Avoiding the Mark of the beast

BABerean2 said:

Have you ever heard of Pastor John Hagee?

Hagee has claimed modern Orthodox Jews do not need Christ, because they are under a different covenant with God.
This is a form of Dual Covenant Theology, based on race.

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iamlamad said:

I suspect that most of the first readers of John's book thought they were in "great tribulation" then. Nero (or someone like him) had tried to kill John by boiling him in oil - but failed. So he banned John to the island of Patmos. (Little good that did!)

Question: do the two words together: "great" and "tribulation" always have to mean the days Jesus spoke of after the abomination? It seems you think so. Remember, those two words were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus: He went on to say that there would never be other days such as those: not in history or ever in the future. Since this is true, that leaves the two words, "great tribulation" to refer to any time of severe persecution, such as when Nebuchadnezzar forced people to bow to His image upon threat of death. "Tribulation" means pressure - pressure to do something wrong in the eyes of God, such as to take a mark when you know that would doom you to eternal death. "Great" means just as it says, from the Greek "mega" which we get magabyles - meaning a whole lot - or megawatts - again meaning lots of.

What am I saying? Seeing "great tribulation" in scripture does not always mean the days Jesus spoke of that would come after the abomination that will divide the week. Did you not notice this verse?

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

This was a message to a certain person and to those who were sleeping with her. Was God planning on keeping her alive for 2000 years - or perhaps only that God can create "great tribulation" any time He wants?

Next, if you study the bible, you will find that Jesus did not put a title on the last half of the week, only saying "those days" of "great tribulation." People say "the great tribulation," but that is not scriptural.

Do you have any idea how many this group is? They are billions of people! Perhaps 50 generations of believers, plus the final generation of believers plus all the children alive at the time: billions. John is not going to be close enough to recognize any single person. I will give him leeway to NOT know who they were. Perhaps he guessed but was not sure.

I know they cannot be 70th week people for several reasons: first, they are not souls, they appear as normal and complete people. If they were martyrs, we could be sure John would have said so. Next, the rapture crowed will be MANY MANY TIMES BIGGER than the martyr group. Next, the martyrs of the days of GT do not even begin to show up in heaven until chapter 15! Next, every descriptive term John used to describe them SOUNDS exactly like the church.

Next, John wrote in chapter 1, "I John in THE TRIBULATION..." showing that he was in "the tribulation" in his day. But John saw the group long after his day in the vision, a time still future to us. We can be sure, "the tribulation" is still ongoing and martyrs are still be added. Since the Holy Spirit through John has already told us that God considers the church age as "the tribulation," is it too far a stretch that since there will be around 2000 years that He could call the church age as "maga tribulation?"

I had a very similar problem: first, God TOLD me this group was the raptured church, so I had to believe it. But I was greatly troubled by the words. I pondered this for at least a year, trying to come to grips with "great tribulation." I finally did. Those two words together don't have to mean the days Jesus spoke of - and in this case, before the 70th week begins, it does not and indeed cannot.

The "ELDER' who is a representive of the Raptured church now in heaven knows that this bunch of people is not the church Since they ARE the church, this is a false statement. He told John EXACTLY who they were: they came out (one by one) from the church age, "the tribulation" according to John, and here Jesus added mega tribulation, meaning year after year after year meaning LOTS of tribulation.

Finally, since I know by Paul's writing that the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord, and that the 70th week then starts days after the DAY starts, and that the days of GT are not until years later in the last half, I know with certainty that these are NOT 70th week martyrs.

It is good you question this: I spent years questioning it. But I bugged God about it almost constantly!

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Major1 said:

What kind of question is that?????

All I have done is read the Scriptures and comment on what they mean. YOU do not seem to grasp the Scriptures as I do. Is that a reason to be so sarcastic?????

NO ONE said Satan can raise the dead!!!

Your profile says "BAPTIST". I know thousands of Baptist but not a single one of them believe what you have just posted!!!!!!!!!

I am having a real problem even wanting to understand what you said.

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JulieB67 said:

As I've said in other theads I used to believe in a pretrib rapture but changed that belief for myself. I just don't read the scriptures that way although I know others do. I just have to go with Christ saying he comes immediately after the tribulation and Paul having to write a second letter to the Thessalonians because they too, were confused about the timing and then nails down the timing. Both say beware to I will take their word for it and heed their warnings.

So I think all will be here during Satan's/Antichrist reign. I also believe it will be Satan who sits the in the temple. Isaiah 14 is the first witness to that in declaring he will sit on the mount of congregation proclaiming to be God. Perdidtion literally means perish and we know he has already been sentenced to death. (Ezek 28) Why would he have someone else sit in the temple when it's he himself that has always wanted that position? He was made the full pattern, he also looks human and he will be supernatural so once he comes in bringing peace and prosperity and performs the wonders, naturally the whole world will wonder after him. Plus he knows the scriptures better than most. He will have an easy time of it. Paul says that's why we must have the full gospel armour on to fight and stand on that evil day. He will be that good. Sadly most won't be prepared and there will be a falling away.

Revelation say he has horns like a lamb but spoke as a dragon. This of course fits with Paul stating he is tranformed (disguised) as an angel of light. This is how he will be able to fool the whole world and it's God that sends the delusion because people would rather believe the lie. But Christ says he comes at an hour most do not expect. Paul says people will be thinking peace and safety (obviously because they believe their savior is here) but then bam destruction. People will be praying for mountains to fall on them.

Also, the 144, 000 are not all Jewish, only 12 thousand are from the tribe of Judah. You can probably assume Benjamin. But the other tribes were scattered. Abraham's seed is as numerous as the sand.

The Holy Spirit will be here during that time, Christ declares it in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 which states that some will be delivered up at that time for a witness and that the gospel must be preached, then the end will come. Those chapters are talking about the end of this age and his return, that's the subject. He says to not premeditate because it will be the Holy Spirit that will speak through them.

I know Michael will stand up at that time. He is the one with Satan and his. Revelation 12 says there will be a battle and Satan and his will be kicked out at that time at the end of the chapter. That's not a past battle, this is future.

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"

Revelation 12:8 "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."
Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power [authority] of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death

This goes back to Christ's teaching that the gospel must be published and that it will be the Holy Spirit that will speak through them.

Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

We know Christ shortened the time.

Another example of the church still being here at that time,

Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

Revelation 2:11 "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Again, I know others believe differently and will continue to do so that's fine. I'm not here to debate at this time- been there, done that. (also, my house had a back up flood so dealing with many outside issues right now) but wanted to post another side for people who might be reading who are undecided on this.

I just feel like Christ is a the ultimate teacher on this subject so we can't go wrong with his teachings in the gospels -with other witnesses to back him up.

Paul talks about a mystery and it's that "all will be changed" at the last trump. So "all" will still be here before that time.

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