As believers we have duty to contend for the faith

mikeforjesus · Sep 5, 2020

I hope people expose it more as error or I guess God expects people to believe from the totality of scripture but to seek Him more to know to defend against falsehood. All Christians must have close relationship with Christ if they are to influence others and to know the truth. I hope people do not believe the lie because they should not believe that God will give the kingdom to people who don’t repent as God does not want to give the kingdom to those who did not choose Him and to follow Him as He said whoever does not take His cross is unworthy of Him. And the cross is not a needless burden that one carries for no purpose but to show that one loves Christ and respects His right to give the kingdom only to those who proved they love Him by doing His will because He only wants those in heaven who choose Him and love others too to bring them to the kingdom by teaching people they must be perfect in character to enter the kingdom for He wants to test our character if it is good how much we love Him and others to enter the kingdom and tests us in all points

People can be saved late if God allows them to live longer but they need to develop as much relationship with Him as they can but it may not be guaranteed to make it to old age if you don’t come earlier but for some it may be harder to find Christ late if they don’t seek Him harder or they may have to be more devoted to find out how to live a spiritual life and bear fruit if you come late as you can’t take your time to find out how to live in Christ

Bible Highlighter · Sep 5, 2020

@mikeforjesus

I was reading through the thread. I think you may like this video.

mikeforjesus · Sep 5, 2020

Thankyou friend the video was very informative and important. I hope I use it to encourage me to seek the Lord and to guide me

Bible Highlighter · Sep 5, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
Thankyou friend the video was very informative and important. I hope I use it to encourage me to seek the Lord and to guide me

I am glad you find it informative, and important. I will pray the video (with Scripture) will help you in your seeking the Lord indeed.

mikeforjesus · Sep 10, 2020

It seems unfortunate that no one has or is able to explain those passages about sodom not even the church fathers that I looked for a long time before I posted I searched the only commentary I found on it is below. But it doesn’t seem really good at explaining why it is not Sodom though it could be. But I think I know a possible explanation which is that jerusalems sisters sodom and her daughters could refer to Jews who commited sins like sodom but other Jews did not commit the same sins but still very bad sins but worser because they did more or did worser sins or refers to those of the nations who lived like sodom who would repent but they would still be punished but saved later or as I said they could even be people from the land of sodom who migrated who were practicing sin who were near Jerusalem so they were sisters and they would repent from hearing the preaching of those who preach to Jerusalem to make them repent. Jerusalem was worse than them though it would be restored but not because of them keeping their covenant but through a new covenant that would be promised to take away their sins in the future though they would still need to repent but they would be punished and saved later though some would remain as God left a seed.

From letter 46 of Jerome

jerome saying the world must be restored perhaps refers to all sinners of the world when they repent are restored partly here but in heaven they shall be perfected

“Therefore it is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. Thus it is written, “Sodom shall return to her former estate,”Ezekiel 16:55 that is to say, the world must be restored as it has been before. For we cannot believe that Sodomand Gomorrha, Admah and Zeboim Deuteronomy 29:23 are to be built again: they must be left to lie in ashes forever. We never read of Egypt as put for Jerusalem: it always stands for this world. To collect from Scripture the countless proofs of this would be tedious: I shall adduce but one passage, a passage in which this world is most clearly called Egypt. The apostle Jude, the brother of James, writes thus in his catholic epistle: “I will, therefore, put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this how that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.” Jude 5 And, lest you should fancy Joshua the Son of Nun to be meant, the passage goes on thus: “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he has reserved in everlasting chains, under darkness, unto the judgment of the great day.” Jude 6 Moreover, to convince you that in every place where Egypt, Sodom and Gomorrha are named together it is not these spots, but the present world, which is meant, he mentions them immediately in this sense. “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha,”he writes, “and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

“

Saint Steven · Sep 10, 2020

Here are some notes that I have about the restoration of Sodom, Egypt, Ammon, Moab, Elam and Edom.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah from "eternal" fire

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”

Ezekiel 16:53
“‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The restoration of Ammon and Moab

Zephaniah 2:9
Therefore, as surely as I live,”
declares the Lord Almighty,
the God of Israel,
“surely Moab will become like Sodom,
the Ammonites like Gomorrah—
a place of weeds and salt pits,
a wasteland forever.
The remnant of my people will plunder them;
the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.”

Jeremiah 25:22, 27
21 Edom, Moab and Ammon; ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Jeremiah 49:6
“Yet afterward, I will restore the fortunes of the Ammonites,”
declares the Lord.

Jeremiah 48:4, 47
4 Moab will be broken;
her little ones will cry out.
47 “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Moab
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.
Here ends the judgment on Moab.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The restoration of Elam

Jeremiah 25:25, 27
25 all the kings of Zimri, Elam and Media; ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Jeremiah 49:39
“Yet I will restore the fortunes of Elam
in days to come,”
declares the Lord.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The restoration of Egypt

Jeremiah 25:19, 27
19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his attendants, his officials and all his people, ...
27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’

Ezekiel 29:13-14
“‘Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered.
14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit with a bypass to get around it.

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

mikeforjesus · Sep 11, 2020

I think you are honest in your views but I believe they could be wrong

It is very important to contend for the faith because the devil is deceiving those who are not seeking the truth and who are not diligent to seek the Lord to know the truth and he can deceive believers who were not faithful to spend time with God and to know the Lord like they should be but everyone is responsible not to believe the lie and seek the truth for they have heard before the truth and the scriptures and they know it could be a lie

jesus said if you were of the world the world would love you. But He chose the elect out of the world to inherit the kingdom. That is why He prayed only for those who would believe

Christians were taught to love their enemies that they may believe and that they would repent to be worthy of the kingdom to preach to others. And Christians understood that people must not deny Christ under persecution but take up their cross as Jesus said fear not those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. If they did deny Christ they would later repent and confess Christ in public but people don’t always have the opportunity to repent so they shouldn’t. And Jesus does not want fear of persecution to stop one from preaching but they must not preach to those who they know are hostile to the gospel or those who have heard the gospel. And only when they are open

Saint Steven · Sep 11, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
I think you are honest in your views but I believe they could be wrong

It is very important to contend for the faith because the devil is deceiving those who are not seeking the truth and who are not diligent to seek the Lord to know the truth and he can deceive believers who were not faithful to spend time with God and to know the Lord like they should be but everyone is responsible not to believe the lie and seek the truth for they have heard before the truth and the scriptures and they know it could be a lie

Does that mean that you believe that God will not restore Sodom, Egypt, Ammon, Moab, Elam and Edom, as the Bible says? Perhaps you didn't read this bit about Edom.

Edom
Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit with a bypass to get around it.

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

mikeforjesus · Sep 12, 2020

I suspect not as I think that the meaning of when I bring back the captives of Sodom refers perhaps to those who sinned like them but who will repent when hearing about God.

Jerome thinks the land of sodom will never be restored. Edom May be inhabitable but maybe not sodom. You may be able to pass through sections or pass through with special equipment but it is not inhabitable

Jude says the city was destroyed to ashes as an example to those who would afterward live ungodly

so it may never be restored or it may be restored near the end as a sign to the Jews that the prophecies are about to be fulfilled that He will send a deliverer to restore Jerusalem I assume being the 2 witnesses

Saint Steven · Sep 12, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
I suspect not as I think that the meaning of when I bring back the captives of Sodom refers perhaps to those who sinned like them but who will repent when hearing about God.

Jerome thinks the land of sodom will never be restored. Edom May be inhabitable but maybe not sodom. You may be able to pass through sections or pass through with special equipment but it is not inhabitable

Jude says the city was destroyed to ashes as an example to those who would afterward live ungodly

so it may never be restored or it may be restored near the end as a sign to the Jews that the prophecies are about to be fulfilled that He will send a deliver to restore Jerusalem being I assume being the two witnesses

Does the scripture below describe the territory now divided between Israel and Jordan? (nope)

Isaiah 34:8-11
For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause.
9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.
11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it;
the great owl and the raven will nest there.
God will stretch out over Edom
the measuring line of chaos
and the plumb line of desolation.

mikeforjesus · Sep 12, 2020

I agreed that edom may be inhabitable but I’m not sure of sodom but it is not inhabited now

Saint Steven · Sep 12, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
I agreed that edom may be inhabitable but I’m not sure of sodom but it is not inhabited now

The point of this whole study is to show that poetic exaggerated language is being used to describe the burning and smoke.

Obviously this did not continue forever and ever, from generation to generation in Edom. (as the text states) Since it is not happening today. That same type of language is used in this passage below. Which raises the question: If Edom is not burning today but was only for an age, perhaps the Lake of Fire is the same. Only for an age, not forever and ever. Which is exaggerated as well. How long is forever? is there anything longer? Then what is forever and ever? (poetic exaggerated language)

Revelation 14:11 KJV
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

mikeforjesus · Sep 12, 2020

I understand now what point you are trying to make but one should be careful not to make conclusions that may not be sure for edom smoke did rise for as long as they existed on earth there is no point of the fire burning still here it was never quenched as long as they exist here why would God keep it burning here but they continue to exist there in hell where Jesus says the worm does not die so Jesus says in that place it will not die and He says the fire is not quenched hell is the place where it is not quenched

Saint Steven · Sep 12, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
I understand now what point you are trying to make but one should be careful not to make conclusions that may not be sure for edom smoke did rise for as long as they existed on earth there is no point of the fire burning still here it was never quenched as long as they exist here why would God keep it burning here but they continue to exist there in hell where Jesus says the worm does not die so Jesus says in that place it will not die and He says the fire is not quenched hell is the place where it is not quenched

Who will go to hell, according to your understanding?

mikeforjesus · Sep 12, 2020

All those who did not believe in Jesus and follow His teachings however there may be some cases where God understands their case if they did not have ability.
I think we can not judge whether God will forgive a person if person life was unfair and grace was hidden from them to overcome if there are persons allowed in the world as such who couldn’t control themselves and are allowed in the world to test people to show the world maybe their environment is not good and unworthy of them and they need to repent because they may not have had ability to control themselves but if they had ability to control themselves then they must

Saint Steven · Sep 12, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
All those who did not believe in Jesus and follow His teachings however there may be some cases where God understands their case if they did not have the ability

So there are exceptions to the rule.
("All those who did not believe in Jesus and follow His teachings")
Are the exceptions applied in this life, or in the afterlife?

And would that include the countless billions that had never heard of Jesus Christ?

mikeforjesus · Sep 12, 2020

I think maybe some God did not give them ability to understand such as those with handicaps and even if they try they will never know they did not intentionally not seek the truth but their heart is open and they do good

Saint Steven · Sep 12, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
I think maybe some God did not give them ability to understand such as those with handicaps and even if they try they will never know they did not intentionally not seek the truth but their heart is open and they do good

Do you believe that everyone born into Adam's race is born into the condemnation of sin?

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Saint Steven · Sep 12, 2020

mikeforjesus said:
I think maybe some God did not give them ability to understand such as those with handicaps and even if they try they will never know they did not intentionally not seek the truth but their heart is open and they do good

Don't you also believe that there are those who never had the opportunity? Those who had never even heard the name of Jesus?

You said hell was for "All those who did not believe in Jesus and follow His teachings"

They would have to hear of him, to believe in Him and follow His teachings.

mikeforjesus · Sep 12, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Do you believe that everyone born into Adam's race is born into the condemnation of sin?

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

I said already the sacrifice is given to allow all people to have life the many sinners which are all could all be made righteous if they all allow Christ to give them life how else could they be made righteous if not through accepting Christ and allowing Him to give them life

Saint Steven said:
Don't you also believe that there are those who never had the opportunity? Those who had never even heard the name of Jesus?

You said hell was for "All those who did not believe in Jesus and follow His teachings"

They would have to hear of him, to believe in Him and follow His teachings.

Those who could not hear are not required to believe they would be judged by their conscience they know what is right and wrong on some things and can guess the full way but they don’t know it all without revelation

As believers we have duty to contend for the faith

Senior Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Senior Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Senior Member

You can call me Steve

Senior Member

You can call me Steve

Senior Member

You can call me Steve

Senior Member

You can call me Steve

Senior Member

You can call me Steve

Senior Member

You can call me Steve

Senior Member

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Senior Member

Similar threads