Against pre-Tribulation Rapture

[iamlamad]

That's also why many are setting themselves up to take part in the falling away that Paul taught about.

Christ taught that Christians will come up to him when he returns and he will turn them away and saying he doesn't know them.

But the only way that the day doesn't over take us as a thief is if we that wait upon the true Christ and don't fall off for the first one that arrives.

I Thessalonians 5:5 "Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

I Thessalonians 5:6 "Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

We are to watch as Christ and Paul taught. What do we watch for? The signs that Christ lays out in the gospels, Paul and John being witnesses as well. And to know the order of events as Christ lays out in the seals. The very first one of importance -Antichrist arriving on the first white horse. These are the things we must watch for so that day does not overtake us.

That's the point. These are the ones that will be looking up and know their redemption is near.

The rest as I said, will think Christ is already here (most of the world)

Daniel 11:32 "And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries; but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits."

These are the Christians that know from the very first seal that Antichrist will be here before the true Christ. They know the true Christ doesn't return until the 7th trump. The rest of the world will be thinking peace and safety and then then God's wrath will be upon them.

When Christ says he comes at an hour most do not expect it's because, as I said, many of the Christian world expect him to arrive first. That's also why he warns to not us be harvested out of season. Some will be harvested when the anti (instead of) christ comes and that's why many families will betray one another and so on at that time.

That's why Christ taught that "one will be taken, the other left.

Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left."

Do you know what the word "taken" means in this verse? It is the Greek word 3880 paralambano and it means to receive near i.e. associate oneself with (in a familiar intimate act or relation, to learn, to receive.

These are the ones that will be taken in by Antichrist, that is the snare that comes over the entire world. And they will be the ones receiving his mark.

Paul talks about a falling away which must be substantial. These Christians will be thinking he is their true savior.

If taken meant anything else such as a rapture, Greek word 522 would have been used as it is in this verse,

Matthew 9:15 "And Jesus said unto them, "Can the children of the bride chamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast."

The word taken in this verse is apairo and it actually does mean lift off, remove, take away.

Christ is talking about two different types of people, those taken by antichrist and those left. And if you go by the rest of the NT these would be those that are left "standing". These are the ones that will be able to stand before the son of God. The rest will be praying for mountains to fall on them.

This is why Paul says that day doesn't have to overtake us as a thief.

This is also why he's teaching us to have the full armour on to be able to stand in that "evil day"

You still never had a thought on what that "evil day" might be?

That's also why many are setting themselves up to take part in the falling away that Paul taught about.
Sorry, but "falling away" is a poor translation: the earlier translations have it as a departing.
Did you ever notice that at the end of verse 3, the man of sin IS revealed? That means somewhere in that verse 3, the one restraining has been "taken out of the way." The ONLY WORD in verse 3 that could possibly be something "taken out of the way" is the word apostasia or a departing. Paul is talking about the CHURCH being taken out of the way so that the man of sin can be revealed in his time.

A much better translation would be a "catching away."

Christ taught that Christians will come up to him when he returns and he will turn them away and saying he doesn't know them. It is a PARABLE: so this is really not true. If he is in the air and in a cloud, how in the world are people going to come up to Him?

if you go by the rest of the NT these would be those that are left "standing" Surprising you should use that word. At the rapture or the big departing (apostasia) those left behind are left standing (stasia or stationary.) Apostasia is a compound word: Apo means a part of a whole (group) taken spatially to a different location and it happen SO FAST it appears those left behind were just standing still - stationary. "Standing" is the word Strong's uses.

But the only way that the day doesn't over take us as a thief is if we that wait upon the true Christ and don't fall off for the first one that arrives.
"That day" of the rapture will take everyone by surprise, because no one will know the day nor the hour. However, while we are raptured, those left behind cannot escape the sudden destruction of the start of the Day of the Lord. It will be day of peace and safety just like TODAY. Then SUDDENLY, without warning, the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves.

the seals. The very first one of importance -Antichrist arriving on the first white horse. Sorry, WRONG AGAIN. The first seal was opened as soon as Jesus ascended and sent the Holy spirit down (1 thes. 5). That seal is to represent the church sent out with the gospel. the church has been waiting all this time at the 5th seal, waiting for that final martyr of the church age. The next event will be the rapture followed hard by the Day of the Lord. (1 thes. 5) (Rev. 6) (Just so you know, the first seals parallel Jesus in Matthew 24. You know, wars, earthquakes, famines, pestilences...of these Jesus said "the end is not yet" meaning, Jesus is still speaking of the church age. His words match seals 2 through 4. They are church age.

Daniel 11:32 "And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries; but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits." This is explicitly about Antiochus Epiphanes. That was history, it is not future. Daniel turns to the future around verse 36.

These are the Christians that know from the very first seal that Antichrist will be here before the true Christ. They know the true Christ doesn't return until the 7th trump. Myth.

many of the Christian world expect him to arrive first. He WILL arrive first for the pretrib gathering of His Bride. Perhaps people that expect to see the Beast first will be left behind. He is coming for those LOOKING For Him.

Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left." This scripture could well fit the pretrib rapture OR it could fit the parable of the tares. It all depends on where those "taken" are taken. "associate oneself with (in a familiar intimate act " would certainly fit how Christ with catch us up when He comes pretrib.

These are the ones that will be taken in by Antichrist, that is the snare that comes over the entire world. And they will be the ones receiving his mark. The truth is, the true church will never SEE the Antichrist, because the church will be caught up before he is even revealed.

Paul talks about a falling away which must be substantial. Paul rather talks about a departing - very substantial - because it is talking about the rapture of the church: billions will suddenly be caught up. It will also be the restrainer "taken out of the way."

If taken meant anything else such as a rapture, Greek word 522 would have been used as it is in this verse, Please don't try and tell God what He should have written!

Christ is talking about two different types of people, those taken by antichrist and those left. OR, He is talking about the rapture, and those taken are escorted back to heaven. (john 14) (1 Thes. 4)

 

[JulieB67]

There is no "return," no "coming" at the 7th trumpet.

Hey, if you want to believe that the the trump of God is not the 7th and last trump, that's fine by me.


I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in
heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.";"

All talking about the Lord's Day and that starts upon Christ's return.

If we are to truly believe Revelation is the Revelation and testimony of Jesus Christ

Why does Christ have John write this to the churches?

Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, A-men.

Right after that John himself is taken in the spirit on the Lord's Day.


Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet,"

It's the Lord's Day, and the trumpet has just sounded.

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

As soon as Christ's returns the kingdoms are his.


Revelation 11:16 "And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,"

Revelation 11:18 "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."


II Timothy 4:1 "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom


Revelation 11:19 "And the temple of God was open in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament : and there were lightning's, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake and great hail.

This all happens when the 7th trump begins to sound.


Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south

This is that same earthquake.


Revelation 19:15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

All of these verses are talking about Christ returning at the 7th and last trump. If you are confused with how everything lines up in Revelation you need to make sure they line up with Christ's teachings in the gospels as well as Paul's teachings in the The Thessalonians so it all fits together. Which it does.

The problem with the rapture doctrine is you don't take the bible as a whole.

 

[JulieB67]

That's also why many are setting themselves up to take part in the falling away that Paul taught about.
Sorry, but "falling away" is a poor translation: the earlier translations have it as a departing.
Did you ever notice that at the end of verse 3, the man of sin IS revealed? That means somewhere in that verse 3, the one restraining has been "taken out of the way." The ONLY WORD in verse 3 that could possibly be something "taken out of the way" is the word apostasia or a departing. Paul is talking about the CHURCH being taken out of the way so that the man of sin can be revealed in his time.

A much better translation would be a "catching away."

Christ taught that Christians will come up to him when he returns and he will turn them away and saying he doesn't know them. It is a PARABLE: so this is really not true. If he is in the air and in a cloud, how in the world are people going to come up to Him?

if you go by the rest of the NT these would be those that are left "standing" Surprising you should use that word. At the rapture or the big departing (apostasia) those left behind are left standing (stasia or stationary.) Apostasia is a compound word: Apo means a part of a whole (group) taken spatially to a different location and it happen SO FAST it appears those left behind were just standing still - stationary. "Standing" is the word Strong's uses.

But the only way that the day doesn't over take us as a thief is if we that wait upon the true Christ and don't fall off for the first one that arrives.
"That day" of the rapture will take everyone by surprise, because no one will know the day nor the hour. However, while we are raptured, those left behind cannot escape the sudden destruction of the start of the Day of the Lord. It will be day of peace and safety just like TODAY. Then SUDDENLY, without warning, the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves.

the seals. The very first one of importance -Antichrist arriving on the first white horse. Sorry, WRONG AGAIN. The first seal was opened as soon as Jesus ascended and sent the Holy spirit down (1 thes. 5). That seal is to represent the church sent out with the gospel. the church has been waiting all this time at the 5th seal, waiting for that final martyr of the church age. The next event will be the rapture followed hard by the Day of the Lord. (1 thes. 5) (Rev. 6) (Just so you know, the first seals parallel Jesus in Matthew 24. You know, wars, earthquakes, famines, pestilences...of these Jesus said "the end is not yet" meaning, Jesus is still speaking of the church age. His words match seals 2 through 4. They are church age.

Daniel 11:32 "And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries; but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits." This is explicitly about Antiochus Epiphanes. That was history, it is not future. Daniel turns to the future around verse 36.

These are the Christians that know from the very first seal that Antichrist will be here before the true Christ. They know the true Christ doesn't return until the 7th trump. Myth.

many of the Christian world expect him to arrive first. He WILL arrive first for the pretrib gathering of His Bride. Perhaps people that expect to see the Beast first will be left behind. He is coming for those LOOKING For Him.

Matthew 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken and the other left." This scripture could well fit the pretrib rapture OR it could fit the parable of the tares. It all depends on where those "taken" are taken. "associate oneself with (in a familiar intimate act " would certainly fit how Christ with catch us up when He comes pretrib.

These are the ones that will be taken in by Antichrist, that is the snare that comes over the entire world. And they will be the ones receiving his mark. The truth is, the true church will never SEE the Antichrist, because the church will be caught up before he is even revealed.

Paul talks about a falling away which must be substantial. Paul rather talks about a departing - very substantial - because it is talking about the rapture of the church: billions will suddenly be caught up. It will also be the restrainer "taken out of the way."

If taken meant anything else such as a rapture, Greek word 522 would have been used as it is in this verse, Please don't try and tell God what He should have written!

Christ is talking about two different types of people, those taken by antichrist and those left. OR, He is talking about the rapture, and those taken are escorted back to heaven. (john 14) (1 Thes. 4)

If taken meant anything else such as a rapture, Greek word 522 would have been used as it is in this verse, Please don't try and tell God what He should have written!

For the record I'm talking about the translator, not God. And the irony is not lost on me that you yourself are trying to change the meanings of other passages. And you have to so it will fit your doctrine. I'm just listing the Greek words and their meanings that go with how the word is utilized in those separate verses. I was applying common sense. And I'm sure the translator got the meaning right in this case even if you don't believe so.

And believe me, as a past pretribber myself I've seen everything you've just posted before many times.

Another problem with the believing in the rapture doctrine, is you have to believe this doesn't really mean this or that doesn't really mean that (translations, etc) and by the time you are finished, much of what you believe in isn't really biblical at all.

Traditions of men make void the true word of God.

 

[keras]

You can sit there and disagree with the written word of God all you want. It's your fallacy and your waste of time. Here we can see those that come out of great tribulation are in heaven, before the throne of God.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Eventually will be in the new Jerusalem, however, currently there are people in heaven and soon more to be raptured there. Like it or not, that's what scripture says.

But scripture does NOT say that those people described in Revelation 7:9-14 are in heaven, You have added that.

You may be familiar with a group of people that think that they have replaced Israel and that God will not keep His prophesied word. Those are the only ones that I am aware of that claim to be Jews and are not. Soon the fullness of the Gentiles will come in and then part of Israel will see. And then those that claim to be Jews and are not, will see that God keeps His word.

We Christians never claim the become Jews. Israelites, yes; but Jews - never.
It is those who make that claim now, that Revelation 2:9 is referring to. The citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, people who do not have proof of their ancestry. People who reject Jesus and are prophesied to be punished in the Lord's Day of wrath and only a remnant will survive.
This truth destroys the idea of them being on earth while you sit in heaven.

 

[Timtofly]

You are ignoring the words "we", and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10, which prove at least part of chapter 5 refers to believers, and that chapter 4 cannot be separated from chapter 5.
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Pretrib Paradox: By former Pretrib believer Steven Straub
It was the understanding of the majority of the Church for about 1800 years that Christ would gather His Church at the beginning of His Second Coming.
Are you saying all of those people had no understanding of this passage?

If you look at the thousands of pages of commentary and sermons written at the time of the Revolutionary War, how many of those old time preachers would agree with you?

What is tribulation and what is the Second Coming? Why is this hard to figure out? Tribulation has been nonstop for some, for hundreds of years. Does that means those who are blessed themselves have to suffer tribulation in order to prove that those who are in constant tribulation are just dreaming? Perhaps we should pray for tribulation instead of God's blessing on us? Some Christians are getting a raw deal, cause others are getting all the blessings those in tribulation are praying for. While those who are blessed waste all God's blessing on world affairs. Those blessed by God, seem to care less about God and demand tribulation comes soon.

Some need to wake up and realize we have been post trib from the day of Pentecost. And no, the Second Coming is not after Satan's 3.5 years. The Second Coming happens a few years before the Celebration of Christ's earthly harvest. By the time Satan figures things out, the rapture will have come and gone, yet some claim the rapture happens for Satan's team. That is the last period of tribulation, all of Satan's team are alive. Is that really the post trib some think will happen? Satan gets 3.5 years. It would be easy to countdown 42 months to the day, Christ will come to kill Satan's team. How can that be a surprise rapture no one is waiting for? So what is the tribulation of those days, and which Coming is a surprise?

 

[iamlamad]

Hey, if you want to believe that the the trump of God is not the 7th and last trump, that's fine by me.


I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in
heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.";"

All talking about the Lord's Day and that starts upon Christ's return.

If we are to truly believe Revelation is the Revelation and testimony of Jesus Christ

Why does Christ have John write this to the churches?

Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, A-men.

Right after that John himself is taken in the spirit on the Lord's Day.


Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet,"

It's the Lord's Day, and the trumpet has just sounded.

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

As soon as Christ's returns the kingdoms are his.


Revelation 11:16 "And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,"

Revelation 11:18 "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."


II Timothy 4:1 "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom


Revelation 11:19 "And the temple of God was open in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament : and there were lightning's, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake and great hail.

This all happens when the 7th trump begins to sound.


Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south

This is that same earthquake.


Revelation 19:15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

All of these verses are talking about Christ returning at the 7th and last trump. If you are confused with how everything lines up in Revelation you need to make sure they line up with Christ's teachings in the gospels as well as Paul's teachings in the The Thessalonians so it all fits together. Which it does.

The problem with the rapture doctrine is you don't take the bible as a whole.

Where you miss it;

Speaking of taking the bible as a whole:
In chapters 11 through 13, we find five (5) mentions of different countdowns, all starting at the midpoint and counting down to the end of the week. In three of them, only the day the countdown starts is mentioned and it is understand that the very next verse is NOT 3 1/2 years later. (the countdown is running in the background.)
In chapter 13, after the mention of the 42 months, John takes the read down the path of the two Beasts and shows what they will do later on in the week. It is written as a parenthesis. In other words, chapter 14 is NOT 42 months later.

In the same way, in chapter 11:2, a 42 month countdown is started. (Verse 11:3 is NOT 42 months later.) In 11:3 another countdown is started: 1260 days of testifying. Again, 11:4 is NOT 1260 days later. This countdown, like all the rest, run in the background through chapters 14, 15, and 16 to the rest of the 70th week. (the week ends at the 7th vial.)

What many people miss, is this: 11:4 through 11:13 are written as a parenthesis. John takes the readers down the last half of the week with the two witnesses. But as soon as the story of the two witnesses ends, the 7th trumpet sounds to mark the MIDPOINT.

Note: the last half of the week goes from the 7th trumpet to the 7th vial.
The 42 months of trampling begin, just days before the midpoint
The 1260 days of testifying begin, just days before the midpoint
The midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet
The 1260 days of fleeing start a few seconds after the midpoint
The time, times and half of time begin at the same time
The 42 months of authority being shortly after the midpoint.

the the second half of the week passes by.
As the 42 months of authority are counting down, so is the time times and half of time counting down, and so is the 1260 days of fleeing counting down, and so is the 1260 days of testifying, and so is the 42 months of trampling: ALL are counting down together, simultaneously.

For the two witnesses: they suddenly SHOW UP and begin their witnessing just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint of the week. They will then testify for 1260 days.
This will take them to just 3 1/2 days before the END of the week (the 7th vial.) so they are put to death just 3 1/2 days before the end of the week. they lay dead those 3 1/2 days, then are resurrected with all the Old Testament saints and with the beheaded AT THE 7th VIAL.

In other words, that great earthquake written in chapter 11 about the two witnesses? It is really the SAME EARTHQUAKE as seen at the 7th vial.

Why does Christ have John write this to the churches?
Revelation 1:7 "Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, A-men. This does not give us any timing. It should be obvious that this is His Rev. 19 coming, where every eye sees Him. It should be just as obvious it cannot be His 1 thes. coming where He remains hidden in a cloud.

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet,"
It's the Lord's Day, and the trumpet has just sounded. No, sorry, it is AS A TRUMPET. It is a voice, NOT a trumpet. And most certainly NOT the 7th trumpet which will mark the midpoint of the week.

II Timothy 4:1 "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom Sorry, He does not appear at the 7th trump. That is MYTH. He does not appear until chapter 19.

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
As soon as Christ's returns the kingdoms are his.
No, the kingdoms are given to Him BEFORE (over 3 1/2 years before) He returns (chapter 19). he gets the kingdoms LEGALLY in chapter 11. He comes to take possession in chapter 19.

thy wrath is come This is PROPHECY given by the elders. In the Greek Verb tense no timing is given: all we can know from this is that God is STILL angry. We also see God still has wrath when the vials are poured out.

the time of the dead, that they should be judged More prophecy: we can read ahead and see that judging the dead is in chapter 20. this is prophecy spoken by the elders.

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south

This is that same earthquake. No, this is NOT the same earthquake. Jesus does not return until chapter 19. This will be some UNKNOWN time after the 7th vial ends the week and so of course after the great earthquake at the 7th vial. There may be 30 days between these two earthquakes.

The problem with the doctrine portrayed in your post is that you lack understanding of these scriptures. It seems you ignore John's chronology.

 

[iamlamad]

What is tribulation and what is the Second Coming? Why is this hard to figure out? Tribulation has been nonstop for some, for hundreds of years. Does that means those who are blessed themselves have to suffer tribulation in order to prove that those who are in constant tribulation are just dreaming? Perhaps we should pray for tribulation instead of God's blessing on us? Some Christians are getting a raw deal, cause others are getting all the blessings those in tribulation are praying for. While those who are blessed waste all God's blessing on world affairs. Those blessed by God, seem to care less about God and demand tribulation comes soon.

Some need to wake up and realize we have been post trib from the day of Pentecost. And no, the Second Coming is not after Satan's 3.5 years. The Second Coming happens a few years before the Celebration of Christ's earthly harvest. By the time Satan figures things out, the rapture will have come and gone, yet some claim the rapture happens for Satan's team. That is the last period of tribulation, all of Satan's team are alive. Is that really the post trib some think will happen? Satan gets 3.5 years. It would be easy to countdown 42 months to the day, Christ will come to kill Satan's team. How can that be a surprise rapture no one is waiting for? So what is the tribulation of those days, and which Coming is a surprise?

No, sorry, no one will be able to count down to either coming. His next coming will be a total surprise. But even His Rev. 19 coming will be as a thief, at an unknown time. He will not come at the 7th vial that ends the week. Some will KNOW He is coming, just won't know when.

Two events BETWEEN the end of the week and His coming will be the marriage and supper.

 

[iamlamad]

For the record I'm talking about the translator, not God. And the irony is not lost on me that you yourself are trying to change the meanings of other passages. And you have to so it will fit your doctrine. I'm just listing the Greek words and their meanings that go with how the word is utilized in those separate verses. I was applying common sense. And I'm sure the translator got the meaning right in this case even if you don't believe so.

And believe me, as a past pretribber myself I've seen everything you've just posted before many times.

Another problem with the believing in the rapture doctrine, is you have to believe this doesn't really mean this or that doesn't really mean that (translations, etc) and by the time you are finished, much of what you believe in isn't really biblical at all.

Traditions of men make void the true word of God.

You say I am changing the meaning. No, I am only understanding what is written.
For example, have you noticed that at the end of 2 thes. 2:3, the man of sin IS revealed?
Did you read in verses 6-8 what MUST happen before he can be revealed?

I don't think we have to do anything with 1 thes. 4 & 5. Paul lays out the pretrib rapture very well. If people don't believe it, it would more be posttribbers. You see, Paul is clear that the rapture will come JUST BEFORE wrath. And John shows us WRATH begins at the 6th seal, before any part of the "trib' or 70th week. That is why I believe in pretrib: it is SCRIPTURAL.

Whoever has taught you that pretribbers must rewrite scripture has not told you the truth.

By the way: please explain how YOU will get to the marriage and supper.

I'm sure the translator got the meaning right Then, please explain how a falling away can be the restrainer taken out of the way. You should understand this MUST be, or words mean nothing. In verse 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED. That means in verse 3a Paul has somehow taken the restrainer out of the way. And without a doubt, it must be done in that word, Apostasia.

Did you know that was a compound word? Do you know what strong's tells us for the first half of the word, Greek APO?

He tells us it means a part of a whole (group) removed spatially from the rest of the group to a distant place. The rest of the Greek word means "stationary" or standing still. In other words, a group of people moved SUDDENLY - so suddenly the rest of the world is seen standing still.

Does this Strong's definition fit a falling away (from what we don't know)? It seems Strong's definition fits the departing of the church FAR BETTER.
Did you know?
Tyndale
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (TYN) Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

Geneva Bible
3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Coverdale Bible
Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

 

[Timtofly]

No, sorry, no one will be able to count down to either coming. His next coming will be a total surprise. But even His Rev. 19 coming will be as a thief, at an unknown time. He will not come at the 7th vial that ends the week. Some will KNOW He is coming, just won't know when.

Two events BETWEEN the end of the week and His coming will be the marriage and supper.

Should it even matter to any the specifics? The point is the battle of Armageddon will be at a specific time, and not a surprise. For one it States God will gather all together. No one at the far reaches of the map hiding out will be safe. God will gather the last of the fallen descendants of Adam, and death will happen. All in Adam will be physically dead. Then the Resurrection of Revelation 20. What verse do you have claims a time lag between the end of the 7th Trumpet and the next day resurrection?

 

[JulieB67]

I don't think we have to do anything with 1 thes. 4 & 5

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape

Do you believe the above verses are talking about a secret rapture or the day of the Lord?

You see, Paul is clear that the rapture will come JUST BEFORE wrath

He's very clear that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. And when people are feeling peace and safety, sudden destruction will come upon them.

Paul has somehow taken the restrainer out of the way. And without a doubt, it must be done in that word, Apostasia.

Again, you have completely changed the very meaning of this word to fit your doctrine. You keep mentioning departing, yes, departing from one's faith. The Strong's also says "defecting from the truth" That is to apostasize. You can keep believing that it means something else but it still won't change the meaning. The fact is since these people will be "defecting from the truth", these will be Christians that will fall for the first Christ on the scene. Even after the warnings that Christ gave out about if someone says "Christ is here or there", believe it not. And since people would rather believe the lie, instead of the truth (the truth that many defected from) it's God that sends the strong delusion. This is all biblical.

You want some real scripture about what starts the reign of Antichrist? Not that you'll believe it but it is biblical.

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

This verse goes hand in hand with this verse and Christ's teaching that some will be delivered up and it will not be them that speak but the Holy Spirit. So the church as you call it will indeed be here.

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

Once Michael and his boot out Satan and his, then the tribulation of Antichrist will start. It has nothing to do with the Church or the Holy Spirit being removed. That is a tradition of man that has been handed down for years. So much people have to change the meaning of some words to fit what they believe. Again, making void the true word of God.

 

[BABerean2]

What is tribulation and what is the Second Coming? Why is this hard to figure out? Tribulation has been nonstop for some, for hundreds of years. Does that means those who are blessed themselves have to suffer tribulation in order to prove that those who are in constant tribulation are just dreaming? Perhaps we should pray for tribulation instead of God's blessing on us? Some Christians are getting a raw deal, cause others are getting all the blessings those in tribulation are praying for. While those who are blessed waste all God's blessing on world affairs. Those blessed by God, seem to care less about God and demand tribulation comes soon.

Some need to wake up and realize we have been post trib from the day of Pentecost. And no, the Second Coming is not after Satan's 3.5 years. The Second Coming happens a few years before the Celebration of Christ's earthly harvest. By the time Satan figures things out, the rapture will have come and gone, yet some claim the rapture happens for Satan's team. That is the last period of tribulation, all of Satan's team are alive. Is that really the post trib some think will happen? Satan gets 3.5 years. It would be easy to countdown 42 months to the day, Christ will come to kill Satan's team. How can that be a surprise rapture no one is waiting for? So what is the tribulation of those days, and which Coming is a surprise?

It you want anyone to believe your narrative found above, you will need to back it up with scripture.

.

 

[BABerean2]

This is what happens at the 7th trumpet: a legal "closing" or property exchange: the earth is taken from Satan's possession and given back to its proper owner, Jesus Christ. That is it. NO COMING. NO possession physically. It should be obvious Jesus remains in heaven for His coming to Armageddon is VERY PLAIN in chapter 19.

If Revelation 11:15-18 means what it says, the Pretrib doctrine would fall apart.

His coming at Armageddon is also found in Revelation 16:15-16.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

 

[jgr]

You say I am changing the meaning. No, I am only understanding what is written.
For example, have you noticed that at the end of 2 thes. 2:3, the man of sin IS revealed?
Did you read in verses 6-8 what MUST happen before he can be revealed?

I don't think we have to do anything with 1 thes. 4 & 5. Paul lays out the pretrib rapture very well. If people don't believe it, it would more be posttribbers. You see, Paul is clear that the rapture will come JUST BEFORE wrath. And John shows us WRATH begins at the 6th seal, before any part of the "trib' or 70th week. That is why I believe in pretrib: it is SCRIPTURAL.

Whoever has taught you that pretribbers must rewrite scripture has not told you the truth.

By the way: please explain how YOU will get to the marriage and supper.

I'm sure the translator got the meaning right Then, please explain how a falling away can be the restrainer taken out of the way. You should understand this MUST be, or words mean nothing. In verse 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED. That means in verse 3a Paul has somehow taken the restrainer out of the way. And without a doubt, it must be done in that word, Apostasia.

Did you know that was a compound word? Do you know what strong's tells us for the first half of the word, Greek APO?

He tells us it means a part of a whole (group) removed spatially from the rest of the group to a distant place. The rest of the Greek word means "stationary" or standing still. In other words, a group of people moved SUDDENLY - so suddenly the rest of the world is seen standing still.

Does this Strong's definition fit a falling away (from what we don't know)? It seems Strong's definition fits the departing of the church FAR BETTER.
Did you know?
Tyndale
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (TYN) Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

Geneva Bible
3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Coverdale Bible
Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 646: ἀποστασία

ἀποστασία, ἀποστασιας, ἡ (ἀφισταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3;

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
falling away, apostacy
Feminine of the same as apostasion; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy") -- falling away, forsake.


Falling away, not flying away.

Sorry, no rapture there.

 

[Choose Wisely]

But scripture does NOT say that those people described in Revelation 7:9-14 are in heaven, You have added that.

So, I have added that the throne of God is in heaven? I would think that even a novice would realize that the throne of God is in heaven. Here is the Biblical support that you apparently need in Psalms.

Psalm 11:4 The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

Additionally, here we can find people in heaven. So your claim that no one goes to heaven, but the scripture clearly says differently.

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

We Christians never claim the become Jews. Israelites, yes; but Jews - never.
It is those who make that claim now, that Revelation 2:9 is referring to. The citizens of the Jewish State of Israel, people who do not have proof of their ancestry. People who reject Jesus and are prophesied to be punished in the Lord's Day of wrath and only a remnant will survive.

Hate to break it to you,but your desires for the punishment of God's people is not going to turn out like you hope
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

This truth destroys the idea of them being on earth while you sit in heaven.

Yeah, destroys................ooooppps. Ouch.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Maybe you can come up with some ideas that are not so easy to shoot down. Probably not.

 

[keras]

So, I have added that the throne of God is in heaven?

What you have added is the people are in heaven.
Revelation 7 never mentions heaven as the place where the Lords people are. That chapter sets an earthly scene in the first 3 verses and that doesn't change.
Heaven is a spiritual place and can be anywhere and everywhere. Ezekiel and Stephen both saw God's Throne while they stood on earth.

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

They are dead people, those martyred for their faith. Proved by Revelation 19:2, where they thank God for His punishment of their killers. Their souls are kept under the Altar in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11

Hate to break it to you,but your desires for the punishment of God's people is not going to turn out like you hope
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

So has their fall and the Gentile acceptance of the Gospel; actually provoked the Jews to jealously? Not that I can see!

Prophecy is clear and I am happy to break it to you: God will destroy His enemies on His soon to happen Day of fiery wrath- INCLUDING all the apostate and unregenerated citizens of the Jewish State of Israel. Romans 9:27
If you seriously want to understand God's Plans, please read carefully Jeremiah 12:14-16 and you will see that only those people who have accepted Jesus now, will be allowed into the holy Land. Ezekiel 20:34-36 also makes this clear.

Maybe you can come up with some ideas that are not so easy to shoot down. Probably not.

What you totally lack is ammunition!
The 'rapture' theory is not Biblical, it contradicts scripture.
Our destiny is not to leave earth, but to be God's people; His Witnesses and His Light to the nations. John 15:27, Matthew 5:14-16

 

[Choose Wisely]

What you have added is the people are in heaven.
Revelation 7 never mentions heaven as the place where the Lords people are. That chapter sets an earthly scene in the first 3 verses and that doesn't change.
Heaven is a spiritual place and can be anywhere and everywhere. Ezekiel and Stephen both saw God's Throne while they stood on earth.

Let's see. Should I believe the scriptures or should I believe some cockamamie crock that you have made up. I think I'll go with the word of God.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

They are dead people, those martyred for their faith. Proved by Revelation 19:2, where they thank God for His punishment of their killers. Their souls are kept under the Altar in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11

When the RAPTURES occur they will be given immortal bodies. If you keep reading in Rev 19 you will see that the armies of God leave heaven and go to earth.
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So has their fall and the Gentile acceptance of the Gospel; actually provoked the Jews to jealously? Not that I can see!

Has the fullness of the Gentiles come in yet? When that harvest occurs part of Israel, the 12 tribes across the earth, will have its eyes opened.
Jer 8:20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

Prophecy is clear and I am happy to break it to you: God will destroy His enemies on His soon to happen Day of fiery wrath- INCLUDING all the apostate and unregenerated citizens of the Jewish State of Israel. Romans 9:27
If you seriously want to understand God's Plans, please read carefully Jeremiah 12:14-16 and you will see that only those people who have accepted Jesus now, will be allowed into the holy Land. Ezekiel 20:34-36 also makes this clear.

Prophecy is clear and yet...............................................................the blind cannot see.

What you totally lack is ammunition!
The 'rapture' theory is not Biblical, it contradicts scripture.
Our destiny is not to leave earth, but to be God's people; His Witnesses and His Light to the nations. John 15:27, Matthew 5:14-16

Our destiny is for a new heaven and a new earth.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[keras]

Our destiny is for a new heaven and a new earth.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Great! We can hold to that final destiny.
But you have a very confused and wrong idea of what must happen before then.

The Word of God, Revelation 7 never mentions heaven as the destination for His people.
Your nasty accusations to me; rebound against you for adding to Revelation.

 

[Choose Wisely]

And since you claim the "Church" is gone already, I asked where is the rapture taught in Matthew 24 or prior to this?

Here is the rapture in Matthew 24. Not sure why you are having trouble finding it?

Matthew 24:
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

[BABerean2]

Here is the rapture in Matthew 24. Not sure why you are having trouble finding it?

Matthew 24:
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Notice that it is the wicked who are "taken" during the days of Noah.


38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


This is related to the parable of the wheat and tares, where the tares are gathered first and burned in the fire, and afterward the wheat is gathered into the barn.

The promoters of the "Left Behind" books and movies did not even get the title right.

.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Notice that it is the wicked who are "taken" during the days of Noah.


38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


This is related to the parable of the wheat and tares, where the tares are gathered first and burned in the fire, and afterward the wheat is gathered into the barn.

The promoters of the "Left Behind" books and movies did not even get the title right.

Just wondering why you claim that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is not the second coming (which I fully agree with) and yet you want to use the wheat and tares analogy that occurs at the second coming.

Sorry bub. Not gonna happen.