Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

[Davy]

Are you accusing Paul of being too complicated?

The only accusations going on here are yours in trying to prove I'm not keeping to God's Word as written, and of course that includes Paul's Epistles. Well good luck with that vain work of false witness. I dare you to check out what I have taught directly from God's written Word. Thing is with you though, I don't think you are able to stay in God's Word as written long enough to prove anything; you will have to default to men's doctrines that you are on, which are of course outside of God's written Word.

 

[Choose Wisely]

I know this: there will be no general 'rapture to heaven' of the Church.
You can misread and twist scripture to suit your beliefs, but that doesn't change God's Plan to have His people on earth in His holy Land. Proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, where the holy people of God are present in the holy Land, when that area is conquered by the Anti-Christ. Zechariah 14:1-2, Revelation 12:12
The idea that those holy people are the Jews, is wrong, because they will be punished at the Sixth Seal event and only a remnant will survive. Isaiah 6:11-13, Romans 9:27, +
Also according to Zechariah 12, that Jewish remnant will not acknowledge Jesus until He Returns.
What is obvious; is that you are incorrect and the 'rapture' theory is a lie from the father of lies.

You can sit there and disagree with the written word of God all you want. It's your fallacy and your waste of time. Here we can see those that come out of great tribulation are in heaven, before the throne of God.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Eventually will be in the new Jerusalem, however, currently there are people in heaven and soon more to be raptured there. Like it or not, that's what scripture says.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Because of these verses,

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

I don't know about you but if I'm feeling peace and safety and then sudden destruction comes I'm going to be pretty shocked.

You seem to have left off the verse that disproves what you are saying.
1 Thes 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Those believers on earth at that time will be very aware when the day of the Lord is coming. For one thing they will see the signs of the sun, moon and stars............immediately after the tribulation. So your comments are left wanting..........again.

 

[BABerean2]

You seem to have left off the verse that disproves what you are saying.
1 Thes 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Those believers on earth at that time will be very aware when the day of the Lord is coming. For one thing they will see the signs of the sun, moon and stars............immediately after the tribulation. So your comments are left wanting..........again.

You are ignoring the words "we", and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10, which prove at least part of chapter 5 refers to believers, and that chapter 4 cannot be separated from chapter 5.

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Pretrib Paradox: By former Pretrib believer Steven Straub

It was the understanding of the majority of the Church for about 1800 years that Christ would gather His Church at the beginning of His Second Coming.
Are you saying all of those people had no understanding of this passage?

If you look at the thousands of pages of commentary and sermons written at the time of the Revolutionary War, how many of those old time preachers would agree with you?


.

 

[JulieB67]

Those believers on earth at that time will be very aware when the day of the Lord is coming. For one thing they will see the signs of the sun, moon and stars............immediately after the tribulation. So your comments are left wanting..........again

That's the point, many Christians are in darkness to the fact that Christ does not return until the 7th trump. That's also why many are setting themselves up to take part in the falling away that Paul taught about.

Christ taught that Christians will come up to him when he returns and he will turn them away and saying he doesn't know them.

But the only way that the day doesn't over take us as a thief is if we that wait upon the true Christ and don't fall off for the first one that arrives.

I Thessalonians 5:5 "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

I Thessalonians 5:6 "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

We are to watch as Christ and Paul taught. What do we watch for? The signs that Christ lays out in the gospels, Paul and John being witnesses as well. And to know the order of events as Christ lays out in the seals. The very first one of importance -Antichrist arriving on the first white horse. These are the things we must watch for so that day does not overtake us.

That's the point. These are the ones that will be looking up and know their redemption is near.

The rest as I said, will think Christ is already here (most of the world)

Daniel 11:32 "And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries; but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits."

These are the Christians that know from the very first seal that Antichrist will be here before the true Christ. They know the true Christ doesn't return until the 7th trump. The rest of the world will be thinking peace and safety and then then God's wrath will be upon them.

When Christ says he comes at an hour most do not expect it's because, as I said, many of the Christian world expect him to arrive first. That's also why he warns to not us be harvested out of season. Some will be harvested when the anti (instead of) christ comes and that's why many families will betray one another and so on at that time.

That's why Christ taught that "one will be taken, the other left.

Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."

Do you know what the word "taken" means in this verse? It is the Greek word 3880 paralambano and it means to receive near i.e. associate oneself with (in a familiar intimate act or relation, to learn, to receive.

These are the ones that will be taken in by Antichrist, that is the snare that comes over the entire world. And they will be the ones receiving his mark.

Paul talks about a falling away which must be substantial. These Christians will be thinking he is their true savior.

If taken meant anything else such as a rapture, Greek word 522 would have been used as it is in this verse,

Matthew 9:15 "And Jesus said unto them, "Can the children of the bride chamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast."

The word taken in this verse is apairo and it actually does mean lift off, remove, take away.

Christ is talking about two different types of people, those taken by antichrist and those left. And if you go by the rest of the NT these would be those that are left "standing". These are the ones that will be able to stand before the son of God. The rest will be praying for mountains to fall on them.

This is why Paul says that day doesn't have to overtake us as a thief.

This is also why he's teaching us to have the full armour on to be able to stand in that "evil day"

You still never had a thought on what that "evil day" might be?

 

[iamlamad]

You seem to have left off the verse that disproves what you are saying.
1 Thes 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Those believers on earth at that time will be very aware when the day of the Lord is coming. For one thing they will see the signs of the sun, moon and stars............immediately after the tribulation. So your comments are left wanting..........again.

YOu were doing SO WELL here:
"Those believers on earth at that time will be very aware when the day of the Lord is coming. For one thing they will see the signs of the sun, moon and stars."
But then you blew it when you added: .immediately after the tribulation.

Where does the DAY start? After the tribulation? NO! Not a chance! John starts the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath BEFORE any part of "the tribulation" or 70th week. Note carefully:

the 6th seal starts the DAY.
The 7th seal starts the WEEK.
the 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT
The 7th vial ENDS the week.

Where you miss it:
The signs in the sun and moon will come TWICE: first before "the trib" as the sign for the start of the Day of the Lord. here both the sun and moon are VISIBLE.

then again a similar sign will be seen AFTER the trib' but this sign will be very different: it will be TOTAL DARKNESS: not even the stars will be seen. NO sun, NO moon, NO stars = total darkness. This will be the sign for the coming of the LORD!

 

[iamlamad]

You can sit there and disagree with the written word of God all you want. It's your fallacy and your waste of time. Here we can see those that come out of great tribulation are in heaven, before the throne of God.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Eventually will be in the new Jerusalem, however, currently there are people in heaven and soon more to be raptured there. Like it or not, that's what scripture says.

I agree with you here. It is fallacy that we don't go to heaven. It is scripture that we do.

 

[Choose Wisely]

That's the point, many Christians are in darkness to the fact that Christ does not return until the 7th trump. That's also why many are setting themselves up to take part in the falling away that Paul taught about.

Christ taught that Christians will come up to him when he returns and he will turn them away and saying he doesn't know them.

But the only way that the day doesn't over take us as a thief is if we that wait upon the true Christ and don't fall off for the first one that arrives.

I Thessalonians 5:5 "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

I Thessalonians 5:6 "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

We are to watch as Christ and Paul taught. What do we watch for? The signs that Christ lays out in the gospels, Paul and John being witnesses as well. And to know the order of events as Christ lays out in the seals. The very first one of importance -Antichrist arriving on the first white horse. These are the things we must watch for so that day does not overtake us.

That's the point. These are the ones that will be looking up and know their redemption is near.

The Church will already raptured before the tribulation happens. Additionally they will not be here when the wrath of God occurs after the tribulation.
Luke21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Luke21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The verses regarding the day of the Lord have to do with the twelve tribes across the earth whose eyes will be opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Christ is talking about two different types of people, those taken by antichrist and those left. And if you go by the rest of the NT these would be those that are left "standing". These are the ones that will be able to stand before the son of God. The rest will be praying for mountains to fall on them.

This is why Paul says that day doesn't have to overtake us as a thief.

This is also why he's teaching us to have the full armour on to be able to stand in that "evil day"

You still never had a thought on what that "evil day" might be?

The reason I didn't answer you is that you post so much stuff and sometimes I have things to do. I might just answer one part and I'm out the door.
I would venture to say that evil day is likely the day that the Antichrist declares himself God in the Temple.
Of course these verses about standing in the evil day will not apply to the mostly Gentile Church as we will not be here as we will be raptured when they see these things (Wars and rumors of wars, nations against nations, famines and pestilence) BEGIN to come to pass.

 

[Choose Wisely]

YOu were doing SO WELL here:
"Those believers on earth at that time will be very aware when the day of the Lord is coming. For one thing they will see the signs of the sun, moon and stars."
But then you blew it when you added: .immediately after the tribulation.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then the wrath of God begins. See Revelation 6.

Where does the DAY start? After the tribulation? NO! Not a chance! John starts the Day of the Lord or the Day of His wrath BEFORE any part of "the tribulation" or 70th week. Note carefully:

the 6th seal starts the DAY.
The 7th seal starts the WEEK.
the 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT
The 7th vial ENDS the week.

You continue your habit of making things up.
The 6th seal shows people people wanting to hide because they know the day of the Lord is about to happen. It cannot happen until the 7th seal is opened.............. and begins with the 1st trumpet.
The week is complete when Jesus comes at the 6th seal. There will be a rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth.
The 7th trumpet is the end of Gods wrath.................Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Also................Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
The 7th vial is also the end of Gods wrath....................Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Where you miss it:
The signs in the sun and moon will come TWICE: first before "the trib" as the sign for the start of the Day of the Lord. here both the sun and moon are VISIBLE.

then again a similar sign will be seen AFTER the trib' but this sign will be very different: it will be TOTAL DARKNESS: not even the stars will be seen. NO sun, NO moon, NO stars = total darkness. This will be the sign for the coming of the LORD!

Do you not know that when there is a lunar eclipse the moon becomes dark before it turns to the color of blood?????????????????????? As I've told you in the past, you need to quit making things up.........just read what it says..........and accept what is written.

 

[Choose Wisely]

In the video below Jacob Rothschild reveals how his family created the modern State of Israel. Rothschild did not give any of the credit to God.

Well do you think he will give any credit to God that he was created by God? The dude is clueless that he did what was prophesied.

Who are the people found in Revelation 2:9, and Revelation 3:9, based on what Paul said below.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

You may be familiar with a group of people that think that they have replaced Israel and that God will not keep His prophesied word. Those are the only ones that I am aware of that claim to be Jews and are not. Soon the fullness of the Gentiles will come in and then part of Israel will see. And then those that claim to be Jews and are not, will see that God keeps His word.

 

[JulieB67]

The reason I didn't answer you is that you post so much stuff

Sorry, when I post here, I try and inject as much scripture as possible. Of course you, for the most part see them as "alot of verses" with no context. So I'm taking it we're done here..

 

[Choose Wisely]

You are ignoring the words "we", and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10, which prove at least part of chapter 5 refers to believers, and that chapter 4 cannot be separated from chapter 5.

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

I did not ignore it.............I just made note of the times and seasons.

It was the understanding of the majority of the Church for about 1800 years that Christ would gather His Church at the beginning of His Second Coming.

Are you saying all of those people had no understanding of this passage?

You seem to be ignoring quite a few facts and circumstances.....but no matter..........let's pretend you are correct. Whether someone does or does not understand a verse has no bearing on what is truth.

If you look at the thousands of pages of commentary and sermons written at the time of the Revolutionary War, how many of those old time preachers would agree with you?

And how many of those old preachers were living when men run to and fro and knowledge was greatly increased?
Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Sorry, when I post here, I try and inject as much scripture as possible. Of course you, for the most part see them as "alot of verses" with no context. So I'm taking it we're done here..

You were done when I completely dismantled your first post. You post a lot of scripture that is not in context with what is being discussed.
Remember this............You can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass........and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.
Or you can hang around for the action.

 

[iamlamad]

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then the wrath of God begins. See Revelation 6.

You continue your habit of making things up.
The 6th seal shows people people wanting to hide because they know the day of the Lord is about to happen. It cannot happen until the 7th seal is opened.............. and begins with the 1st trumpet.
The week is complete when Jesus comes at the 6th seal. There will be a rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth.
The 7th trumpet is the end of Gods wrath.................Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Also................Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
The 7th vial is also the end of Gods wrath....................Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Do you not know that when there is a lunar eclipse the moon becomes dark before it turns to the color of blood?????????????????????? As I've told you in the past, you need to quit making things up.........just read what it says..........and accept what is written.

they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Then the wrath of God begins. See Revelation 6.
ANY time someone tries to align the signs after the trib to the signs at the 6th seal, I know they lack understanding. There will be over 7 years between these two signs.

Axiom on Revelation: ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

I am making nothing up. You know as well as I that for anyone to KNOW that the moon is red in color, they have to SEE IT: it must be visible. The same goes with the sun appearing black like sackcloth. It would have to be SEEN to know it is fulfilling this prophecy.

The 6th seal shows people people wanting to hide because they know the day of the Lord is about to happen. It cannot happen until the 7th seal is opened.............. and begins with the 1st trumpet.
Can you PROVE this with scripture - or is it just human reasoning? Why not have the DAY start with the great earthquake; then the signs in the sun and moon confirm it is the DAY? Isa. 2 aligns a great earthquake with God's wrath. (We are not far off here.)

The week is complete when Jesus comes at the 6th seal. This is complete MYTH: the week does not even BEGIN until the 7th seal and with the first trumpet. We can prove that the midpoint of the week comes somewhere in chapters 11 through 13, for we have 5 different countdowns from the midpoint to the end in these chapters. You have the week ending before God has it started!

There will be a rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth. What is your scripture for this?

the mystery of God should be finished What is this mystery and how does it relate to the start or end of the week? The answer is, it does not relate. the mystery is that Satan usurped Adam's 6000 year lease, and at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, that 6000 year lease EXPIRES. that is why the kingdoms of the world are TAKEN from Satan and GIVEN to Jesus. That is why Michael goes to war with Satan immediately after.

thy wrath is come, The Greek verb tense here shows no timing information: at best this only shows us that God is STILL angry from the start of His wrath at the start of the DAY of His wrath back at the 6th seal. (note: some Greek scholars suggest that this Greek tense shows an event started in the past.)

the time of the dead, that they should be judged Do you realize this is a prophecy (foretelling) given by the elders? We can read ahead and see that the judgment of the dead is in chapter 20. Here at the midpoint in chapter 11, it is only foretelling future events.

give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints Again prophecy given by the elders and fulfilled in chapter 20.

The 7th vial is also the end of Gods wrath Finally, something we can agree on. However, Jesus is still to return to Armageddon and I suspect He will still have wrath.

By the way, do your due diligence and look up the word "darkened" in Matthew 24. You will find Strong's tells us concerning planets that it means the absence of any light. In other words, the sign in Matthew 24 is TOTAL DARKNESS: neither the sun or the moon nor the stars will be giving ANY light.

 

[iamlamad]

You were done when I completely dismantled your first post. You post a lot of scripture that is not in context with what is being discussed.
Remember this............You can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass........and STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.
Or you can hang around for the action.

Good! It is a choice: Escape what is coming or remain behind and live through part of it. (Those left behind will be overcome before they get through it.)

 

[JulieB67]

You were done when I completely dismantled your first post

So says you. For the most part all you have done is completely ignore "scripture" talking about the timing of the Day of the Lord. You couldn't even post scriptures when I asked you to post verses from both books of the Thessalonians where Paul is "not" talking about the Day of the Lord/Day of Christ.

You also posted this,

I am not sure I can identify the VERY 1st verse about the pretrib rapture without additional study

You're on this thread debating this subject and yet you don't even know the first verse in the NT that talks about your strong belief in a pretrib rapture? I can probably guess which ones would be posted but wanted to know which one you thought was the first one.

And you posted this,

The warnings are for those that are here after the Church is gone. He starts us off with:
Matt 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

And since you claim the "Church" is gone already, I asked where is the rapture taught in Matthew 24 or prior to this?

You also posted this which is absolutely incorrect and I showed you why.

The snare is the wrath of God.

All I've done is post scripture backing up my beliefs.

But if you want to feel as if you've dismantled most of my posts with verses I've used by hugely ignoring them as having no context feel free to do so.

 

[BABerean2]

Whether someone does or does not understand a verse has no bearing on what is truth.

Do you really believe your statement above?

Words in scripture have meaning.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

.

 

[BABerean2]

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

You may be familiar with a group of people that think that they have replaced Israel and that God will not keep His prophesied word. Those are the only ones that I am aware of that claim to be Jews and are not. Soon the fullness of the Gentiles will come in and then part of Israel will see. And then those that claim to be Jews and are not, will see that God keeps His word.

If you can get what you believe to agree with all of the scripture below, you will know the truth.
Start with Paul's words at the end of Romans 2.


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.


Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


.

 

[fwGod]

By the way, do your due diligence and look up the word "darkened" in Matthew 24. You will find Strong's tells us concerning planets that it means the absence of any light. In other words, the sign in Matthew 24 is TOTAL DARKNESS: neither the sun or the moon nor the stars will be giving ANY light.

You know as well as I that for anyone to KNOW that the moon is red in color, they have to SEE IT: it must be visible. The same goes with the sun appearing black like sackcloth. It would have to be SEEN to know it is fulfilling this prophecy.

Those two quotes contradict each other.

Matthew 24:29 has no such phrase as "total darkness", you've interpreted 'absense of light' to mean 'total darkness' in the sky. But the Bible text didn't say that. Neither did Strong's commentary mean that. It just meant that the sun's light is blocked from giving it's light to a particular region of an area of land. But so many feet or less than a mile away, the sun's light still shines on the portion of earth facing the sun.

If the sun truly shut down its continuous thermonuclear activity.. then the earth would cool and turn into a frozen planet in short amount of time. But scientifically it couldn't shut down like someone flipping their light switch. The sun would first have to go nova, exhausting it's energy then be similar to the moon.

The text isn't at all saying that any of that would happen. God rested from His creative work on the seventh day in Genesis. But if the sun went nova, God would have to create a new working sun.
And, an entirely new solar system, a new planet earth, and recreate all of mankind which had been annihilated by the solar nova blast.

The apostle Peter said that the earth and heavens would be destroyed by a great heat.. a solar nova?.. then God would make a new heaven and new earth.

But, that won't happen at any time during the seven year Tribulation.

The words "sun darkened" is speaking of 'solar eclipse' and "moon darkened" is speaking of 'lunar eclipse'. There is not a possibility that a solar eclipse and a lunar eclipse could happen at the same time. They only ever both follow after the other.

God has set them to do so to mark the times and the seasons within each month in each year. Therefore, God is not going to change their setting for any event such as to destroy their purpose. Especially when the Jewish culture is built on the movements of the sun, moon, and stars.
So when God sets things in order, he doesn't change that order. If it did change, it would be a disorderly chaos and that would not be a miraculous sign from God. It would be counterproductive of God's will.

The signs of eclipses are normal occurrences, yet the reason why they are called signs is because of when they happen, which is "immediately after the tribulation of those days." There are times when both eclipses happen within two weeks of each other. So the text is saying when a particular season of stress happens it will be followed by both eclipses. There is no indication that any of it is miraculous in nature. Jesus words are the prediction of such coinciding events. Therefore, his words are prophecy.

The falling of stars does not mean every star in the cosmos 'falls from the sky'. It is referring to a seasonal normally occurring meteor shower. The words of Jesus in Mat.24 is using normal occurrences in the sky as reference points that coincide with stressful events. Jesus words are the prediction of such coinciding events. Therefore, his words are prophecy.

So, when they happen, the people can realize that it was prophecy fulfilled, and therefore know that what Jesus says is always truth, and give glory to God in having witnessed it.

 

[iamlamad]

That's the point, many Christians are in darkness to the fact that Christ does not return until the 7th trump. That's also why many are setting themselves up to take part in the falling away that Paul taught about.

Christ taught that Christians will come up to him when he returns and he will turn them away and saying he doesn't know them.

But the only way that the day doesn't over take us as a thief is if we that wait upon the true Christ and don't fall off for the first one that arrives.

I Thessalonians 5:5 "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

I Thessalonians 5:6 "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

We are to watch as Christ and Paul taught. What do we watch for? The signs that Christ lays out in the gospels, Paul and John being witnesses as well. And to know the order of events as Christ lays out in the seals. The very first one of importance -Antichrist arriving on the first white horse. These are the things we must watch for so that day does not overtake us.

That's the point. These are the ones that will be looking up and know their redemption is near.

The rest as I said, will think Christ is already here (most of the world)

Daniel 11:32 "And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries; but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits."

These are the Christians that know from the very first seal that Antichrist will be here before the true Christ. They know the true Christ doesn't return until the 7th trump. The rest of the world will be thinking peace and safety and then then God's wrath will be upon them.

When Christ says he comes at an hour most do not expect it's because, as I said, many of the Christian world expect him to arrive first. That's also why he warns to not us be harvested out of season. Some will be harvested when the anti (instead of) christ comes and that's why many families will betray one another and so on at that time.

That's why Christ taught that "one will be taken, the other left.

Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."

Do you know what the word "taken" means in this verse? It is the Greek word 3880 paralambano and it means to receive near i.e. associate oneself with (in a familiar intimate act or relation, to learn, to receive.

These are the ones that will be taken in by Antichrist, that is the snare that comes over the entire world. And they will be the ones receiving his mark.

Paul talks about a falling away which must be substantial. These Christians will be thinking he is their true savior.

If taken meant anything else such as a rapture, Greek word 522 would have been used as it is in this verse,

Matthew 9:15 "And Jesus said unto them, "Can the children of the bride chamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast."

The word taken in this verse is apairo and it actually does mean lift off, remove, take away.

Christ is talking about two different types of people, those taken by antichrist and those left. And if you go by the rest of the NT these would be those that are left "standing". These are the ones that will be able to stand before the son of God. The rest will be praying for mountains to fall on them.

This is why Paul says that day doesn't have to overtake us as a thief.

This is also why he's teaching us to have the full armour on to be able to stand in that "evil day"

You still never had a thought on what that "evil day" might be?

Christ does not return until the 7th trump. You start out with error. How can we trust anything else?
There is no "return," no "coming" at the 7th trumpet. Have you ever purchased property like a house? Have you ever been to a "closing" where the legal property transfer actually takes place? You leave the closing with the keys to the new property. It is now yours.

This is what happens at the 7th trumpet: a legal "closing" or property exchange: the earth is taken from Satan's possession and given back to its proper owner, Jesus Christ. That is it. NO COMING. NO possession physically. It should be obvious Jesus remains in heaven for His coming to Armageddon is VERY PLAIN in chapter 19.