As believers we have duty to contend for the faith

[mikeforjesus]

Certain people have crept in unaware bringing destructive heresies by whom the way of truth is blasphemed


Some may be wilfully teaching lies and deceive others


As long as we are believers we may still be saved but we should desire to help people


We can not judge a Christian who does not appear to have followed Christ if God may accept them if there is a factor we do not know but we don’t know either



Can you prove that these passages do not prove that the sodomites will not literally be restored


will the city literally be restored not the people can you prove that it is gentiles that is referred to by sodomites

so it seems I have been deceived I am thinking perhaps people can be saved after death but they will have to freely repent people have the ability to make it an eternal choice then death will be destroyed when all those who are not evil who repent will be saved which could be what Jesus means when He says blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is not forgiven in age to come and God is able to give every one their fair chances God wishes all to be saved but it is their choice to repent or not after death but I think it is a deception which I think is people duty to prove or maybe it is everyone duty to prove to himself though one can save others too if he has knowledge but people are not guaranteed to find if they don’t seek

Ezekiel 16:53-63

53 “When I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, 54 that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when you comforted them. 55 When your sisters, Sodom and her daughtners, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state. 56 For your sister Sodom was not a byword in your mouth in the days of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered. It was like the time of the reproach of the daughters of Syria and all those around her, and of the daughters of the Philistines, who despise you everywhere. 58 You have paid for your lewdness and your abominations,” says the LORD. 59 For thus says the Lord GOD: “I will deal with you as you have done, who despised the oath by breaking the covenant.

An Everlasting Covenant
60 “Nevertheless I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed, when you receive your older and your younger sisters; for I will give them to you for daughters, but not because of My covenant with you. 62 And I will establish My covenant with you. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, 63 that you may remember and be ashamed, and never open your mouth anymore because of your shame, when I provide you an atonement for all you have done,” says the Lord GOD.’ ”

 

[mikeforjesus]

I believe more that the bible does not teach everyone will be saved I just wonder does the bible teach some sodomites will be saved ? I thought maybe some sodomites will be saved but that may not be true

Matthew 16:34-38
34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 35 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? 37 Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?38 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

1 Peter 4:17-18
17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 Now “If the righteous one is scarcely saved,Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

It seems I have already denied Him as the bible says whoever draws back My soul has no pleasure in him. The bible says it is impossible to renew those who fall away that is unless they return back and seek Him diligently. I drawed back because I wanted assurance I will be saved because I thought it would be too difficult to find His way and did not commit to being a disciple so I listened to some universalists a long while ago and got deceived. I stopped believing in it as there were many verses which seem against it and what if I am wrong I concluded I did not need to look deeply on other verses but I was given an explanation which convinced me the verses may not be obvious but I never researched it well


Those Christians who do not believe in eternal judgement as Paul says is the elementary principles in Hebrews May be saved if they persevere and repent but they will not attain to all the rewards of those who win others to Christ unless they are renewed. Everyone who repents and wins others to Christ can have the same reward but maybe temporarily in heaven others will be higher. Only God knows if one who is a universalist will be saved we can not blame them for their beliefs if that is what they believe but we also don’t know if they will be saved but we need to be concerned about multitudes going to hell believing in it.

It is time we defend the faith against universalism if we care or I suppose it is everyone own duty to find out the truth for themselves as they are responsible for themselves or believe it is false and it is my duty to know the truth to help save many

Malachi 2:17
You have wearied the LORD with your words; yet you ask, "How have we wearied Him?" By saying, "All who do evil are good in the sight of the LORD, and in them He delights," or, "Where is the God of justice?"


the bible says this gospel which is the true gospel will be preached in all the world as a witness to the nations and then the end will come it may be too late to repent then as the bible says all will follow the beast whose names are not written in the book of life maybe it just means when the 2 witnesses preach only those who believe will be able to make the decision not to accept the mark but maybe only the Jews will have the chance to accept the gospel if they have not already knowingly accepted the beast and the times of the gentiles are fulfilled when the gospel is preached in all the world or that is their last chance to accept Christ before antichrist appears but perhaps those who accepted Christ and repented and were ready will be raptured or will be ready during the tribulation to help minister to others

the bible says

2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

 

[Saint Steven]

Certain people have crept in unaware bringing destructive heresies by whom the way of truth is blasphemed

I think the real problem is taking the position that anyone who doesn't agree with your particular man-made doctrinal opinion is "creeping in" with "destructive heresies" and "blaspheming the truth". I think that does more damage than letting everyone have their own opinion without being labeled as a "blaspheming heretic".

 

[mikeforjesus]

I am talking about those who know it is wrong or they know it could be but they want to lead people away from the truth I must not judge others but they should search for the truth to help others if it is wrong and they may need to but if they think it may be wrong but they are not sure it is up to God if He will accept them or not

 

[Saint Steven]

... I listened to some universalists a long while ago and got deceived. I stopped believing in it as there were many verses which seem against it and what if I am wrong I concluded I did not need to look deeply on other verses but I was given an explanation which convinced me the verses may not be obvious but I never researched it well


Those Christians who do not believe in eternal judgement as Paul says is the elementary principles in Hebrews May be saved if they persevere and repent but they will not attain to all the rewards of those who win others to Christ unless they are renewed. Everyone who repents and wins others to Christ can have the same reward but maybe temporarily in heaven others will be higher. Only God knows if one who is a universalist will be saved we can not blame them for their beliefs if that is what they believe but we also don’t know if they will be saved but we need to be concerned about multitudes going to hell believing in it.

It is time we defend the faith against universalism if we care or I suppose it is everyone own duty to find out the truth for themselves as they are responsible for themselves or believe it is false and it is my duty to know the truth to help save many

On what basis do you say this? "Only God knows if one who is a universalist will be saved..." You are inferring that Universalists are most likely not saved. Why?

 

[JackRT]

Earlier today on my way to an appointment I was listening to an old interview with Rabbi Johnathan Sachs. He said "As believers it is not our duty to contend or convert. it is our duty to be a blessing"

 

[Saint Steven]

Earlier today on my way to an appointment I was listening to an old interview with Rabbi Johnathan Sachs. He said "As believers it is not our duty to contend or convert. it is our duty to be a blassing"

You misspelled "blasting". - lol

 

[JackRT]

You misspelled "blasting". - lol

Corrected.

 

[Saint Steven]

I am talking about those who know it is wrong or they know it could be but they want to lead people away from the truth I must not judge others but they should search for the truth to help others if it is wrong and they may need to but if they think it may be wrong but they are not sure it is up to God if He will accept them or not

Who is like that? Seems to be a nonsensical response. Here's what you posted originally.

mikeforjesus said: ↑
Certain people have crept in unaware bringing destructive heresies by whom the way of truth is blasphemed...

 

[mikeforjesus]

On what basis do you say this? "Only God knows if one who is a universalist will be saved..." You are inferring that Universalists are most likely not saved. Why?

No I am not though it is a possibility because they take a risk if it is not true but we don’t know if God will hold that against them and whether they have to find the truth

 

[Saint Steven]

No I am not though it is a possibility because they take a risk if it is not true but we don’t know if God will hold that against them and whether they have to find the truth

There are three biblical views of the final judgment. (listed below) None of these views are a salvation issue.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restoration

 

[Saint Steven]

No I am not though it is a possibility because they take a risk if it is not true but we don’t know if God will hold that against them and whether they have to find the truth

If there is anything to be held against anyone, it would be against those who blaspheme the character of our loving heavenly Father by claiming he is some sort of angry volcano god. As if Jesus died to save us from God. Or that God intentionally predestined countless billions to burn for all eternity with no hope of escape. (and call it justice) Including those who had never so much as heard the name of Jesus.

 

[Saint Steven]

No I am not though it is a possibility because they take a risk if it is not true but we don’t know if God will hold that against them and whether they have to find the truth

What sort of a risk?
It sounds like you don't really understand Universal Restoration. Even though you indicate being informed about Universalism.

 

[Saint Steven]

No I am not though it is a possibility because they take a risk if it is not true but we don’t know if God will hold that against them and whether they have to find the truth

Considering your religious affiliation, here is some info you might want to consider. (see below) Why would you take your doctrine from the Western/Latin Church? Perhaps you should dig into your own church history a bit. The roots of the Eastern church are in Universalism. Four of the six theological schools in the early church were Universalist. Only the theology school in Rome taught Damnationism. And they gave us our biased Bible.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

 

[mikeforjesus]

I am only mentioned as oriental orthodox because I can’t change it to Christian. Not one of the very first apostolic fathers who claim to have heard from an apostle or someone who heard from an apostle (though it is not provable to us that such a tradition was known to have been supported by the apostles but God may have arranged for it to be left by people after the apostles death so no one has proof the apostles left it) that all the churches which have apostolic succession do not reject as true taught universal salvation so none of the churches accepted it. I doubt Phillip schaff said that but if he did his statements have no evidence of course some accepted universalism but that does not come from tradition and those churches at the time never accepted universalism officially in a council

 

[Saint Steven]

I am only mentioned as oriental orthodox because I can’t change it to Christian. Not one of the very first apostolic fathers who claim to have heard from an apostle or someone who heard from an apostle (though it is not provable to us that such a tradition was known to have been supported by the apostles but God may have arranged for it to be left by people after the apostles death so no one has proof the apostles left it) that all the churches which have apostolic succession do not reject as true taught universal salvation so none of the churches accepted it. I doubt Phillip schaff said that but if he did his statements have no evidence of course some accepted universalism but that does not come from tradition and those churches at the time never accepted universalism officially in a council

What about the Apostle Paul? He wrote this.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Considering your religious affiliation, here is some info you might want to consider. (see below) Why would you take your doctrine from the Western/Latin Church? Perhaps you should dig into your own church history a bit. The roots of the Eastern church are in Universalism. Four of the six theological schools in the early church were Universalist. Only the theology school in Rome taught Damnationism. And they gave us our biased Bible.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

Below is a quote from an article written by Professor Dr. Richard Bauckham.
Richard Bauckham is Professor of New Testament Studies at the University of St. Andrews

Origen and the Early Church
The most famous and influential advocate of universalism in the early church was Origen, whose teaching on this point was partly anticipated by his predecessor Clement of Alexandria.[5] Origen's universalism[6] belongs to the logic of his whole theological system, which was decisively influenced by his Platonism and depended on his hermeneutical method of discerning the allegorical sense of Scripture behind the literal sense. According to Origen all intelligent beings (men, angels, devils) are created good and equal, but with absolute free will. Some, through the misuse of free will, turned from God and fell into varying degrees of sin. Those who fell furthest became the devils, those whose fall was less disastrous became the souls of men. These are to be restored to God through a process of discipline and chastisement, for which purpose this material world has been created and the pre-existing souls incarnated in human bodies. The process of purification is not complete at death but continues after this life. Nor is it an inevitably upward path: the soul remains free to choose good or evil, and so even after this life may fall again as well as rise. Within this scheme punishment is always; in God's intention, remedial: God is wholly good and His justice serves no other purpose than His good purpose of bringing all souls back to Himself. Thus the torments of hell cannot be endless, though they may last for aeons; the soul in hell remains always free to repent and be restored.

Logically it might seem that Origen's conviction of the inalienable freedom of the soul ought to prevent him from teaching both universalism (for any soul is free to remain obstinate for ever) and the final secure happiness of the saved (who remain free to fall again at any time).[7] In fact Origin seems to have drawn neither conclusion. Given unlimited time, God's purpose will eventually prevail and all souls will be finally, united to Him, never to sin again. The final restoration includes even Satan and the devils.

Origen's scheme conforms to a Platonic pattern of understanding the world as part of a great cycle of the emanation of all things from God and the return of all things to God. Despite the appeal to such texts as 1 Cor. 15: 28 ('God shall be all in all' this has always been a favourite universalist text) the final unity of all things with God is more Platonic than biblical in inspiration. The Platonic pattern of emanation and return was widely influential in Greek theology and provided the same kind of general world-view favouring universalism as Darwinian evolution was to provide for some nineteenth-century universalists, In both cases universalism is achieved by seeing both this earthly life and hell as only stages in the soul's long upward progress towards God, whereas mainstream Christian orthodoxy has always regarded this life as decisive for a man's fate[8] and hell as the final destiny of the wicked.

The doctrine of the final restoration of all souls seems to have been not uncommon in the East during the fourth and fifth centuries. It was clearly taught by Gregory of Nyssa[9] and is attributed to Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia,[10] and some Nestorian theologians.[11] Others, such as Gregory of Nazianzus, regarded it as an open question.[12] Augustine took the trouble to refute several current versions of universalism, as well as views on the extent of salvation which stopped short of universalism but were more generous than his own.[13]

Origen's universalism was involved in the group of doctrines known as 'Origenism', about which there were long controversies in the East. A Council at Constantinople in 543 condemned a list of Origenist errors including Apokatastasis, but whether this condemnation was endorsed by the

[p.49]

Fifth Ecumenical Council (553) seems in doubt. At any rate the condemnation of Origenism discredited universalism in the theological tradition of the East. In the West, not only Origen's heretical reputation but also Augustine's enormous influence ensured that the Augustinian version of the doctrine of hell prevailed almost without question for many centuries. During the Middle Ages universalism is found only in the strongly Platonic system of John Scotus Erigena (dc 877) and in a few of the more pantheistic thinkers in the mystical tradition, for harlot the divine spark in every man must return to its source in God.[14]

 

[mikeforjesus]

What about the Apostle Paul? He wrote this

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

That means because of Christ sacrifice all can have life now and many can be made righteous.

 

[mikeforjesus]

I am puzzled by the verses on sodom being restored but already I think it may mean those of them who would have repented if preached to therefore they did not blaspheme the Holy Spirit. It could refer only to the fact that those nations whom Jerusalem would regard as Sodom for they would think because many of the gentiles were like sodom and the Jews assumed as a nation they were more righteous than sodom having more righteous that God would continue to show mercy to those in Jerusalem who do not repent but Ezekiel was saying Christ would not destroy the whole of Israel He would keep those who repent but as they were not faithful to God would not save them anymore if they keep rejecting Christ he prophesied most of Israel would only be restored in the future when they accept Christ and that is when they recognise that God had accepted the gentiles who they thought He could never accept them because some of them their sins were like sodom before they heard Christ and they thought them not to be chosen forever

 

[Saint Steven]

That means because of Christ sacrifice all can have life now and many can be made righteous.

Well, that's not what it says. You are projecting a meaning on the scripture that is not there. Verse 18 says that Jesus' "... one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people." And in verse 19 "the many" (all) that were "made sinners" through "the disobedience of the one man" (Adam) were the same "the many" that "will be made righteous" through "the obedience of the one man". (Christ)

Saint Steven said: ↑
What about the Apostle Paul? He wrote this

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.