Peter 3:8 in mind.
Good analogy. Death entered into Adam the moment he drank that poison. The Spirit of Life was no longer dwelling in Him:

Genesis 2:1
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Adam became a living soul when the Spirit of Life breathed Life into His soul. As a result, he would live forever.

John 3:7
"That which is born (γεννάω [gennáō]) of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born (γεννάω gennáō) of the Spirit ( πνεῦμα [pneûma] ) is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born (Greek: γεννάω [gennáō]) from above (Greek: ἄνωθεν [ánōthen])."

The concept of the resurrection of the soul or spirit is alien to the New Testament. It's spiritual birth that takes place in those who are born from above by the Spirit of Christ (who is the Spirit of Life):

OF BIBLICAL PROPORTIONS: Resurrection Verses
 
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Zao is life

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Because NOSAS is what God's Word teaches has no bearing on why His Word also teaches a Premill return of Christ Jesus with the millennium beginning at His return. The Amill position is actually impossible for one who sticks to the written Word of God.
DavidPT was not linking NOSAS to Premil. He is simply saying that Amil and NOSAS are irreconcilable because Amils say that the souls seen beheaded in Revelation 20 are talking about those who are "spiritually" resurrected in Christ when they are born again - but the 2nd death as no power over them, therefore Amil is incompatible with NOSAS. It was well-spotted, IMO, and David's OP and this thread had nothing to do with attempting to prove Premil, although that debate obviously crept into this thread to join the party.
 
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DavidPT

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DavidPT was not linking NOSAS to Premil. He is simply saying that Amil and NOSAS are irreconcilable because Amils say that the souls seen beheaded in Revelation 20 are talking about those who are "spiritually" resurrected in Christ when they are born again - but the 2nd death as no power over them, therefore Amil is incompatible with NOSAS. It was well-spotted, IMO, and David's OP and this thread had nothing to do with attempting to prove Premil, although that debate obviously crept into this thread to join the party.


In the past and on other boards, there were actually Amils in the OSAS camp that wholeheartedly agreed with me that NOSAS is not compatible with Amil, and weren't afraid to say so. And like I have already pointed out, this would not even be a an issue if NOSAS is not Biblical. If NOSAS is not Biblical, that means my arguments are moot. But if NOSAS is Biblical, and clearly it is, my arguments are not moot in that case. It is ludicrous that anyone who has part in the first resurrection can somehow have part in the LOF instead. It is ludicrous that anyone who has part in the first resurrection does not finish the thousand year reign they started with Christ.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Because NOSAS is what God's Word teaches has no bearing on why His Word also teaches a Premill return of Christ Jesus with the millennium beginning at His return. The Amill position is actually impossible for one who sticks to the written Word of God.
You really made a convincing argument there. I guess I have no choice but to be Premill now. How can anyone argue with your logic?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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In the past and on other boards, there were actually Amils in the OSAS camp that wholeheartedly agreed with me that NOSAS is not compatible with Amil, and weren't afraid to say so. And like I have already pointed out, this would not even be a an issue if NOSAS is not Biblical. If NOSAS is not Biblical, that means my arguments are moot. But if NOSAS is Biblical, and clearly it is, my arguments are not moot in that case. It is ludicrous that anyone who has part in the first resurrection can somehow have part in the LOF instead.
If one understands that having part in the first resurrection is spiritual then it's not any more ludicrous than thinking that someone can be saved and later lose their salvation. But, since you always have your premil glasses on, you're not able to understand that.

It is ludicrous that anyone who has part in the first resurrection does not finish the thousand year reign they started with Christ.
It's only ludicrous in the premil view. You have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that you are unable to understand the amil view and that is the only reason why you come to your ludicrous conclusions about it.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Story of my life. When I'm not trying to be funny, I'm real funny. When I'm trying to be funny, I'm not funny at all.


The following is not meant for you since you have no interest in anything like this, so don't even bother replying to this since you would rather ridicule someone instead. So this is for anyone who might find food for thought useful at times.

If there was a bottle of poison that had a warning label that said "In the day you drink of this you shall surely die", and that this is slow acting poison, thus doesn't kill you instantly nor even the same day, yet within several days you eventually die once you drank this poison, does this mean, since you didn't die instantly nor the same day, that the label was referring to spiritual death, and not physical death instead?

In this analogy above, it is not required that you have to die instantly nor even that same day, in order to die because of drinking that poison in the day that you drank it. It simply means in the day you drank this, your fate is sealed and can't be reversed. And that's basically how I reason what God said in Genesis 2 when He said---for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die---meaning once you do this, this can't be reversed, and that your fate is sealed, you're going to die. And so what if they didn't physically die that very same day they ate of this, assuming a 24 hour day, but did they eventually physically die, though? Apparently they did since we don't see Adam and Eve still walking around on the earth today. Was the reason why they eventually died have anything to do with eating from a tree God commanded them not to eat from? Apparently yes. It is then ludicrous to claim physical death was not meant in Genesis 2:17, and that it was meaning spiritual death instead, since they didn't physically die with 24 hours. But they did die within a thousand years, though, keeping 2 Peter 3:8 in mind.
I wasn't intending to ridicule you, I was expressing my amazement at you misrepresenting the Amil view for the 1000th time. I've never claimed that there were 3 deaths, so that's why I found it funny that you would think I would believe that.

There are 2 literal deaths. Our physical, bodily death and then the second death on the day of judgment when unbelievers are separated from God forever and sentenced to eternal torment in the lake of fire. The other sense in which people are dead is in a figurative sense, as Paul talks about here:

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Do you agree that people are spiritually dead in their transgressions and sins before they are saved? It doesn't mean someone's spirit is literally dead and that's why I said there's only 2 literal deaths with the second death being the one that occurs on judgment day.

Nonetheless, there is another sense of someone being dead besides our physical death and the second death on judgment day. Again, it's not a literal death of the spirit or anything like that, but it's a figurative death in a spiritual sense in that people are dead in their sins when they are unsaved. That means their sins are separating them from having a relationship with God, so they are "dead" in that sense. Adam became dead in that sense as soon as he sinned. Do you disagree?
 
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Davy

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Yes, really. You need to shorten your posts. No need for them to be this long.


Revelation 20: Does your interpretation agree with all other scripture?

(Chronological or Recapitulation?) (Literal vs. Figurative?)

Based on the following scripture, will immortals and mortals both live on earth for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will there be renewed animal sacrifices in earthly Jerusalem for 1,000 years after the Second Coming of Christ? Will Christ conduct funeral services for mortals killed in accidents many years after His Second Coming? Graveyards needed?

I can give you a line upon line break down of Rev.20, and other relevant Scripture that reveals that 1,000 year period is for after Christ's return, which is not difficult at all. The Zechariah 14 witness of Christ's reigning from Jerusalem (on earth) over the nations and the Rev.20 witness of Christ reigning over the nations with His elect is really all one needs. 1 Cor.15:23-28 also gives a witness of that future reign by Christ Jesus on earth, as does Psalms 2; Psalms 110; Psalms 132; Revelation 14; Acts 1; Revelation 3:9.

There are many more Scripture examples of Christ's future reign over the nations at His coming return; they are scattered all throughout God's Word. Many of them are hard-linked to the "day of the Lord" event that will occur on the day of His return in our near future.

There's also this one which many miss...

The Two Comings of Lord Jesus Christ Prophesied through Zechariah--
First Coming Meek as a Lamb:

Zech 9:9
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.


Second Coming To Reign:
Zech 9:10
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.

KJV

The idea of a "dominion" means a kingdom. That's about Christ's future reign when He returns in our near future.
 
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Davy

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DavidPT was not linking NOSAS to Premil. He is simply saying that Amil and NOSAS are irreconcilable because Amils say that the souls seen beheaded in Revelation 20 are talking about those who are "spiritually" resurrected in Christ when they are born again - but the 2nd death as no power over them, therefore Amil is incompatible with NOSAS. It was well-spotted, IMO, and David's OP and this thread had nothing to do with attempting to prove Premil, although that debate obviously crept into this thread to join the party.

My intent was there's no sense in trying to figure out how Amills can be NOSAS based on Rev.20, etc., because the Amill position in Scripture does not exist.
 
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Zao is life

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Yes, really. You need to shorten your posts. No need for them to be this long.
It was a copy 'n paste job from his treasure house of stored posts which have already been posted in other threads. I've had exactly the same long post, with exactly the same wording from him more than once in different threads. Sometimes he only copies and pastes part of one long post contained in his treasure house of stored posts. Can you believe I actually took a couple of hours to answer each point when he posted the same post to me before, and he then flatly ignored my answers, and went onto something else. Later he accused me of not answering his questions. He has a set group of replies all nicely stored in his treasure-house of stored posts, and then often without reading your reply, he will simply copy 'n paste another long list of statements and long list of questions, which he expects you to answer (and if you don't you will be accused of avoiding the issue). I've even wondered at times if he's a bot.

Compare for example

Is NOSAS compatible with Amil?

(the post you got in this thread)

with

Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

In the second post he even forgot to take out the words "Millennium Questions" which came from another thread.

It shows that he is not in the least interested in what you have to say - he's only interested in what he has to say to you, and getting you to answer his long lists of questions, duly copied n pasted.
 
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BABerean2

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The Zechariah 14 witness of Christ's reigning from Jerusalem (on earth) over the nations and the Rev.20 witness of Christ reigning over the nations with His elect is really all one needs.


I noticed you avoided the questions in my post which reveal the Premil doctrine for what it really is.

If you ignore all of the passages which kill the Premil doctrine you can make it work, because that is what I used to do to make it work.

The change in lighting and the living waters in Zechariah 14 are found in Revelation 21, and Revelation 22, instead of in Revelation 20.


.
 
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sovereigngrace

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My intent was there's no sense in trying to figure out how Amills can be NOSAS based on Rev.20, etc., because the Amill position in Scripture does not exist.

Do you believe in interpreting Scripture with Scripture?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Yes, really. You need to shorten your posts. No need for them to be this long.




I can give you a line upon line break down of Rev.20, and other relevant Scripture that reveals that 1,000 year period is for after Christ's return, which is not difficult at all. The Zechariah 14 witness of Christ's reigning from Jerusalem (on earth) over the nations and the Rev.20 witness of Christ reigning over the nations with His elect is really all one needs. 1 Cor.15:23-28 also gives a witness of that future reign by Christ Jesus on earth, as does Psalms 2; Psalms 110; Psalms 132; Revelation 14; Acts 1; Revelation 3:9.

There are many more Scripture examples of Christ's future reign over the nations at His coming return; they are scattered all throughout God's Word. Many of them are hard-linked to the "day of the Lord" event that will occur on the day of His return in our near future.

There's also this one which many miss...

The Two Comings of Lord Jesus Christ --
First Coming Meek as a Lamb:

Zech 9:9
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.


Second Coming To Reign:
Zech 9:10
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.

KJV

The idea of a "dominion" means a kingdom. That's about Christ's future reign when He returns in our near future.

Christ’s teaching on the kingdom of God was totally alien to the hyper-literal thinking of the Jews of His day, who anticipated a literal carnal earthly racist kingdom, with the Messiah reigning over the Gentiles from Jerusalem in a tyrannical manner. But Jesus taught something completely different. His kingdom was spiritual. It was entered by faith. It was heavenly-centered. It was international in expanse, and knew no boundaries. This cut across the Zionism of the religious apostates that opposed Christ. It exposed the racial prejudice of the unbelieving Jews. It countered their carnal earthy expectation. It blew apart their parochial mindset. The Christ-rejecting Israelites had absolutely no comprehension of the spiritual fulfillment or the heavenly focus of the kingdom promises. That is because they were spiritually blind.

They had no grasp of the spiritual reality of kingdom living. That is why the parables were foreign to them.

The fact is, Christ would ascend to rule at the right hand of glory in heaven and rule over his enemies as the messianic King. When Jesus returns we will see the eternal reward of his people and the eternal retribution to all who rejected Him.

As we get into the New Testament and observe the teaching of Christ and the New Testament writers we see much teaching on the nature, timing and purpose of the kingdom.

Christ taught some of His most profound teaching on the kingdom in His parables. These were everyday earthly stories revealing deep spiritual truths. They were simple recognizable figurative illustrations designed to explain important moral or spiritual lessons.

What we see frequently in Scripture is that what was vague, distant and couched in old covenant terms and locations in the Old Testament, was interpreted in the New Testament in a spiritual manner. The Pharisees couldn’t catch this.

Every time the kingdom is mentioned by Christ, it is in a spiritual sense. The apostles initially struggled with this, with the hyper literal old covenant mindset. But as they become increasingly enlightened, their revelation became clear.

There was a seismic change happening from the old to the new, from the natural to the supernatural, from the shadow and type to the substance and reality, from the imperfect to the perfect, from the inadequate to the all-sufficient, from the physical to the spiritual, from the external to the internal, from the temporary to the eternal, from the earthly to the heavenly, from the national to the international and from the conditional to the unconditional.

This whole change was understandably revolutionary for all Israeli citizens, including the disciples. The whole playing field was changed. Natural Israel’s favored position was gone forever. Physical circumcision as a sign old covenant was gone forever. The physical temple in Jerusalem was gone forever. The Judaic ceremonial system was gone forever.

Now the disciples were being asked to move on to a better, albeit, completely diverse system built upon superior promises. This covenant would be both eternal and heavenly.

The fact is:

· The old covenant was based upon man’s obedience.
· The new covenant was based upon Christ’s obedience.

This is why it would be a complete success and have no end.

The kingdom parables have absolutely nothing to do with some future millennial kingdom or Christ physically reigning in natural Jerusalem over the Gentile nations with a rod of iron. It has absolutely nothing to do with the re-introduction of the old covenant ceremonial system. Christ did away with that forever with His sinless life, His atoning death and His victorious resurrection.

The old is gone, the new has arrived. Heavenly Jerusalem has become the focus. Christ reigns in glory at the right hand of majesty over His enemies. Men are born from above. Their citizenship is in heaven. God’s people are heavenly people. Why? What changed?

Before the earthly ministry of Christ, His vicarious death and His physical resurrection, man’s focus was generally earthly, temporal and physical. Upon death, the believer’s hope was merely Abrahams bottom in Hades. This was so since the fall because man sin had not been fully and finally paid for. Sin, death and Hades had not been defeated. Jesus removed every hindrance that came in between God and man. This opened up a spiritual union and communion between both.

When Jesus comes again He will remove everything that is an offense to Him. He will finally have put down all rule and authority (1 Corinthians 15:24). He will introduce everlasting and perfect righteousness (2 Peter 3:13). It is at this time that the righteous shall shine forth as a sun in “the kingdom of their Father” (Matthew 13:43). The wicked will be destroyed from Christ very presence (2 Thessalonians 1:9 & Luke 17:26–30) but the righteous will be glorified at His arrival (2 Thessalonians 1:10). This is the end. It is the end of time. It is the end of this evil age. It is the end of the mystery of God (Revelation 10:6-7). It is the end of salvation for mankind. Man cannot survive Christ’s glorious and climatic return (Revelation 19:17-21). It is indeed all-consummating!

Christians today share in the Messianic triumph of Christ. Believers are citizens of a heavenly kingdom (Philippians 3:20–21). They are seated in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:4-6, 11-14, 3:1). They rule and reign with Him in life and in death.

The incorruption that will be inherited at the parousia is the newly generated earth. There’s no place for mortals. There’s no place for the unsaved (1 Corinthians 15:50-58).
 
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You really made a convincing argument there. I guess I have no choice but to be Premill now. How can anyone argue with your logic?

Good, because if you are serious then you are agreeing with God's Word about Christ's return after the tribulation that will start His 1,000 years reign. Refusing that of course would mean you're not arguing with me, but with God's written Word, because that's all I proposed on the subject, only what is already written.
 
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Davy

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It was a copy 'n paste job from his treasure house of stored posts which have already been posted in other threads. I've had exactly the same long post, with exactly the same wording from him more than once in different threads. Sometimes he only copies and pastes part of one long post contained in his treasure house of stored posts. Can you believe I actually took a couple of hours to answer each point when he posted the same post to me before, and he then flatly ignored my answers, and went onto something else. Later he accused me of not answering his questions. He has a set group of replies all nicely stored in his treasure-house of stored posts, and then often without reading your reply, he will simply copy 'n paste another long list of statements and long list of questions, which he expects you to answer (and if you don't you will be accused of avoiding the issue). I've even wondered at times if he's a bot.

Compare for example

Is NOSAS compatible with Amil?

(the post you got in this thread)

with

Is the thousand years of Revelation chapter 20 symbolic?

In the second post he even forgot to take out the words "Millennium Questions" which came from another thread.

It shows that he is not in the least interested in what you have to say - he's only interested in what he has to say to you, and getting you to answer his long lists of questions, duly copied n pasted.

Yeah, I figured it was something like that. No worries, because he can't change what those Scriptures I referenced declare about the timing of Christ's future reign at His return.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Good, because if you are serious then you are agreeing with God's Word about Christ's return after the tribulation that will start His 1,000 years reign. Refusing that of course would mean you're not arguing with me, but with God's written Word, because that's all I proposed on the subject, only what is already written.
Oh, so your OPINION equates to God's written Word? Can you show me the verses which teach that?

Look, we expect people to back up their opinions with scripture here. Show me why you think premil is true. Don't just list some passages without commenting on them and think that's enough. Show clearly why you interpret those passages the way you do and then we can discuss it.

For example, I noticed you mentioned Zechariah 14. That can't possibly be referring to a future earthly millennial kingdom and I can show you why. Are you interested in discussing that?
 
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Davy

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I noticed you avoided the questions in my post which reveal the Premil doctrine for what it really is.

If you ignore all of the passages which kill the Premil doctrine you can make it work, because that is what I used to do to make it work.

The change in lighting and the living waters in Zechariah 14 are found in Revelation 21, and Revelation 22, instead of in Revelation 20.


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FUNNY!

Your long cut n' pasted post didn't work! Fullness of the Gentiles said you're next move would be, "why didn't you answer my question"! Your own joke's on you I guess.
 
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Davy

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Oh, so your OPINION equates to God's written Word? Can you show me the verses which teach that?

No, what God's Word says as written IS... what gives me my 'opinion'. It's a pretty darn good one too, and an easy one, because what God's Word says is Truth. So one who stays with what God's Word says as written will be speaking Truth. It's as simple and easy as that.
 
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