Avoiding the Mark of the beast

Major1 · Jul 6, 2020

iamlamad said:
I agree with that. My point was, He will not leave. He wills still be here.

What do you mean by "saved?" I am not convinced that the born again experience will be available after the rapture that will end the church age.

They (those that turn to God during the 70th week) must come by faith, just as Abraham did. I find it interesting that the "everlasting gospel" in chapter 14 consists of "fear" and "worship" God and give glory to Him. No mention of Christ: He death, burial or His resurrection." It seems Paul's gospel ends with the church.

Saved, meaning that there will be many who come to Christ and be saved from the soon coming judgment.

Revelation 7:14...….
"I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

"LAMB is always a synonym for Christ.

I do agree with your comment for the Scriptures say that The experience or method or even the gospel will change during the tribulation.
One MUST come to Christ by faith just as did Abraham as you correctly said. In addition that, those who come to Christ must keep His commandments.

Revelation 14:12...…...
"Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

It is clear to me that most will be hunted down and killed for their faith.

Major1 · Jul 6, 2020

iamlamad said:
Right: He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down: Rev. 5:6: Circa 32 or 33 AD

Don't you just love it when a plan comes together????

John 16:7 .........
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

Major1 · Jul 6, 2020

iamlamad said:
You equate the removal of the Holy Spirit with the removal of the church. Let's add understanding to knowledge. Who has authority on the earth today: God or the church? Of course it is THE CHURCH: It is written that all authority was given to Jesus but then Jesus said "GO" to the church, showing that He delegated His authority to the church.

In other words, what the Holy Spirit does today on earth, He does through believers. He uses the authority of the believer to accomplish His will. At the rapture, all Believers will be gone. He, the Holy Spirit, will still be here, but He will have no believers to work through to accomplish the Father's will. It will be the restrainer "taken out of the way."

When the Great Commission is finished (also shown
as the testimony of the Two Witnesses being finished) What if the great commission is finished at the pretrib rapture? The door will be shut. The Two Witnesses will have a different "commission."

as the testimony of the Two Witnesses being finished) then the Holy Spirit can be withdrawn and Satan can be loosened and his chief emissary on earth, the Anitchirst, can rise to deceive the Last Saints.

This statement shows a lack of understanding of John's chronology. The two witnesses will BEGIN their testimony just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint abomination. They will testify for 1260 days and be killed just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ends the week. In other words, they will be here DURING the Beast's 42 months - at least most of it. Students of Revelation really must learn John's chronology.

(John wrote 11:4 through 11:13 as a parenthesis, outside of his chronology. The 1260 days of testifying is for the LAST half of the week.)

In fact we can make the argument that Satan cannot be "loosened"
from the Pit and his Antichrist cannot rise until AFTER the Holy Spirit
has been taken away. How could Satan and the Antichrist RULE
when the Great Commission is still ongoing... clearly Jesus said
that HE RULES during the Great Commission;
Revelation does not allow such an argument. First, Satan is not "bound" (so he could be "loosened) until the 1000 year reign. OF COURSE the Holy Spirit will be here during the entire 70th week. There is no scripture anywhere that shows He goes back to heaven after Jesus sent Him down. There should be no question that He will be on earth during the millennial reign.

HOW could Satan and Antichrist rule? Simple, GOD has delegated 42 months of authority to the Beast. The Holy Spirit will VERY MUCH be here on earth to assist those who will be beheaded. Without His help, most would take the mark.

All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore
This shows us that Jesus delegated His authority to the church. He gave the saints authority.

BTW... the correct translation is the "end of the age" (not world)
which indicates the end of the age of the Great Commission. This would have been correct before you added "which indicates..."

Why not just believe it as written? He - God - in the person of the Holy Spirit - is going to be here until the 7th vial ends the 70th week that ends the Jewish age. But does this really tell us He will then go back to heaven? No, I think not. He will be here for the millennial reign.

we see the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
Sorry, but the kingdom of heaven is for all time, not just a specific time. The Kingdom of heaven will be there before the GT, during the GT, and after the GT.

(Satan and the Antichrist could not RULE) until AFTER
all the elect have been "sealed" (saved).
No, this is pure imagination - and cannot be backed up with scripture. The sealing is NOT "saved." It is exactly what it says, the Father's name on their forehead. Since they follow Jesus one could say they are "saved." They are not part of the church. It may be the rapture that convinces them that Jesus IS their Messiah. They are sealed for ONE PURPOSE: their protection during the trumpet judgments - specifically the stinging locusts. (Note: there is no indication that they are "born again.") This is NOT the Holy Spirit seal in their spirit person as all believers have now.

Just so you will know, they are sealed before the 7th seal that will start the week, but the revealed man of sin - turned Beast - will not rule until chapter 13, AFTER the abomination in chapter 11. It seems they, the 144,000 will be caught up to heaven - perhaps before the Beast arises. They are seen in heaven in chapter 14, which is soon after the abomination.

That means the Holy Spirit (but not the church) must be removed BEFORE Satan and the Antichrist are able to have the POWER and SEAT [rule] and AUTHORITY during the Great Tribulation/Revelation Beast.
This has already been shown to be false.

It seems I disagree with almost every point you make.

Good stuff my brother. It is clear that you have done some real in depth study.

I agree with almost everything you said. I would only question this...…..

"All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore
This shows us that Jesus delegated His authority to the church. He gave the saints authority."

I do understand what you are saying, however I would point to the fact the Jesus was speaking directly to the ELEVEN APOSTLES minus Paul who had not yet been called and it seems to me that Jesus was giving to APOSTLES the authority to lay the foundation for the Church.

I say that because Mark seems to go out of his way to identify the ELEVEN.

Mark 16:14-15...….
"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Timtofly · Jul 6, 2020

5thKingdom said:
I said
But 2 Thess says the Man of Sin "sitting" in the Temple must be "revealed" first.
Did you forget about that?

You said:
Well it is Satan so no more mystery.

What makes you think that it is Satan (a spirit) sitting in the Temple?

Satan will not sit in the Temple as a spirit. Satan will sit as an angel of light. Satan is God, in this dream of Satan. The false prophet is his holy spirit. The image is his "human" creation, his beast of antiman, antichrist.

For the last 2500 years, Satan has been this mild manner, god, figure, who helps humanity at a cost. A simple beast with two horns like a lamb, showing humility. But speaking as a dragon when humans fail him. Satan as an angel who has appeared as this god man, offers hope, but can only give sorrow and pain. Satan is still not just this one persona, but goes around still as the Adversary, accusing us before God. That does not stop, until the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, and Being an Adversary no longer applies to the human condition. Adam's 6000 year punishment is over. Revelation 11 and Revelation 12 are leading up to this 3.5 year event portrayed in Revelation 13. This event that is the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

15 The seventh angel sounded his shofar; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,

“The kingdom of the world
has become the Kingdom
of our Lord and his Messiah,
and he will rule forever and ever!”

This is why, Revelation 10:6-7

the One who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it: “There will be no more delay;
7 on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

This is how, Revelation 12:9-10

9 The great dragon was thrown out, that ancient serpent, also known as the Devil and Satan [the Adversary], the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying,
“Now have come God’s victory, power and kingship, and the authority of his Messiah;
because the Accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them day and night before God,
has been thrown out!"

The days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet (The Second Coming week celebration)

Will also be, as pointed out, a possible 3.5 year interruption in the middle of this week of 8 days. Sunday is the start, and Sunday will be the end. This time if Satan is allowed to do anything on earth, like sit on the seat in the temple, can only happen on Wednesday of this week. If it happens, after the 3.5 years, the 2 witnesses will lay dead in Jerusalem the last 3.5 days of this Second Coming week, this week that is the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

This week where all the kingdoms are given over to the Lamb, Jesus Christ. The week, Satan no longer can access heaven as the Adversary. The week the woman, Israel will either hide out and wait, or accept their Messiah. We do not know the events (The Thunderings), so we can only wait to see what happens the days and weeks before the 7th Trumpet. Satan will have just a short period to make his case, to even see if he gets the 3.5 years.

Revelation 14 is one ending. Revelation 15-16 is the ending for the 3.5 year interruption.

Is it just my opinion? Well. I have heard it said by some, that God could have intervened at the first advent on the Cross and change the course of history.

Why does God have to let Satan have 3.5 years? God does not. God could let the week finish, and the 1000 year reign start immediately. It is my strong trust that the church in the next few months could turn the week around, and what John witnessed will never happen. Only the church is the key. Only the church has the key at this moment.
Matthew 16:18-20
"on this rock (Jesus Christ) I will build my Community, and the gates of Sh’ol will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.”
20 Then he warned the talmidim not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

What Jesus accomplished on the Cross, provided the foundation of the church. Now is not the time for the church to give into Satan. Now is the time for the church to pray, humble themselves, turn from their wicked ways, and seek God’s face. Then the keys will cause God to hear from heaven and heal their land. A healed world at the time of the final harvest, will defeat the gates of sheol from having a 3.5 year tribulation. The church asleep, will usher Satan in as their antichrist. That is all they have prepared for.

Major1 · Jul 6, 2020

Timtofly said:
Satan will not sit in the Temple as a spirit. Satan will sit as an angel of light. Satan is God, in this dream of Satan. The false prophet is his holy spirit. The image is his "human" creation, his beast of antiman, antichrist.

For the last 2500 years, Satan has been this mild manner, god, figure, who helps humanity at a cost. A simple beast with two horns like a lamb, showing humility. But speaking as a dragon when humans fail him. Satan as an angel who has appeared as this god man, offers hope, but can only give sorrow and pain. Satan is still not just this one persona, but goes around still as the Adversary, accusing us before God. That does not stop, until the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, and Being an Adversary no longer applies to the human condition. Adam's 6000 year punishment is over. Revelation 11 and Revelation 12 are leading up to this 3.5 year event portrayed in Revelation 13. This event that is the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

15 The seventh angel sounded his shofar; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying,

“The kingdom of the world
has become the Kingdom
of our Lord and his Messiah,
and he will rule forever and ever!”

This is why, Revelation 10:6-7

the One who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it: “There will be no more delay;
7 on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

This is how, Revelation 12:9-10

9 The great dragon was thrown out, that ancient serpent, also known as the Devil and Satan [the Adversary], the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying,
“Now have come God’s victory, power and kingship, and the authority of his Messiah;
because the Accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them day and night before God,
has been thrown out!"

The days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet (The Second Coming week celebration)

Will also be, as pointed out, a possible 3.5 year interruption in the middle of this week of 8 days. Sunday is the start, and Sunday will be the end. This time if Satan is allowed to do anything on earth, like sit on the seat in the temple, can only happen on Wednesday of this week. If it happens, after the 3.5 years, the 2 witnesses will lay dead in Jerusalem the last 3.5 days of this Second Coming week, this week that is the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

This week where all the kingdoms are given over to the Lamb, Jesus Christ. The week, Satan no longer can access heaven as the Adversary. The week the woman, Israel will either hide out and wait, or accept their Messiah. We do not know the events (The Thunderings), so we can only wait to see what happens the days and weeks before the 7th Trumpet. Satan will have just a short period to make his case, to even see if he gets the 3.5 years.

Revelation 14 is one ending. Revelation 15-16 is the ending for the 3.5 year interruption.

Is it just my opinion? Well. I have heard it said by some, that God could have intervened at the first advent on the Cross and change the course of history.

Why does God have to let Satan have 3.5 years? God does not. God could let the week finish, and the 1000 year reign start immediately. It is my strong trust that the church in the next few months could turn the week around, and what John witnessed will never happen. Only the church is the key. Only the church has the key at this moment.
Matthew 16:18-20
"on this rock (Jesus Christ) I will build my Community, and the gates of Sh’ol will not overcome it.
19 I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and whatever you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven.”
20 Then he warned the talmidim not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

What Jesus accomplished on the Cross, provided the foundation of the church. Now is not the time for the church to give into Satan. Now is the time for the church to pray, humble themselves, turn from their wicked ways, and seek God’s face. Then the keys will cause God to hear from heaven and heal their land. A healed world at the time of the final harvest, will defeat the gates of sheol from having a 3.5 year tribulation. The church asleep, will usher Satan in as their antichrist. That is all they have prepared for.

You said...……….
"Satan will not sit in the Temple as a spirit."

You are correct my friend! It will in fact be the ANTI-CHRIST who will sit in the Temple.

God says in 2 Thess. 2:3-4...….
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Satan IS NOT a man so the personality in verse #3 must therefore be the A/C.

You said...……..
"Satan will sit as an angel of light".

I do not agree. Se the above comment.

Then you said...…………...
The false prophet is his holy spirit.

However, Rev. 13:11 says...……..
"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and HE had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Revelation 20:10.....
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Notice that Satan is cast into the LOF and the A/C and False Prophet are already there.

WHY and how can that be????

Revelation 19:20...……...
"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

ALIVE! HUMANS are alive!!!!

Then you said...……..

"The image is his "human" creation, his beast of antiman, antichrist."

But Revelation 13:14 does not agree with your opinion............

"And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

The false Prophet causes the people then TO MAKE AN IMAGE to the A/C.

Timtofly · Jul 6, 2020

Major1 said:
The false Prophet causes the people then TO MAKE AN IMAGE to the A/C.

Satan makes an image of the false prophet. A living beast is cast into the fire. The image is considered a living beast. Never called a man. The false prophet is the only human.

iamlamad · Jul 6, 2020

Major1 said:
Saved, meaning that there will be many who come to Christ and be saved from the soon coming judgment.

Revelation 7:14...….
"I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

"LAMB is always a synonym for Christ.

I do agree with your comment for the Scriptures say that The experience or method or even the gospel will change during the tribulation.
One MUST come to Christ by faith just as did Abraham as you correctly said. In addition that, those who come to Christ must keep His commandments.

Revelation 14:12...…...
"Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

It is clear to me that most will be hunted down and killed for their faith.

I agree that many will turn to God right after the rapture and then later on in the week. However, I don't agree that the great crowd seen in chapter 7 are 70th week martyrs. I think they are church age martyrs. Why?

In chapter 7, John has not yet event started the 70th week, much less arrived at the midpoint when Jesus told us those days of GT would start.
Next, I believe Paul tells us the rapture of the church will come just before wrath, which starts at the 6th seal. since the 5th seal is for church age martyrs and the 6th seal starts wrath, the rapture must come between the two seals. It is going to be RAPTURE/WRATH - no time in between. So it makes sense John would see the raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal.

When it was explained who these were, John wrote "came out of Great tribulation." The Greek word tense is strict: it means a continuous coming as if "one by one. Some argue that these cannot be the raptured church for they get there all at once. However, John is not talking about how they suddenly got from earth to heaven, He is talking about how the got from "the world of sin" in these clothes washed by the blood of the Lamb. The answer is, they came out of the world ONE BY ONE as each believed in Jesus and were born again. That is how they became a part of this large crowd, too large to number. I think God is calling the entire church age as great tribulation. Here it is great because it covers 2000 years.

“Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” This is because the days of GT are about to begin.

iamlamad · Jul 6, 2020

Major1 said:
You said...……….
"Satan will not sit in the Temple as a spirit."

You are correct my friend! It will in fact be the ANTI-CHRIST who will sit in the Temple.

God says in 2 Thess. 2:3-4...….
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

Satan IS NOT a man so the personality in verse #3 must therefore be the A/C.

You said...……..
"Satan will sit as an angel of light".

I do not agree. Se the above comment.

Then you said...…………...
The false prophet is his holy spirit.

However, Rev. 13:11 says...……..
"And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and HE had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Revelation 20:10.....
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Notice that Satan is cast into the LOF and the A/C and False Prophet are already there.

WHY and how can that be????

Revelation 19:20...……...
"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

ALIVE! HUMANS are alive!!!!

Then you said...……..

"The image is his "human" creation, his beast of antiman, antichrist."

But Revelation 13:14 does not agree with your opinion............
"And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

The false Prophet causes the people then TO MAKE AN IMAGE to the A/C.

Good post!

BABerean2 · Jul 6, 2020

iamlamad said:
Good post!

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
2Jn 1:11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

Some of the preachers in our nation must have cut the above references to antichrist out of their Bibles, because they are letting those who deny Christ to speak from the pulpits of their churches.

.

.

Major1 · Jul 7, 2020

Timtofly said:
Satan makes an image of the false prophet. A living beast is cast into the fire. The image is considered a living beast. Never called a man. The false prophet is the only human.

I do not believe that is what the Scriptures say.

You said...……….
"Satan makes an image of the false prophet. "

However the Scriptures actually say in Revelation 13:11...….
"Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon."

Now notice the actual words of the Bible and NOT what someone has told you. The 2nd beast who is a religious PERSON is the False Prophet and HE comes out of the eart, NOT HEAVEN so therefore the False Prophet CAN NOT BE ANYTHING OTHER THAN A HUMAN BEING. Satan was a created being----AN ANGEL and his original home was Heaven and not the EARTH!!!!

There is nothing there in the Scriptures to suggest that the False prophet is Satan. He will be a HUMAN MAN and controlled by Satan just as is the A/C a HUMAN MAN controlled and motivated by Satan.

Now here is a lttle tid bit of information for you and others who are interested.
If the false prophet is a human being, then it would prove that annihilationism and Universalism is false and conditionalists, the Seventh Day Adventists, and the Jehovah's Witnesses would all be proven wrong in their denial of eternal conscious torment in hell.

Now, do you support "Annihilationism" or Universalism????

You see, that is Biblically correct because the false prophet is thrown alive into the lake of fire in Rev. 19:20 ALIVE!!!! It is there in the LOF where he will be tormented day and night forever and ever as told to us in Rev. 20:10.

Major1 · Jul 7, 2020

BABerean2 said:
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
2Jn 1:11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

Some of the preachers in our nation must have cut the above references to antichrist out of their Bibles, because they are letting those who deny Christ to speak from the pulpits of their churches.

.

.

You my brother are 100% correct.

You see, we live in a society today who wants to FEEL GOOD about themselves.

I am reminded of the passage in Isaiah where the prophet says the people want him to say "SMOOTH things, tell us lies"

Major1 · Jul 7, 2020

iamlamad said:
Good post!

Thank you for the flowers and it is a blessing to know that someone else actually reads the Bible!!!!

On this site it is sometimes hard to believe that it is a Christian web site but instead appearances show it is more religious than Christian.

Major1 · Jul 7, 2020

iamlamad said:
I agree that many will turn to God right after the rapture and then later on in the week. However, I don't agree that the great crowd seen in chapter 7 are 70th week martyrs. I think they are church age martyrs. Why?

In chapter 7, John has not yet event started the 70th week, much less arrived at the midpoint when Jesus told us those days of GT would start.
Next, I believe Paul tells us the rapture of the church will come just before wrath, which starts at the 6th seal. since the 5th seal is for church age martyrs and the 6th seal starts wrath, the rapture must come between the two seals. It is going to be RAPTURE/WRATH - no time in between. So it makes sense John would see the raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal.

When it was explained who these were, John wrote "came out of Great tribulation." The Greek word tense is strict: it means a continuous coming as if "one by one. Some argue that these cannot be the raptured church for they get there all at once. However, John is not talking about how they suddenly got from earth to heaven, He is talking about how the got from "the world of sin" in these clothes washed by the blood of the Lamb. The answer is, they came out of the world ONE BY ONE as each believed in Jesus and were born again. That is how they became a part of this large crowd, too large to number. I think God is calling the entire church age as great tribulation. Here it is great because it covers 2000 years.

“Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” This is because the days of GT are about to begin.

IF that group is from the Church age, Then how do we respond to Rev. 7:13-14...…….
"And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

IF those people gathered here that John sees are the Church age believers, don't we have problem with the actual words of...…
"These are they which came out of great Tribulation".

You see, John wrote to the Churches of his day. He knew about the church, he knew about the body of believers, and he wrote to them out of love and great unifying cement that held them together.

BUT according to the actual words of …..
" What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"

That tells me that John DOESN'T KNOW WHO THIS COMPANY OF BELIEVERS ARE!

The "ELDER' who is a representive of the Raptured church now in heaven knows that this bunch of people is not the church and it is he who then says...….
"These are they which came out of great tribulation".

To ME, this says that this is a special company out of all tribes and tongues and nations who have come out of the Great Tribulaton.

iamlamad · Jul 7, 2020

BABerean2 said:
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
2Jn 1:11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

Some of the preachers in our nation must have cut the above references to antichrist out of their Bibles, because they are letting those who deny Christ to speak from the pulpits of their churches.
.

I have never heard such a preacher.

Major1 · Jul 7, 2020

iamlamad said:
I have never heard such a preacher.

God has blessed me all of my life and has allowed me to go to many places and see many things around this old earth and I can promise you my brother that those things are actually said from pulpits of religious places by religious people.

However we all know that there is a great divide between religious and Christian.

iamlamad · Jul 7, 2020

Major1 said:
God has blessed me all of my life and has allowed me to go to many places and see many things around this old earth and I can promise you my brother that those things are actually said from pulpits of religious places by religious people.

However we all know that there is a great divide between religious and Christian.

Agreed: My dad went to a Spiritualist church - you know - where they hold seances. In fact, my dad dug out the basement of said church for a dark room to hold Seances in. Been there and done that. I am well away that some churches teach nonsense. But still, I have never been in a church where Christ is denied. What would their purpose in gathering?

Major1 · Jul 7, 2020

iamlamad said:
Agreed: My dad went to a Spiritualist church - you know - where they hold seances. In fact, my dad dug out the basement of said church for a dark room to hold Seances in. Been there and done that. I am well away that some churches teach nonsense. But still, I have never been in a church where Christ is denied. What would their purpose in gathering?

Do I know....!!????

My brother, I live about 5 miles from the Cassadaga Florida. It is "THE" largest Spiritualist camp I know of in Florida. When you drive through the camp, you can actually feel the presence of evil.

The purpose for those who deny Christ is to propagate their own religion.

1 Tim. 4:1-2...…….
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron".

Consider then all the churches who are now performing weddings for homosexuals.

Again, their is a Baptist church right here in Deland Fl, who actually called a homosexual pastor and he worked in the church for about a year until he started to bring his boy friend to church which for some reason was a step to far for those people.

iamlamad · Jul 7, 2020

Major1 said:
IF that group is from the Church age, Then how do we respond to Rev. 7:13-14...…….
"And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

IF those people gathered here that John sees are the Church age believers, don't we have problem with the actual words of...…
"These are they which came out of great Tribulation".

You see, John wrote to the Churches of his day. He knew about the church, he knew about the body of believers, and he wrote to them out of love and great unifying cement that held them together.

BUT according to the actual words of …..
" What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?"

That tells me that John DOESN'T KNOW WHO THIS COMPANY OF BELIEVERS ARE!

The "ELDER' who is a representive of the Raptured church now in heaven knows that this bunch of people is not the church and it is he who then says...….
"These are they which came out of great tribulation".

To ME, this says that this is a special company out of all tribes and tongues and nations who have come out of the Great Tribulaton.

I suspect that most of the first readers of John's book thought they were in "great tribulation" then. Nero (or someone like him) had tried to kill John by boiling him in oil - but failed. So he banned John to the island of Patmos. (Little good that did!)

Question: do the two words together: "great" and "tribulation" always have to mean the days Jesus spoke of after the abomination? It seems you think so. Remember, those two words were NOT ENOUGH for Jesus: He went on to say that there would never be other days such as those: not in history or ever in the future. Since this is true, that leaves the two words, "great tribulation" to refer to any time of severe persecution, such as when Nebuchadnezzar forced people to bow to His image upon threat of death. "Tribulation" means pressure - pressure to do something wrong in the eyes of God, such as to take a mark when you know that would doom you to eternal death. "Great" means just as it says, from the Greek "mega" which we get magabyles - meaning a whole lot - or megawatts - again meaning lots of.

What am I saying? Seeing "great tribulation" in scripture does not always mean the days Jesus spoke of that would come after the abomination that will divide the week. Did you not notice this verse?

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

This was a message to a certain person and to those who were sleeping with her. Was God planning on keeping her alive for 2000 years - or perhaps only that God can create "great tribulation" any time He wants?

Next, if you study the bible, you will find that Jesus did not put a title on the last half of the week, only saying "those days" of "great tribulation." People say "the great tribulation," but that is not scriptural.

Do you have any idea how many this group is? They are billions of people! Perhaps 50 generations of believers, plus the final generation of believers plus all the children alive at the time: billions. John is not going to be close enough to recognize any single person. I will give him leeway to NOT know who they were. Perhaps he guessed but was not sure.

I know they cannot be 70th week people for several reasons: first, they are not souls, they appear as normal and complete people. If they were martyrs, we could be sure John would have said so. Next, the rapture crowed will be MANY MANY TIMES BIGGER than the martyr group. Next, the martyrs of the days of GT do not even begin to show up in heaven until chapter 15! Next, every descriptive term John used to describe them SOUNDS exactly like the church.

Next, John wrote in chapter 1, "I John in THE TRIBULATION..." showing that he was in "the tribulation" in his day. But John saw the group long after his day in the vision, a time still future to us. We can be sure, "the tribulation" is still ongoing and martyrs are still be added. Since the Holy Spirit through John has already told us that God considers the church age as "the tribulation," is it too far a stretch that since there will be around 2000 years that He could call the church age as "maga tribulation?"

I had a very similar problem: first, God TOLD me this group was the raptured church, so I had to believe it. But I was greatly troubled by the words. I pondered this for at least a year, trying to come to grips with "great tribulation." I finally did. Those two words together don't have to mean the days Jesus spoke of - and in this case, before the 70th week begins, it does not and indeed cannot.

The "ELDER' who is a representive of the Raptured church now in heaven knows that this bunch of people is not the church Since they ARE the church, this is a false statement. He told John EXACTLY who they were: they came out (one by one) from the church age, "the tribulation" according to John, and here Jesus added mega tribulation, meaning year after year after year meaning LOTS of tribulation.

Finally, since I know by Paul's writing that the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord, and that the 70th week then starts days after the DAY starts, and that the days of GT are not until years later in the last half, I know with certainty that these are NOT 70th week martyrs.

It is good you question this: I spent years questioning it. But I bugged God about it almost constantly!

BABerean2 · Jul 7, 2020

iamlamad said:
I have never heard such a preacher.

Have you ever heard of Pastor John Hagee?

Hagee has claimed modern Orthodox Jews do not need Christ, because they are under a different covenant with God.
This is a form of Dual Covenant Theology, based on race.

.

Major1 · Jul 7, 2020

Timtofly said:
Do you feel good that you think you have it figured out?

What you are saying is that Satan can raise the dead. In other words, turning Satan into Jesus Christ. Now that Satan is your Christ, where do you place him as the 2nd antichrist?

What kind of question is that?????

All I have done is read the Scriptures and comment on what they mean. YOU do not seem to grasp the Scriptures as I do. Is that a reason to be so sarcastic?????

NO ONE said Satan can raise the dead!!!

Your profile says "BAPTIST". I know thousands of Baptist but not a single one of them believe what you have just posted!!!!!!!!!

I am having a real problem even wanting to understand what you said.

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