Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

Choose Wisely said:

There is a rapture at the 6th seal, it's just not the Church. Taking a break and then will answer your last question.

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The only rapture in the history of mankind from Adam until now. There will be no other rapture. You all should really figure out what a rapture is, before either of you place it where it does not belong.

Choose Wisely said:

Who said anything about the day of the Lord. You said false doctrine........and that is your opinion and it is in error.

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Neither one of you were able to post scriptures from the Thessalonians where Paul wasn't talking about the day of the Lord/day of Christ. That's what I was talking about.

Choose Wisely said:

Isa 14:8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

Why do the fir trees and the cedars of Lebanon rejoice when the King of Babylon is laid down and SENT TO HELL....................... not the bottomless pit?

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If you can't see that these are names for Satan then we'll just have to agree to disagree disagree...King of Tyre as well in 38....

Ezekiel 31:7 "Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters."


Ezekiel 31:8 "The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty."


Ezekiel 31:9 "I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him."

Well all know it was Satan in Eden.

Ezekiel 31:10 "Therefore thus saith the Lord God; `Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs , and his heart is lifted up in his height;"

This verse parallels this one,

Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the MOST HIGH."

And again,

Isaiah 14:15 "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

Another question, since we know Satan is disguised as an "angel of light" who is the disguise for?

Timtofly said:

The only rapture in the history of mankind from Adam until now. There will be no other rapture. You all should really figure out what a rapture is, before either of you place it where it does not belong.

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Again, what is the first verse in the NT that describes a pretrib rapture?

JulieB67 said:

Ok, post one verse about a pretribulation "rapture" that has nothing to do with the the day of the Lord/ Lord's Day which is when Christ returns.

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Sure, no problem.
Luke 21:6 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

In Luke 21 we also see this verse:
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

So we can ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS and stand before the Son of Man. Also, when these things BEGIN TO COME TO PASS our redemption draws nigh.
WHAT THINGS ARE BEING TALKED ABOUT?
False Christs, wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines and pestilence. When these things begin to come to pass, we can escape all these things. That is the pretribulation rapture of the Church.

JulieB67 said:

And post the very first verse in the NT that posts about a pretrib rapture.

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I am not sure I can identify the VERY 1st verse about the pretrib rapture without additional study.

Choose Wisely said:

Oooohhhh, that's weak. That's all you got. The words "times" and "seasons" prove that there is more than one time and season. Had Paul said, time and season then and only then would you have a valid argument.
1 Thes 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.



1 Thes 5:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

There is no trip back to earth in the passages. It must be made up in an attempt to disprove the pretrib rapture. You got anything solid?

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If we ignore the Greek, you might get away with your English plurals claim.




G5550
χρόνος
chronos
khron'-os
Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.


G2540
καιρός
kairos
kahee-ros'
Of uncertain affinity; an occasion, that is, set or proper time: - X always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while. Compare G5550.
Total KJV occurrences: 86


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Timtofly said:

I am trying to point out the error in all theology, doctrine, and creeds. The Bible is pretty clear, if people would just accept God's Word.

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Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

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Timtofly said:

The only rapture in the history of mankind from Adam until now. There will be no other rapture. You all should really figure out what a rapture is, before either of you place it where it does not belong.

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There are two raptures.......... and the scriptures confirm it. You agree that there will be a pretribulation rapture of the Church? There will also be a prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. We can prove that because there are 144,000 first fruits.............12000 from each tribe. Those 1st fruits are proof that there will be another rapture. As for the nation of Israel, they will remain on earth during the wrath of God. 1/3 flee will flee to a protected place. You should probably understand that 1st fruits are presented to God and when found acceptable........ guarantee the harvest.

BABerean2 said:

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

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I just have one question. How many cut and paste responses do you have? I keep seeing the same old tired unscriptural drivel.

JulieB67 said:

Again, what is the first verse in the NT that describes a pretrib rapture?

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You have not even defined the rapture. Paul defines the rapture as simply those alive at the return of the Lord. Only the book of Revelation can place the when. But the book does not mention the church or rapture in the Judgments. So tell me which time does Christ appear that will take the world by surprise. Will it be before Satan is seen walking around or will Satan be surprised because he cannot keep track of an exact 1260 days? Then add to that, why would the church alive have to endure a literal hell on earth? Christ is not going to be on earth, yet Paul says, we will always be with the Lord. If the Lord is not here, why is the church here. Not even the 144K will be here, because they are also always with the Lord. Revelation 14:3-4
"no one could learn the song except the 144,000 who have been ransomed from the world.
4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins; they follow the Lamb wherever he goes."

Even if you do not accept a literal 144K Jewish male virgins. Even figuratively they are always with the Lamb. The Lamb will not be here during those 3.5 years. The reason is he comes down from heaven to kill all on earth who are still alive at the battle of Armageddon. This is not the Second Coming. The Lamb leaves for 3.5 years, which means the Lamb was already here. The Second Coming is prior to this 3.5 years. The Second Coming is in seal 6. The Lamb is coming to literally kill humans as in the gathering of a harvest. This is the harvest of souls where the body will be killed. All of Jesus' harvest parables were symbolic of the next 2.5 years. The world will all be harvested in physical death. The sheep and wheat will reign with the Lamb for 1000 years. The goats and tares will be burned up and in Death wait for the GWT. Then Satan will demand his time. The Lamb will leave, but in 42 months return as a Lion.

This is when Satan separates his worshippers and beheads all who refuse to worship him. All these should have been a part of the church and bride, but Satan overcame even the elect and deceived many. This time is not a time of endurance it is a time of getting one's head cut off to be saved. Those who endure to the battle of Armageddon will be killed by Christ, Who returns in wrath as a Lion. Those left will be consumed by fire or the sword from His mouth. We know that only those who are beheaded are resurrected to reign. Revelation 20:4
"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years."

This is not a rapture, but a resurrection. So show any verse that shows a rapture after Jesus Christ has come twice. Then prove which coming is a surprise and which one is not a surprise.

BABerean2 said:

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

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Still theology. Any man's opinion can be claimed to trump another man's opinion.

Choose Wisely said:

There are two raptures.......... and the scriptures confirm it. You agree that there will be a pretribulation rapture of the Church? There will also be a prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. We can prove that because there are 144,000 first fruits.............12000 from each tribe. Those 1st fruits are proof that there will be another rapture. As for the nation of Israel, they will remain on earth during the wrath of God. 1/3 flee will flee to a protected place. You should probably understand that 1st fruits are presented to God and when found acceptable........ guarantee the harvest.

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Not a rapture. With the 144K it will be an ascension. There is a difference. Not enough information given to point out the heavenly Mt. Zion. No one will know until the 6th seal is opened and the skies are rolled back. All on earth will literally see the spiritual just as we see the physical. More than likely the sides of the North. Heaven will not be directly above the continent but in the northern skies. The 144k are the Lamb's disciples just like the original 12. This is not the church though that is gathered. It is the population of the final Millennium who is harvested. Still not enough information to jump to conclusions. The Trumpets are for Jacob, not the church. The Seals are for the church, not living Jacob. The next 6 years has nothing to do with the current dead humans in sheol. They are still stuck there for the next 1000 years. The first resurrection in Revelation are only for those who die in the next 6 years who are sheep, wheat, or beheaded for refusing the mark. No one seems to read Revelation. They match up words and cherry pick verses out of context to make a point. Bible study is not a waste of time. Do people listen to the Holy Spirit or come prejudiced with human doctrine and theology?

Timtofly said:

Still theology. Any man's opinion can be claimed to trump another man's opinion.

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God's opinion about the One People of God in John 10:16, beats the Two Peoples of God doctrine, which is not found in the Bible, every time.


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Choose Wisely said:

I just have one question. How many cut and paste responses do you have? I keep seeing the same old tired unscriptural drivel.

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You may consider the scriptures I posted as "drivel", if that is what it takes to get your man-made doctrine to work..


Since the origin of the text was from me, there was no "cut" involved.

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BABerean2 said:

God's opinion about the One People of God in John 10:16, beats the Two Peoples of God doctrine, which is not found in the Bible, every time.

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What do you mean every time. God made a covenant with Noah hundreds of years before Moses led the Hebrews out of Egypt. Was Noah not a person of God? He did not live under the Law of Moses. God's punishment on Adam trumps any punishment of any future covenant. So this year, we are not dealing with a separate nation of Israel. We are dealing with the end of the church. It will be made complete. We are dealing with the end of Adam's punishment. It will be made complete. When the church leaves, and it will, God via the Lamb will present to living Israel their Messiah. The church has no say so whatsoever in God’s plan and will.

The church has taught falsely that it will be here in the next Millennium. It will not be. Does it mean because the church will be with God and biological beings procreating on earth that God deals with two types of people? There are three types right now. Those spiritually alive in Paradise. Those spiritually alive in sheol. Those living on earth. What do you call that doctrine? First we have to get through the part that all in Adam have to die. Then we still need biological humans to reproduce in the next 1000 years. Any who claim that we will have a sinful nature in the next Millennium have some explaining to do. Rebellion? Yes, and death. But this time the sons of God will not be present like in Adam's day. But John does not exactly say. So I am just keeping it in line with what John does say.

It has nothing to do with any theology or doctrine of man. Amil, dispensationalism, all are of man. Revelation is God's Word.

Timtofly said:

Not a rapture. With the 144K it will be an ascension. There is a difference.

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Ok great....... The 144,000 is an ascension. They are before the throne and are the 1st fruits of a harvest. AFTER that, there will be a harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth. This harvest will occur at the 6th seal, before the wrath of God.

Timtofly said:

The 144k are the Lamb's disciples just like the original 12. This is not the church though that is gathered.

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I know it's not the Church.......the Church is in heaven in Revelation 5. They are in heaven before the seals are opened.......pretribulation rapture. It is the 12 tribes across the earth that are raptured pre wrath.

Timtofly said:

The Trumpets are for Jacob, not the church. The Seals are for the church, not living Jacob.

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The Church is in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened...........Pretribulation rapture. See Revelation 5. The 1st 6 seal are the 70th week of Daniel. When Jesus comes at the 6th seal, the 12 tribes across the earth are raptured at the pre wrath rapture. The Nation of Israel remains on earth. Those that flee are in protection as they have a place prepared for them.

Timtofly said:

No one seems to read Revelation. They match up words and cherry pick verses out of context to make a point. Bible study is not a waste of time. Do people listen to the Holy Spirit or come prejudiced with human doctrine and theology?

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Can you explain what is happening in these verses?
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

BABerean2 said:

You may consider the scriptures I posted as "drivel", if that is what it takes to get your man-made doctrine to work.

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Man made doctrine is not necessary when you just read what the scriptures say. We don't need to make up anything.

BABerean2 said:

Since the origin of the text was from me, there was no "cut" involved.

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True, and it's not a cut, it's a copy. You have almost 17,000 posts and it's the same 150 responses being copied over, and over, and over and over and over and over. I guess I could copy my responses and responses to responses and responses to those responses.
I bet you have posted the response "Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah - Malarkey 1000 times. Same weak unscriptural malarkey.

Choose Wisely said:

I bet you have posted the response "Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah - Malarkey 1000 times. Same weak unscriptural malarkey.

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If it is "malarkey", you could prove it is wrong by using scripture, instead of your comment above.

To this date, nobody has attempted to refute what it says, other than a few derogatory comments.

If it is "malarkey" it should be easy to show how the scriptures prove me wrong.

However, it is not easy arguing with what is plainly written in the Word of God.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


Your plurals argument falls apart in the Greek, and this is your response???

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Timtofly said:

So this year, we are not dealing with a separate nation of Israel. We are dealing with the end of the church. It will be made complete.

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Based on Acts of the Apostles 2:36, and Romans 11:1-5, and James 1:1-3, faithful Israel and the Church cannot be separated.

Some of us cannot tell the difference between the Israelite Baal worshipers, and the faithful "remnant" of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5.


The Church does not end before the Second Coming of Christ.

Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


If you are predicting the removal of the Church this year, you should read below the others who have made the same mistake.

Predictions and claims for the Second Coming of Christ - Wikipedia


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Choose Wisely said:

So we can ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS and stand before the Son of Man. Also, when these things BEGIN TO COME TO PASS our redemption draws nigh.
WHAT THINGS ARE BEING TALKED ABOUT?
False Christs, wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines and pestilence. When these things begin to come to pass, we can escape all these things. That is the pretribulation rapture of the Church.

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It's actually Luke 21:36

Well, at least you're not one of them that says Christ's teaching's here was for a select group and not the rest.

Having said that though, Christ was not teaching about a pretrib rapture in any of the gospels.

Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13 all teach about Christ's return and what must happen before that. In Luke 21, he say's


Luke 21:8 "And He said, "Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in My name saying, `I am Christ;' and the time draweth near": go ye not therefore after them."


If a pretrib were to happen, Christ and later Paul would not have given warnings about not being deceived. That's what the tribulation is all about. The deception of Antichrist/Satan.

If a pretrib rapture were true, salvation would be the more important the issue, not deception and warnings about not being deceived. Quite a bit of Christ's teachings have to do with this issue, the 10 virgins, etc.

This is also why Paul says we must move past "salvation" issues and get into the meat of God's word. End times being part of that.

Christ goes on and lays out the signs as he does in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. He says later on in the chapter


Luke 21:35 "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."

Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."


This snare is the tribulation of Antichrist and what we need to escape from. How do we do it? With the entire armour as Paul taught. That's why the entire bible needs to be taken as a whole.

How will we be accounted worthy to escape to stand before the Son of God?

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh ad blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Ephesians 6:14 "Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;"

Ephesians 6:16 "Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.


Ephesians 6:17 "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:"

Ephesians 6:18 "Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints,"

We are talking all saints, there is no label of "church"

And just what do you think the "evil day" is that Paul is so earnestly teaching about?

Luke 21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Matthew 24:13 "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

Matthew 24:23 "Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ,' or 'there,' believe it not."

Matthew 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night." So we see here this is the very subject of 1st 4:17

II Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Matthew 24:44 "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Many Christians today believe he will be here before the tribulation.



Luke 21:27 "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luke 21:28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

He's talking literally during the tribulation.

BABerean2 said:

If it is "malarkey", you could prove it is wrong by using scripture, instead of your comment above.

To this date, nobody has attempted to refute what it says, other than a few derogatory comments.

If it is "malarkey" it should be easy to show how the scriptures prove me wrong.

However, it is not easy arguing with what is plainly written in the Word of God.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

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Once a person comes to understand that God keeps his promises and the nation of Israel has been re-established as was prophesied in Hosea 6:1-3 and Ezekiel 37......among many places, the fallacy of Replacement Theology falls apart. Additionally when one comes to understand that there are two raptures, one for the Church and one for the 12 tribes as can be seen in Luke 21: 22-29.....among other places......all the arguments against Dispensationalism and a Pretribulation Rapture are like dust in the wind.

BABerean2 said:

Your plurals argument falls apart in the Greek, and this is your response???

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I did not respond as I did not see the need. However if you think you have detected a chink in the armor, you should know better than that by now.......surely.

Here what other translations have. It looks as if two could agree with you, the rest, not so much. Certainly there can be errors in translation...........however.......the vast majority seem to agree with the plural. I'm pretty sure that those that are learned and skilled in translation of the Greek are more qualified than you and I. I'll go with the experts.

New International Version
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you,

New Living Translation
Now concerning how and when all this will happen, dear brothers and sisters, we don’t really need to write you.

English Standard Version
Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you.

Berean Study Bible
Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you.

Berean Literal Bible
Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to be written to you.

New American Standard Bible
Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.

New King James Version
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.

King James Bible
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

Christian Standard Bible
About the times and the seasons: Brothers and sisters, you do not need anything to be written to you.

Contemporary English Version
I don't need to write you about the time or date when all this will happen.

Good News Translation
There is no need to write you, friends, about the times and occasions when these things will happen.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
About the times and the seasons: Brothers, you do not need anything to be written to you.

International Standard Version
Now you do not need to have anything written to you about times and dates, brothers,

NET Bible
Now on the topic of times and seasons, brothers and sisters, you have no need for anything to be written to you.

New Heart English Bible
But concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that anything be written to you.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But you do not need to be written to about times and seasons, my brethren,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Brothers and sisters, you don't need anyone to write to you about times and dates.

New American Standard 1977
Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.

King James 2000 Bible
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I write unto you.

American King James Version
But of the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that I write to you.

American Standard Version
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that aught be written unto you.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But of the times and moments, brethren, you need not, that we should write to you;

Darby Bible Translation
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that ye should be written to,

English Revised Version
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that aught be written unto you.

Webster's Bible Translation
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write to you.

Weymouth New Testament
But as to times and dates it is unnecessary that anything be written to you.

World English Bible
But concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that anything be written to you.

Young's Literal Translation
And concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need of my writing to you,