Undecided on the Rapture Timing

JacksBratt · Jul 31, 2020

Sorn said:
yes, very close to succeeding in killing those men trapped at the time, or taking them prisoner. You just don't know that that event made the difference, the war may have taken longer but you don't know. Also, once the US had the A-bomb, it was over for both Germany and Japan, regardless of anything else really.

I think you need to understand what the removal of those men did..
Ever hear of the butterfly effect?

Germany was done.. before the "A" bomb.

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

JacksBratt said:
I think you need to understand what the removal of those men did..
Ever hear of the butterfly effect?

Germany was done.. before the "A" bomb.

Not to dwell on this too much but the point was that even if those men had been killed, Germany would still have lost. It wasn't the make or break deal its made out.
Read my post #199

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

JacksBratt said:
Yes, that's what a few thousand people can do.

Now.. think about the ramifications of 2 billion people vanishing.. every part of the globe at the same instant.. Gone...

Just the hysteria alone due to this event.. not to mention what people do in times like that.. Looting rioting, panic.... media trying to explain it..

One cop.. just one cop.. and it caused that... Now.. even if 1 billion vanish?

A world with 2 billion less people would be a very depopulated world, economies would collapse, governments around the world would be in turmoil. It would take time for someone to come to power and then fix all this. Even longer for a world govt etc.
A couple of decades at least!

JacksBratt · Jul 31, 2020

Sorn said:
Well, race relations have been a contentious issue in the US for a LONG time, whatever is happening and wherever these protests and BLM etc lead to, it has not been fast. It has taken generations in fact to lay the groundwork etc.

I understand..

Do you not think that Satan has laid the groundwork through antisemitism, Islamophobia, homophobia, lgbtq, women's liberation, white supremacist, capabilities of cashless societies, internet and social media, evolution, corruption in the presentation of history, dissension in the church, drugs and government involvement, fabrication of beings on other planets and the whole alien seeding concept, genetic engineering in food, animals and people, the explosion of knowledge and technology, the movie and television shows and movie concepts of super hero's, other life forms, supernatural and paranormal....

I mean... really, he has had 2000 years since Christ's death and resurrection... to understand that he is doomed... he is one of the most intelligent created beings in the universe..if not THE most intelligent created being in the universe..

Oh.. he's laid the groundwork... no worries there.

That's not even considering the things that we don't even know about.

JacksBratt · Jul 31, 2020

Sorn said:
Not to dwell on this too much but the point was that even if those men had been killed, Germany would still have lost. It wasn't the make or break deal its made out.
Read my post #199

"Not to dwell on this" ..... Good idea.. neither of us is convincing the other...

Timtofly · Jul 31, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
If you believe that Jesus is still dead and rotting in the ground, then we have a much bigger problem on our hands than the silly rapture nonsense.

-CryptoLutheran

Jesus' human body turned to dust. As do all physical bodies, so yes, we will not agree on the fact that flesh and blood can enter heaven. You claim it can. Paul says it does not, 1 Corinthians 15:48-58.

Those who are dead in Christ are already in Paradise with a changed body. Jesus Christ has a changed body, and all those with Him have changed bodies. Physical death is the process where the physical body is changed into a body that now resides in Paradise.

The rapture is the change of a living physical body in the air. If you want to change the word from "rapture" to "air death", sounds fine to me. Then we which are alive and remain, will be air deathed to meet the Lord in the sky. I mean literally at a certain height the body is going to die any ways. Paul was just slightly more gracious. No one at that time had figured out, you could no longer breath in oxygen at a certain level.

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

JacksBratt said:
I understand..

Do you not think that Satan has laid the groundwork through antisemitism, Islamophobia, homophobia, lgbtq, women's liberation, white supremacist, capabilities of cashless societies, internet and social media, evolution, corruption in the presentation of history, dissension in the church, drugs and government involvement, fabrication of beings on other planets and the whole alien seeding concept, genetic engineering in food, animals and people, the explosion of knowledge and technology, the movie and television shows and movie concepts of super hero's, other life forms, supernatural and paranormal....

I mean... really, he has had 2000 years since Christ's death and resurrection... to understand that he is doomed... he is one of the most intelligent created beings in the universe..if not THE most intelligent created being in the universe..

Oh.. he's laid the groundwork... no worries there.

That's not even considering the things that we don't even know about.

"Islamophobia, homophobia, lgbtq, women's liberation, white supremacist, "
these are all pretty recent.
All these will be forgotten about when people are trying to get the lives back on track after jobs, companies, customers, officials, not to mention friends and family disappear

JacksBratt · Jul 31, 2020

Sorn said:
"Islamophobia, homophobia, lgbtq, women's liberation, white supremacist, "
these are all pretty recent.
All these will be forgotten about when people are trying to get the lives back on track after jobs, companies, customers, officials, not to mention friends and family disappear

I'm very sorry that we disagree..

But, if you don't think that the presence of the church.. the body of Christ and the Holy Spirit.. being on this earth.. has any affect on the world...

Then......We are pathetic.

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

JacksBratt said:
I'm very sorry that we disagree..

But, if you don't think that the presence of the church.. the body of Christ and the Holy Spirit.. being on this earth.. has any affect on the world...

Then......We are pathetic.

I do not think that the Church has no effect but neither do i think that the day after a rapture downtown new york city will be like a ghostbusters movie (with demons of course instead of powder puff men or whatever)

People will still need to put their immediate survival first and its precisely because 2 billion Christians (actually any 2 billion people ) suddenly missing would pretty much wreck many economies that they will do this.
Where they went will not be the number one priority for many people, not for several years until societies are somewhat back to normal, ie people able to work and feed themselves and families, a pretty big deal for most.

JulieB67 · Jul 31, 2020

="Edstano, post: 75219177, member: 429473"](Rev. 3:10). "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently. I will also KEEP YOU FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on earth."

Julie B67 said,
The word "keep" in this verse is Greek 5083 tereo -means to guard (from loss or injury) over by keeping an eye on. If these were raptured people, God would not need to do so.

My reply, OK, If the word "Keep" means to guard per Greek, then explain how will God guard us from being beheaded Rev.20:4, ---- 1/3 of the waters became wormwood and many people died Rev 8:11, ----1/3 of the sea became blood Rev.8:9, ---- Locusts came upon the earth with the power of Scorpions to hurt the people for five months Rev.9:10, -----people were scorched by the heat of the Sun Rev. 16:9? Remember there will be millions of people that will need to be guarded.

The important thing is to have your soul intact. As Christ teaches, those that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. And in your patience, possess ye your souls.

Edstano said:
JulieB67 said, "The wedding takes place in here on earth after the tribulation."

My reply, Rev.19, "After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude IN HEAVEN shouting: Hallelujah" They were cheering the condemnation of the great prostitute. The heavenly scene continues in verse 6-7 "Hallelujah for our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the WEDDING OF THE LAMB has come, and His bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean , was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.)

The above scene takes place in heaven and not on earth.

Yes, this happens after the tribulation- after the great harlot Babylon has been judged.

And of course they're celebrating in Heaven.

Revelation 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

We see that it's coming.

And his wife are the saints he brings with him that have passed on and the saints that made it through tribulation and endured to the end as Christ taught. Not one of the 5 foolish virgins. They remained true and stood, and some overcame Satan by the word of their testimony as stated in all of these verses. John is in fact a second witness to Christ's teachings in the gospels on this.

Mark 13:10 "And the gospel must first be published among all nation

Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost(Spirit)."

Holy Spirit will be there btw, Christ states it.

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Luke 21:19 "In your patience possess ye your souls."

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

Again, here is writing down a second witness to Christ teachings in the gospels.

Revelation 19:8 "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

Everyone keeps trying to use the word "church" to fit their doctrine. But we see here it is indeed the saints that take part in the wedding feast. The same saints that had their full gospel armour on as Paul taught.

Ephesians 6:13 "Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to with stand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Revelation 19:9 "And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

He tells John to write blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper. So we see at this point the supper hasn't taken place yet.

Revelation 19:11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."

Heaven is opened at this point.

Revelation 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

These are the saints that Christ bring with him that have passed on. Again, the supper hasn't happened yet.

Revelation 19:15 "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Revelation 19:16 "And he hath on His vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."

Revelation 19:17 "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;"

Revelation 19:18 "That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great."

Midst of heaven in this verse means mid sky. But we see now comes the gathering of the supper. This takes place after Christ returns, they have left Heaven.

Verse 17 and 18 should take us to what Ezekiel taught in chapter 39 after the battles. Everything happens on the first day when Christ returns.

Ezekiel 39:17 "And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to My sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood."

Ezekiel 39:18 "Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

Edstano said:
I need help explaining how to post quotes.

When you go to copy a quote you want to post (left click) a quote link should appear.

I know this is long but I'd rather post scripture above anything else.

BABerean2 · Jul 31, 2020

JacksBratt said:
That is the results of having the Church and the Holy Spirit on this earth.. Remove it and there is no hope.

Based on Romans 8:9, and Revelation 12:11, the Holy Spirit cannot be removed from the earth before the Second Coming of Christ.

.

JacksBratt · Jul 31, 2020

Timtofly said:
Jesus' human body turned to dust.

What? When? Where is it?

I beg to differ. Christ's body was transformed... Just like ours will be, instantly..

Only those that die and are put in a grave and it does not leave.. .those will turn to dust..

Where is His dust?

Timtofly · Jul 31, 2020

Jamdoc said:
Uh, I thought everyone here was in agreement that Jesus rose from the dead, a physical, bodily resurrection that could be touched and eat, and that that was what our bodies would be like, physical and tangible, but improved and immortal and able to do things that our current bodies cannot.

Without the resurrection of Jesus our faith has no foundation! The Resurrection is EVERYTHING.

1 Corinthians 15:13-18
I don't even know what else to say.

I am not sure why this would prevent a rapture of living people?

Read the Gospel accounts of the Resurrection. Jesus had a body that could not be touched. After his ascension later that day, Jesus did have a body that could be touched. Those in Paradise do not have a flesh and blood body, but they do have a changed body. They had a changed body in sheol. What that body was like, we do not know. It may not have any feelings, or need any food. There may be food in Paradise, who knows? When Jesus died on the Cross, he opened Paradise and all those in sheol were taken to Paradise. They changed locations. All the church in Paradise and any who go there on a daily basis, are waiting until the rapture for the church to be completely restored in glorified bodies.

Some teach the restoration will not be a rapture. Some just live on earth and never go to Paradise. And some humans tell God how things will work out from their point of view. They think eventually heaven will come to earth.

Timtofly · Jul 31, 2020

JacksBratt said:
What? When? Where is it?

I beg to differ. Christ's body was transformed... Just like ours will be, instantly..

Only those that die and are put in a grave and it does not leave.. .those will turn to dust..

Where is His dust?

Where is any one's dust? Lots of humans are cremated. The physical body of Jesus was flesh and blood. It turned back to dust. How is that any different than teaching about an antichrist and one world government? Even in Roman times, the Romans were not the only power on earth. People were very much aware of other rulers and earthly kingdoms.

Sorn · Jul 31, 2020

JulieB67 said:
I decided to watch the first video just to see what this man has to say. No offense (honestly!) but I didn't like how he talked about 1st Thessalonians 4:16 and 17 and then totally skipped going into chapter 5 (manuscripts didn't have chapters) where Paul is continuing the subject and calls the time that Christ returns -"the day of the Lord" and then skipped verses in 2nd Thess that were extremely important to the timing.

At the 31 50: mark he goes into the argument of the "imminent return of Christ" and said nothing needed to happen before our gathering back to Christ. He talked about how the Thessalonians had stopped working and had to be exhorted because they thought Christ would return at any time.

It is true that the Thessalonians were confused and thought Christ would return at any moment and so Paul wrote these verses which he skipped,

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

He posted 2nd Thess 3:10 which was a totally different subject by then.

Our gathering back to Christ will not happen until these events happen. Christ taught the same thing in the gospels.

I'm very weary of people that pull out scriptures but we don't get the context by reading before and after those scriptures. When you do that, you are in danger of losing context. We wouldn't read any other book that way and the bible is no different. We have to read chapter by chapter and verse by verse.

The verses in 2 Thess chpt 2 you quote are about the 2nd coming of Christ, they are not about the rapture, hence why they were not mentioned in the video.

With regard to 2nd Thess 3:10, it's about not being idle and the the video is just saying that one possible motivation for being idle is because a person may have a mistaken belief that His return is imminent and they stop their work.
It may be a bit of stretch but hardly a fatal flaw in the pre-trib rapture argument and there have certainly been cases of people that were so sure that Jesus was about to return on such a such date that they quit jobs a few weeks in advance or gave away houses and possessions etc.

JacksBratt · Jul 31, 2020

Timtofly said:
Where is any one's dust? Lots of humans are cremated.

Yes, we see them put in a coffin, the lid closed and they are either put in the ground or burned.. The ashes are given to the family or put in a grave site..

Jesus' body was gone. The tomb was empty.. No bones, no dust.. Instantly transformed.

Timtofly said:
The physical body of Jesus was flesh and blood. It turned back to dust. How is that any different than teaching about an antichrist and one world government?

Because the bible says that Jesus' body was gone and the tomb was empty..

Because the bible says that all the world will be forced to take the mark and bow to the antichrist..

That's a one world government.

JulieB67 · Jul 31, 2020

Sorn said:
The verses in 2 Thess chpt 2 you quote are about the 2nd coming of Christ

The original subject is where are the dead but then goes into the subject of the day of the Lord

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"
I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

Paul continues on in chapter 5 with the word, "But" the subject hasn't changed and in the manuscripts are no chapters.

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Paul has to write a second letter to the Thessalonians because they thought Christ would return at any time.

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him

The subject is still our gathering back to him.

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

This is where it talks about their confusion by 1st Thessalonians.

He goes on to say that day (the day of the Lord/Day of Christ) shall not happen...

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God

If you read all of these verses (and the chapters that go with the rest of them) you would see that the subject has never changed. It's talking about the same "day"

What you seem to be saying is that the Thessalonians weren't confused or shaken in mind and were right the first time. If that was the case why did Paul come back and say these words to them in their confusion? Paul wouldn't have even addressed it if they were right about the timing.

Sorn said:
With regard to 2nd Thess 3:10, it's about not being idle and the the video is just saying that one possible motivation for being idle is because a person may have a mistaken belief that His return is imminent and they stop their work.

That's why Paul wrote and told them the day was not at hand (not imminent) until certain things must happen.

Edstano · Jul 31, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
So you subscribe to the church-age theory of interpretation.

May I ask, why? On what hermeneutical and exegetical grounds do you base this interpretation on?

Doesn't it make far more sense that St. John who says he's writing to the seven churches which are in Asia is, in fact, writing to the seven churches which are in Asia? And that the words spoken to the Church in Philadelphia is very much to them?

And why do you think Philadelphia represents the modern church? Why not one of the other churches to whom the Apocalypse was written?

It seems to me that a lot of assumptions are being made without any real exegesis being done with the text.

He's been coming soon for two thousand years, and it may be another two thousand.

What we have are God's promises to us through the Gospel, that we belong to Jesus Christ. And so no matter what this world throws at us, we have our salvation, our security, our confidence by the grace of God, through faith, in Jesus Christ who suffered, was crucified, dead, buried, rose on the third day, ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and is coming again on the Last Day as judge of the living and the dead.

Glory to God, the day is coming when the dead shall rise, death shall be no more, and God will make all things new. And there will be life everlasting in the World to Come. Even unto the ages of ages.

That's the Christian hope.

The whole Dispensationalist enterprise is not only terrible eschatology, not only does it play fast and loose with the Scriptures without any care or concern about their context, it--at its core--is another (and therefore false) gospel. And a false gospel is no gospel at all. Indeed, the Apostle calls it anathema.

-CryptoLutheran

Jamdoc · Jul 31, 2020

Timtofly said:
I am not sure why this would prevent a rapture of living people?

Read the Gospel accounts of the Resurrection. Jesus had a body that could not be touched. After his ascension later that day, Jesus did have a body that could be touched. Those in Paradise do not have a flesh and blood body, but they do have a changed body. They had a changed body in sheol. What that body was like, we do not know. It may not have any feelings, or need any food. There may be food in Paradise, who knows? When Jesus died on the Cross, he opened Paradise and all those in sheol were taken to Paradise. They changed locations. All the church in Paradise and any who go there on a daily basis, are waiting until the rapture for the church to be completely restored in glorified bodies.

Mistake 1. Jesus' body COULD be touched as that was the only way that Thomas would believe it's really Him..
John 20:24-28 is quite clear that Jesus had a physical body, not an intangible spirit floaty nebulous spirit.

Some teach the restoration will not be a rapture. Some just live on earth and never go to Paradise. And some humans tell God how things will work out from their point of view. They think eventually heaven will come to earth.

Heaven quite literally does come to earth, a New Earth remade after the old Earth passed away. Heaven is wherever God is, and Revelation 21 says that God comes down to earth to dwell with His people. That makes the New Earth Heaven, because God is what makes Heaven Heaven. Without God Heaven is just.. a place, it's nothing special.

Edstano · Jul 31, 2020

You ask, "And why do you think Philadelphia represents the modern church? Why not one of the other churches to whom the Apocalypse was written?"

Because the text indicates so, that is, the whole world wasn't explored when John wrote the Apocalypse. This church specifically mentions the Great Tribulation which will test everyone alive. Also since Philadelphia is the last church mentioned who else could it then be? None of the other churches mentions anything about testing the whole world or anything about keeping the faithful from the trials of the Great Tribulation.

John was prophesying ahead about this church, while we now have the advantage of looking back over the last 2000 years, as a result, we now know what season we are in, that is, the very last days. Mat. 24:3, the Apostles asked Jesus what will be the signs of His 2nd coming be and the END of the AGE? Jesus lists, deception by false teachers, wars, Nations against each other, famines, earthquakes, wickedness, loss of love, and the gospel of the kingdom will be preached to the whole world then, the END WILL COME. God then takes out in the rapture the born again believers. The Grace Age Ends. But

Mat. 24:15 continues, He deals with the Jews (the abomination standing in the holy place) and people who missed the rapture. Then cone the Great Tribulation, plagues, sun is darkened, moon gives no light, heavenly bodies shaken, and the 2nd coming.

Therefore, Rev.3:10, makes much sense and nails down the pre-tribe rapture. "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will keep you from the hour of trail that is going to come upon the WHOLE WORLD to TEST those who live on the earth."

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