I'm all for fundamentalism but this is too far.

Tradidi said:

Anyone who accepts Christ accepts the Church .

Click to expand...

Anyone who accepts Christ is PART of the church.

If you are saying that anyone who rejects the Catholic church is rejecting Christ; you're wrong.

Tradidi said:

.... Anyone who accepts Christ accepts the Church He founded. Reject one and you reject the other, whether you intend to or not...

Click to expand...

Tradidi, may I ask you pay attention to the fact that Christ never founded any church, He founded a rock upon which His Church was to built. The building of HIS church was founded at Pentecost day and has never ever been limited to “The (Catolic) Church”, but to the flock of those by heart able to give a testimony like Peter (“ Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”) and thus also taking the consequenses of their testimony in their life.

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:

I believe giving can cause God to bless us, and even if the reward is in the next life, it is well worth doing if we can. However to say we under a curse if we don't tithe is like saying Jesus death on the cross for us was insufficient to cancel curses against us

Click to expand...

As a young boy I remember my dad telling other people who asked him why he tithed and asked how he could afford it....

He always answered that he couldn't afford not to... and that when he tithed the money he had... always went further.

As kids, we never wanted for anything and my father, a factory worker, built a house, on a lake and had it paid off before one of his managers managed to afford one just down the road.

So, now, with a family of my own, all grown to adulthood... I can say that I tithed, not because I had to.. .but because I wanted to and I have also been blessed for it.

Tradidi said:

I disagree.

Click to expand...

That's pretty arrogant.

Tradidi said:

They do not understand.

Click to expand...

How presumptuous of you.

Tradidi said:

Your past does not matter, what matters is the state of your soul the moment you die.

Click to expand...

However, the state of my soul will be pretty dire as I don't know how to believe or what the bible says nor understand it.... Right?

Tradidi said:

Yes, ANYONE who believes and obeys.

Click to expand...

Well.... those that know how to believe and understand what the bible says.. everyone else (non Catholic) are out of luck...Right?

Tradidi said:

Yes, those that have the Eucharist, the true Presence of Our Lord, and that eat His flesh and drink His blood worthily, as He commanded us to do.

Click to expand...

Christ said "Do this, in remembrance of me". I don't need my grandfathers physical body, my fathers physical body, my sister in laws physical body to be present in front of me... to remember them...

But... that's a whole other long and debate ridden thread....

HisCrossMyPeace said:

Tradidi, may I ask you pay attention to the fact that Christ never founded any church, He founded a rock upon which His Church was to built. The building of HIS church was founded at Pentecost day and has never ever been limited to “The (Catolic) Church”, but to the flock of those by heart able to give a testimony like Peter (“ Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”) and thus also taking the consequenses of their testimony in their life.

Click to expand...

Agreed - except that he IS the Rock.
He didn't found a rock; the rock is Jesus, and the testimony that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

HisCrossMyPeace said:

Tradidi, may I ask you pay attention to the fact that Christ never founded any church, He founded a rock upon which His Church was to built. The building of HIS church was founded at Pentecost day and has never ever been limited to “The (Catolic) Church”, but to the flock of those by heart able to give a testimony like Peter (“ Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”) and thus also taking the consequenses of their testimony in their life.

Click to expand...

Well stated...

Strong in Him said:

Anyone who accepts Christ is PART of the church.

If you are saying that anyone who rejects the Catholic church is rejecting Christ; you're wrong.

Click to expand...

Absolutely correct.

Strong in Him said:

Agreed - except that he IS the Rock.
He didn't found a rock; the rock is Jesus, and the testimony that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Click to expand...

Agree. I should rather used "declared a rock", but in mine view (maybe because I'm "thinking Norwegain language"?) a declarating is also - formally at least - a founding.

Tradidi said:

One thing puzzles me about your reply. You have already told me that you don't need the Church, but what about the Scriptures? Where do they fit into your theology? If you have a direct line of communication with God, what need do you have for the Scriptures? In fact, practically everything you just said is based on your own "experiences", and not on Scripture. Why is that?

Click to expand...

First - I never said that we don't need the church - that is you trying to put words in other people's mouth in hopes of making some incorrect point.

Saying you don't need the church is like saying you don't need your family. Never-the-less have you not read that Jesus Christ is the cornerstone that the builder rejected. If you think the Pope is the cornerstone hear on earth and that fundamentally the church is what you need then you are like those builders who have rejected the cornerstone.

So that is the point I have been making on this thread, which you are having a hard time with. Padre Pio was part of the Catholic Church, thought the Popes in his times both removed him from his position in the Catholic Church placed him back in his position. Obviously both were not hearing from the same Lord. And so it is with people in all Christian churches. Some really do get to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and others have made it about a position in the church. It's just like the Pharisees. It's like the difference between reading about Saul the Pharisee thinking he was serving God and Paul the person we think of when we read all the books he wrote for the Lord and who had finally come to know the Lord on the road.

And my friend, the first words I heard on my road of life from the Lord were, "Read Your Bible". Yet if I heard those words, the Bible was not Him. Rather like a textbook in a class with the Teacher, so is your Bible when you hear regularly from the Lord.

The Lord once told me:
"WHAT TEACHER DOESN’T PUT A BOOK IN FRONT OF HIS STUDENTS TODAY; YET NOT JUST A BOOK BUT OVERHEAD TRANSPARENCIES, VISUALS, AND OTHER MATERIAL? FOR I TELL YOU TRULY, IF THEY ARE NOT LISTENING TO ME THEY ARE NOT MY PUPIL, THEY ARE NOT MY STUDENT; I TELL YOU TRULY, THEY ARE NOT MY DISCIPLE UNLESS THEY ARE HEARING FROM ME. SO DON’T TELL THEM TO READ THE BOOK, THEM TO TAKE THE CLASS!”

So how is it the you have to ask me about the importance of the Scriptures. Are you not a pupil of His, a student of His, are you not a disciple of His?

My friend - I can read a book about Padre Pio and realize that he was a disciple and pupil of the Lord Jesus Christ - Still. I do not know Padre Pio. Perhaps I will meet him in heaven someday? Still there are a lot of people going to heaven, so who knows. So reading a book about a person, any person, does not mean you know them. Yet Padre Pio talked about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and put it as the number one thing for people to know about. That is possible because the Word of God is found in your heart and on your lips, and not on the pages of a book! Have you not read the book in the Bible that Paul wrote to the church at Rome?

(NAB) Romans 10:8 What is it he does say? "The word is near you, on your lips, and in your heart (that is, the word of faith which we preach)." For if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

My friend - if you believe so much that the word of God is found in your heart, why then are you so concern about what I think about the Scriptures? Is it not more important the I should be concerned about getting instructions from Jesus Christ, the On who told me to read by Bible? Is it still not clear to you that if Jesus Christ is indeed your Lord then you will be hearing personally from Him and every day called "Today" you will hear from Him?

If you go to something called a confession, then surely you will be thinking about Him and seeking His voice, and getting instructions from Him. Yet the same thing can be said of the grocery store, or do you not understand too?

The fundamental part in Christianity is Jesus Christ and knowing Him personally. Padre Pio I read about. Jesus Christ I not only have read about but I know Him personally. So I talk to Him and the grocery store, like I talk to Him at church. I just got done taking a walk with Him and I personally talked to Him on the walk. Specifically I asked Him what He wanted to talk about when I started the walk. He asked me what I saw, so I used my spiritual eyes and I saw clouds forming. Yet today is cloudless when seen by my physical eyes. So I told Him I saw clouds forming and commented on the lack of clouds above me in the physical sky. He started talking to me about the times and events going on in the physical world, and how hot people have become, apparently referring to all the protests. Then He told me that we need to look to the heavens, that is where our help comes from. People wouldn't be so hot if they looked at things with their spiritual eyes and ears.

Are you still not getting the point? Look to the heavens! You will find Jesus Christ the King of kings and Lord of lords - but you still keep looking to the church hear on earth and the traditions you hold sacred, and the Scriptures which can be useful but not with out the Teacher. So look to the Teacher, who is King of a Kingdom, and stop making it about they physical realm around you and you will see miracles, like Padre Pio, and all the others who really seek Jesus Christ as their Lord.

Neostarwcc said:

For those who don't agree with me have you ever heard of the Westboro Baptist Church? That's another example of Christian Fundamentalism going WAY to far.

Click to expand...

Fundamentalist, possibly.
Christian; with the hatred they have?
Jesus said "by THIS will all know that you are my disciples; if you love one another." He did not say that we should love only those who love us or are like us.

And I wouldn't join their church if they paid me.

Tradidi said:

Read Matthew 16:18-19.



Christ Himself has put all authority in the hands of the fallible men He chose and commissioned to go and "teach all nations". He then promised to "be with them until the end of time", not until an apostate monk decided to take over from them.

Does God object if you disobey His commandments? What then makes you think that the Church has no right to object when men like Luther disobey, corrupt and lead others astray?



The word "Trinity" is also nowhere found in the Bible, yet most (but not all!!) Bible believing Christians accept the teaching it stands for. Read the Early Church Fathers and you will see how Catholic the first Christians were. Alternatively, carry on following fables.



Same as above. Find the Church that Christ founded upon Peter and that received "the keys of the kingdom" and you will have found the Catholic Church. Alternatively, join any of the other churches founded by men (there's a great selection out there, if you can't find what you're looking for, you can always start your own) and you will remain outside of the Church Christ founded. There is no alternative.

Click to expand...

I am giving up on this discussion. I believe what the Bible clearly says, not Catholic doctrine.

The Catholic church resembles the Old Testament priesthood: a special class of people, different from the rest of the population ("But you [plural] are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light"); praying to idols (statues of saints) and Mary instead of God; refusing to acknowledge that sins are forgiven by Christ's sacrifice, not by priests; adhering to the (sometimes) fallible teachings of men instead of God's word; claiming Peter as the first Pope (a position not mentioned in Scripture) when Jesus called him "Satan" and he denied knowing Jesus three times; the refusal to acknowledge that women and men are equal in status; referring to priests as "Father" when God is our Father -- "Our Father in heaven"; "Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven."; and many more unscriptural practices. The most important factor is the claimed superiority of Catholics over other Christians.

All of the above is opposed to the teachings of our Lord; I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as revealed in Scripture. Period.

Neostarwcc said:

For those who don't agree with me have you ever heard of the Westboro Baptist Church? That's another example of Christian Fundamentalism going WAY to far.

They constantly harass homosexuals and the LBGTQ community saying that God hates them. Also that God pretty mucbh hates everybody except for members of their church. They believe only their church is saved and everyone else is condemned to hades. Oh yeah and you cant be a member of their church unless you're a member of their family.

Fundamentalism can and does go too far. Fundamental Protestants need to band together and help other Christians who want to live by the Bible and REALLY desire to live by it live by it. We don't need to point out a sin in someone else's life and say "you're horrible for comittig your sin but im cheating on my wife and im Protestant and you're not so I win." What was it that Christ said on this particular subject? Oh yeah "remove the plan in your eye THEN you vcan see clearly to take the speck out of your brothers eye." Otherwise you sir are a hypocrite. And there's nothing worse these days than a hypocritical fundamentalist.


The fundamentalist movement was like the reformation created to bring biblical Christianity back into the church and into our everyday lives. Not to nitpick and say "im better than you because im a Protestant. Not only am I a Protestant but I tithe twice a week and I never sin so im far better than you."

Click to expand...

I wouldn't cite the Westboro Baptist Church as an example of anything resembling true Christianity, never mind fundamentalism.

I agree with the rest of your post.

Neostarwcc said:

For those who don't agree with me have you ever heard of the Westboro Baptist Church? That's another example of Christian Fundamentalism going WAY to far.

They constantly harass homosexuals and the LBGTQ community saying that God hates them. Also that God pretty mucbh hates everybody except for members of their church. They believe only their church is saved and everyone else is condemned to hades. Oh yeah and you cant be a member of their church unless you're a member of their family.

Fundamentalism can and does go too far. Fundamental Protestants need to band together and help other Christians who want to live by the Bible and REALLY desire to live by it live by it. We don't need to point out a sin in someone else's life and say "you're horrible for comittig your sin but im cheating on my wife and im Protestant and you're not so I win." What was it that Christ said on this particular subject? Oh yeah "remove the plan in your eye THEN you vcan see clearly to take the speck out of your brothers eye." Otherwise you sir are a hypocrite. And there's nothing worse these days than a hypocritical fundamentalist.


The fundamentalist movement was like the reformation created to bring biblical Christianity back into the church and into our everyday lives. Not to nitpick and say "im better than you because im a Protestant. Not only am I a Protestant but I tithe twice a week and I never sin so im far better than you."

Click to expand...

Never heard of this "church"..

Sounds like a cult to me. Certainly not a bible based church if it can be so blatantly inclusive...

These random fringe groups are not good examples of those who have fundamentalist views.

pescador said:

I am giving up on this discussion. I believe what the Bible clearly says, not Catholic doctrine.

The Catholic church resembles the Old Testament priesthood: a special class of people, different from the rest of the population ("But you [plural] are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light"); praying to idols (statues of saints) and Mary instead of God; refusing to acknowledge that sins are forgiven by Christ's sacrifice, not by priests; adhering to the (sometimes) fallible teachings of men instead of God's word; claiming Peter as the first Pope (a position not mentioned in Scripture) when Jesus called him "Satan" and he denied knowing Jesus three times; the refusal to acknowledge that women and men are equal in status; referring to priests as "Father" when God is our Father -- "Our Father in heaven"; "Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven."; and many more unscriptural practices. The most important factor is the claimed superiority of Catholics over other Christians.

All of the above is opposed to the teachings of our Lord; I believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as revealed in Scripture. Period.

Click to expand...

Great post... well said.. to the point and true.

JacksBratt said:

As a young boy I remember my dad telling other people who asked him why he tithed and asked how he could afford it....

He always answered that he couldn't afford not to... and that when he tithed the money he had... always went further.

As kids, we never wanted for anything and my father, a factory worker, built a house, on a lake and had it paid off before one of his managers managed to afford one just down the road.

So, now, with a family of my own, all grown to adulthood... I can say that I tithed, not because I had to.. .but because I wanted to and I have also been blessed for it.

Click to expand...

amen! yes, we give from love not fear or obligation. it is a privilege to give not a duty

Tradidi said:

Does God object if you disobey His commandments? What then makes you think that the Church has no right to object when men like Luther disobey, corrupt and lead others astray?

Click to expand...

Go read Luther's 95 Thesis then tell us where he was wrong, Leo Excommunicated a critic, then kept on doing the things Luther listed, some Church that.

Tradidi said:

Same as above. Find the Church that Christ founded upon Peter and that received "the keys of the kingdom" and you will have found the Catholic Church.

Click to expand...

Your error is grammatical, that is not what Jesus was saying, but that is what the Catholic Church says and you have to believe them.

It's a Dogma of the Church, (Dogma- - supposition, assumption, hypothetical)

A_Thinker said:

Christ has not established such an authority, ... certainly not in fallible men ...

Matthew 20

25 But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them.

26 It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”

Click to expand...

Christ was talking here about our inner dispositions, that in everything we do we should try and serve others and not serve ourselves. It's the law of charity.

Christ was not doing away with authority. In fact, we see Christ respecting and even instituting authority all over Scripture. Let me know if you would like some examples. They are plenty!

Tradidi said:

Christ was talking here about our inner dispositions, that in everything we do we should try and serve others and not serve ourselves. It's the law of charity.

Christ was not doing away with authority. In fact, we see Christ respecting and even instituting authority all over Scripture. Let me know if you would like some examples. They are plenty!

Click to expand...

First, can you tell me, where "the Law of Charity" is to be found in the Bible.