"Not once saved always saved" does not make any sense.

SimpleLiving2019 said:

I use an analogy.

You are in a desert canyon, trapped with no water. A helicopter finds you and lands next to you. You get onboard. You rightly exclaimed you are saved. You are not at your final destination yet. If you jump out of the helicopter back into the canyon you have a problem. So stay onboard, you are saved, and are being saved. Finish out the ride, endure until the end.

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Freed Man said:

"Verily, verily I say unto you, he that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep." John 10:1-2

",Verily verily I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door, by me if any man enter in he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture. The thief cometh not but for to steal and to kill and to destroy. I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:7-10

So, here Jesus is saying that anybody who tries to get into heaven any other way except through Him, is a thief and a robber. People who don't believe that once saved always saved are people who believe we are saved by works not Grace. To believe you're saved by works is to try to get into heaven some other way. It doesn't make sense. How can you go through the door and climb over the wall, or bash through a window all at the same time? There is no such thing as being saved by grace and works. You can't work hard enough to pay for your salvation. Jesus paid for it with His own blood by suffering and giving His life for yours. It's a slap in the face to tell Him that wasn't good enough for you, and you need to help Him save you by having good works.

"And if by grace then is it no more of works, otherwise grace is no more Grace. But if it be of works then is it no more grace, otherwise work is no more work." Romans 11:6

So Paul is simply affirming what Jesus said, Salvation is either 100% by grace or 100% by works. You can simply go through the door, Jesus into heaven, ("by grace ye are saved, according to His mercy He saved us") Once saved, always saved. Or you can believe that you have to have good works to be saved, which means you are trying to climb up some other way into heaven, (climbing over the wall, bashing in a window, etc.) which makes you a thief and a robber and a murderer and cutthroat. (not once saved always saved) Once you go through the door, Jesus, into heaven, you can't or won't get kicked out again just because you weren't good enough to deserve it. Nobody can be good enough to deserve it. That's why Jesus came and suffered an died and took our punishment for us, because of His and the Father's great love and mercy and forgiveness towards us.

"I am the good Shepherd. the good Shepherd giveth His life for the sheep.
I am the good Shepherd, and know my sheep and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one Shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me because I lay down my life that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. John 10:11 and 14-18

Jesus laid down His life for your Salvation, so stop trying to earn your Salvation through good works. Your works are never going to be good enough. All your good works will be husks upon the ground that the Lord will have no respect for.

"My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (Once saved, always saved) My Father which gave them me is greater than all and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

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Freed Man said:

"Verily, verily I say unto you, he that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep." John 10:1-2

",Verily verily I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door, by me if any man enter in he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture. The thief cometh not but for to steal and to kill and to destroy. I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:7-10

So, here Jesus is saying that anybody who tries to get into heaven any other way except through Him, is a thief and a robber. People who don't believe that once saved always saved are people who believe we are saved by works not Grace. To believe you're saved by works is to try to get into heaven some other way. It doesn't make sense. How can you go through the door and climb over the wall, or bash through a window all at the same time? There is no such thing as being saved by grace and works. You can't work hard enough to pay for your salvation. Jesus paid for it with His own blood by suffering and giving His life for yours. It's a slap in the face to tell Him that wasn't good enough for you, and you need to help Him save you by having good works.

"And if by grace then is it no more of works, otherwise grace is no more Grace. But if it be of works then is it no more grace, otherwise work is no more work." Romans 11:6

So Paul is simply affirming what Jesus said, Salvation is either 100% by grace or 100% by works. You can simply go through the door, Jesus into heaven, ("by grace ye are saved, according to His mercy He saved us") Once saved, always saved. Or you can believe that you have to have good works to be saved, which means you are trying to climb up some other way into heaven, (climbing over the wall, bashing in a window, etc.) which makes you a thief and a robber and a murderer and cutthroat. (not once saved always saved) Once you go through the door, Jesus, into heaven, you can't or won't get kicked out again just because you weren't good enough to deserve it. Nobody can be good enough to deserve it. That's why Jesus came and suffered an died and took our punishment for us, because of His and the Father's great love and mercy and forgiveness towards us.

"I am the good Shepherd. the good Shepherd giveth His life for the sheep.
I am the good Shepherd, and know my sheep and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one Shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me because I lay down my life that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. John 10:11 and 14-18

Jesus laid down His life for your Salvation, so stop trying to earn your Salvation through good works. Your works are never going to be good enough. All your good works will be husks upon the ground that the Lord will have no respect for.

"My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (Once saved, always saved) My Father which gave them me is greater than all and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

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Kris Jordan said:

He Freedman,

There is great debate among Christians whether a believer is secure in their salvation or whether salvation can be lost or forfeited after obtaining it. Although there are opposing viewpoints on the subject, with compelling arguments and strong Scriptural support for both positions, most believers agree on how salvation is imparted by God and received by sinners. They also agree on the role of sin in believers’ lives. Therefore, the crux of the dispute is about whether an apostate or defector ever possessed saving faith. In other words, could someone who claimed to be born-again and exhibited good works over a long period have possessed genuine saving faith if they renounced it later?

Believers on both sides of the debate acknowledge salvation is a gift from God that is offered freely to all. They believe God imputes it solely based upon faith in Jesus for what He provided on the cross for sinful humanity. They also accept that, outside of faith itself, there is no other vehicle through which God imparts His saving grace to sinners. Both sides further acknowledge God’s gift of salvation is received by individuals when they place their faith and trust in Jesus for what He accomplished for them on the cross. They agree that sinners cannot earn salvation by doing good works or participating in religious ceremonies or ordinances. They accept Jesus’ work on the cross as sufficient to provide everything necessary for salvation and redemption, and they assert the only thing required for it to be credited to a sinner is faith.

Both sides also seem to agree on the issue of sin itself within the lives of professing believers. They agree that when a believer sins or struggles in a particular area of sin, they do not lose their salvation. Instead, they have broken their fellowship with God and need to confess their sins to have their fellowship restored. On the contrary, if a professing believer habitually and continually practices sin, treating God’s grace as a license for it, both sides agree this person does not, most likely, possess salvation.

The disagreement over whether apostates originally possessed salvation or not stems from their inability to see the Holy Spirit's presence inside a person’s heart. Without access to this indisputable evidence of salvation, believers can only examine external evidence, which can be deceiving.

Supporters of the “eternally secure” position argue that a person who renounced their faith never possessed salvation, ever. They assert these people simply offered lip service and modified their external behavior accordingly. Those who hold this view also claim genuine salvation cannot be altered or undone once received. They contend that the verses that appear to support the idea of salvation being lost or abandoned only refer to those who never possessed it. Supporters of the “not eternally secure” position argue that a person who renounced their faith may have possessed salvation initially, as evidenced by their good works and acts of obedience to God. However, at a later point, they willfully chose to reject Jesus and forfeited their salvation by their apostasy. Supporters of this position also argue that verses supporting “eternal security” refer only to believers who continually trust Jesus for their salvation and never stop.

Regardless of which position someone leans toward regarding the security of believers, the fact remains that personal faith in Jesus is the only requirement for sinners to receive salvation and redemption. Likewise, faith is the only vehicle by which Jesus can impart His salvation to sinners.

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SimpleLiving2019 said:

I think the scriptures would bear out that both views are true. There are certainly people who identify as Christians who were never really saved, there are also those who fall away from a true and sincere faith, though it is an incremental process when one does not abide in Jesus, as they wither. I think what we see with our own eyes would confirm this as well.

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Jamdoc said:

I think that most proponents of not once saved always saved are not saying that there's another way into the fold, but rather that once you're in the sheepfold, the sheep can wander back out.
They don't think they can get back in through any means but through Jesus so to say, but rather that if they wander and get lost, they need to find the good shepherd again.

OSAS can itself, take multiple different forms as a doctrine.
One way people see it is that if you are saved once, even if you spend the rest of your life just sinning and living in the world, you're still saved.
Another way is somewhat of a more calvinist approach where once you are saved, if you go astray in sin, Jesus will always make sure you come back to Him.
To make an analogy out of it, one view of OSAS just has every sheep get ear tagged, and even if they wander away and never come back, they have the tag, so the shepherd knows its his sheep even if it dies far away from the fold.
The other view, the sheep has a bungee cord tether, so that even if it wanders away, it gets pulled back before it goes too far.
Then finally the last view is that the sheepfold has an impassable fence that can't be wandered out of, and if a sheep sees another sheep wander out of the fence, they just pretend that sheep was never within the fold.
I lean towards the bungee cord analogy, because people do backslide and come back.

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Freed Man said:

"Verily, verily I say unto you, he that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep." John 10:1-2

",Verily verily I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door, by me if any man enter in he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture. The thief cometh not but for to steal and to kill and to destroy. I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:7-10

So, here Jesus is saying that anybody who tries to get into heaven any other way except through Him, is a thief and a robber. People who don't believe that once saved always saved are people who believe we are saved by works not Grace. To believe you're saved by works is to try to get into heaven some other way. It doesn't make sense. How can you go through the door and climb over the wall, or bash through a window all at the same time? There is no such thing as being saved by grace and works. You can't work hard enough to pay for your salvation. Jesus paid for it with His own blood by suffering and giving His life for yours. It's a slap in the face to tell Him that wasn't good enough for you, and you need to help Him save you by having good works.

"And if by grace then is it no more of works, otherwise grace is no more Grace. But if it be of works then is it no more grace, otherwise work is no more work." Romans 11:6

So Paul is simply affirming what Jesus said, Salvation is either 100% by grace or 100% by works. You can simply go through the door, Jesus into heaven, ("by grace ye are saved, according to His mercy He saved us") Once saved, always saved. Or you can believe that you have to have good works to be saved, which means you are trying to climb up some other way into heaven, (climbing over the wall, bashing in a window, etc.) which makes you a thief and a robber and a murderer and cutthroat. (not once saved always saved) Once you go through the door, Jesus, into heaven, you can't or won't get kicked out again just because you weren't good enough to deserve it. Nobody can be good enough to deserve it. That's why Jesus came and suffered an died and took our punishment for us, because of His and the Father's great love and mercy and forgiveness towards us.

"I am the good Shepherd. the good Shepherd giveth His life for the sheep.
I am the good Shepherd, and know my sheep and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one Shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me because I lay down my life that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. John 10:11 and 14-18

Jesus laid down His life for your Salvation, so stop trying to earn your Salvation through good works. Your works are never going to be good enough. All your good works will be husks upon the ground that the Lord will have no respect for.

"My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (Once saved, always saved) My Father which gave them me is greater than all and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

Click to expand...

Freed Man said:

"Verily, verily I say unto you, he that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep." John 10:1-2

",Verily verily I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door, by me if any man enter in he shall be saved and shall go in and out and find pasture. The thief cometh not but for to steal and to kill and to destroy. I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:7-10

So, here Jesus is saying that anybody who tries to get into heaven any other way except through Him, is a thief and a robber. People who don't believe that once saved always saved are people who believe we are saved by works not Grace. To believe you're saved by works is to try to get into heaven some other way. It doesn't make sense. How can you go through the door and climb over the wall, or bash through a window all at the same time? There is no such thing as being saved by grace and works. You can't work hard enough to pay for your salvation. Jesus paid for it with His own blood by suffering and giving His life for yours. It's a slap in the face to tell Him that wasn't good enough for you, and you need to help Him save you by having good works.

"And if by grace then is it no more of works, otherwise grace is no more Grace. But if it be of works then is it no more grace, otherwise work is no more work." Romans 11:6

So Paul is simply affirming what Jesus said, Salvation is either 100% by grace or 100% by works. You can simply go through the door, Jesus into heaven, ("by grace ye are saved, according to His mercy He saved us") Once saved, always saved. Or you can believe that you have to have good works to be saved, which means you are trying to climb up some other way into heaven, (climbing over the wall, bashing in a window, etc.) which makes you a thief and a robber and a murderer and cutthroat. (not once saved always saved) Once you go through the door, Jesus, into heaven, you can't or won't get kicked out again just because you weren't good enough to deserve it. Nobody can be good enough to deserve it. That's why Jesus came and suffered an died and took our punishment for us, because of His and the Father's great love and mercy and forgiveness towards us.

"I am the good Shepherd. the good Shepherd giveth His life for the sheep.
I am the good Shepherd, and know my sheep and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold, them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one Shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me because I lay down my life that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. John 10:11 and 14-18

Jesus laid down His life for your Salvation, so stop trying to earn your Salvation through good works. Your works are never going to be good enough. All your good works will be husks upon the ground that the Lord will have no respect for.

"My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (Once saved, always saved) My Father which gave them me is greater than all and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

Click to expand...