I'm all for fundamentalism but this is too far.

[Tradidi]

If Protestants believe in "Sola Scriptura", then how can they ignore 2 Thessalonians 2:15? That conflicts with "Sola Scriptura", doesn't it? Where do Protestants find the "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible?

Yes, that's basically the Protestant philosophy: choose the verses you like, drop the ones you don't like.

And in Luther's case there's a third option: change the verses you don't like.

 

[pescador]

Sure, we know that this is the Protestant position, but that doesn't make it any less absurd.

No, what is absurd is believing in the traditions of men instead of the Word of God. It's right out of Exodus 32.

 

[pescador]

If Protestants believe in "Sola Scriptura", then how can they ignore 2 Thessalonians 2:15? That conflicts with "Sola Scriptura", doesn't it? Where do Protestants find the "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible?

Okay... Choose a out-of-context single verse to try to prove universal doctrine, and the wrong one to try to prove your point. BTW, that particular verse says, "So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

It's too bad that you have no understanding of Sola Scriptura. Try doing some research before posting again.

 

[pescador]

Yes, that's basically the Protestant philosophy: choose the verses you like, drop the ones you don't like.

And in Luther's case there's a third option: change the verses you don't like.

Isn't that better than paying attention to fallible men who make up doctrine as they go along?

 

[pescador]

It's nice to see you got one thing right: it was the Catholic Church that "decided what was to be in their Bible." Your other statements are either ambiguous or incorrect.



It's like saying "it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you decided to believe it". I find that rather unbelievable



To be precise, the Bible gets its contents and authority from God through His Church. Those who reject the Church, reject the One who founded Her. Those who accept the Bible but reject the Church through Whom God gave us the Bible, are like a man who would accept the US constitution but reject the supreme court and the founding fathers. Or like the man who praises the surgeon but curses the surgeon's knife. Or the man who praises the King but despises His servant, .. and then proceeds to pick his own servant.

Where did you get these slogans?? They are all at odds with Protestant thinking, and are therefore wrong.

 

[pescador]

All one has to do is look at the history of the Catholic church to see the many grievous mistakes that have been made by it throughout the centuries. "Let God be true and every human being a liar." Romans 3:4

Thank God for Martin Luther, who brought us back to the pure wisdom of God in His Word, away from the grievous behavior of the Catholic church.

 

[K2K]

It's nice to see you got one thing right: it was the Catholic Church that "decided what was to be in their Bible." Your other statements are either ambiguous or incorrect.



It's like saying "it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you decided to believe it". I find that rather unbelievable



To be precise, the Bible gets its contents and authority from God through His Church. Those who reject the Church, reject the One who founded Her. Those who accept the Bible but reject the Church through Whom God gave us the Bible, are like a man who would accept the US constitution but reject the supreme court and the founding fathers. Or like the man who praises the surgeon but curses the surgeon's knife. Or the man who praises the King but despises His servant, .. and then proceeds to pick his own servant.

Jn 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

There is a bad misconception that is not Biblical nor right, and that is that The Lord is not around as to lead His people Himself. It was a problem in the past and still is.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),

Paul had an issue with, of all places and people, the church at Rome. They tended to say things like Jesus Christ was in a far off place called heaven - thus concluding that He could not be hear from, which of course is wrong. His sheep hear His voice because He the word we preach is found on our lips and in our hearts! That is the Word of God we are preaching. Perhaps those of Rome today should read about that problems the church of Rome was having back then. Sounds like the same thing, which does not mean they were not a Christian church but perhaps the Scriptures written to Rome still apply today and God knew that would be the case so kept that book in the Bible.

The thing is, that Jesus Christ is the King!! Jesus Christ thus has the authority!! He leads us, including the church at Rome, if we are willing to seek Him. But if any church, not just the church at Rome, is busy seeking itself and thinking all authority comes from them, then they are not seeking the Lord. That doesn't mean that they don't have members of that church who are not faithfully seeking the Lord, so it is that they are still Christian churches.

Like I wrote on an earlier post, being a fundamentalist should come with an understanding the being Christian fundamentally means we follow Jesus Christ - not the Pope, not our Priest, Pastor, President, or any other person! You/we need to submit to those place in positions above us, yet that because when you listen to Him doesn't He tell you that? That is what I hear, for the most part. So if He has me go to a Catholic church, I abided by the rules in that church so long as they don't conflict with what He tells me, and why would they unless they are trying to be God instead of serve God.

The Lord once had me open a Christian bookstore for Him. As such, He asked me to make contact with the various churches in town and support them as I could. He even told me to get a map of the city, put is up on the wall and put flags on the map for every church that was in town. There were 131 churches in town.

Three of the biggest were Catholic churches. He had me bring in some Catholic items and even set up a display up front, which seemed silly to me because I was probably never going to sell them. Still, that was the specific instructions I got from the Lord. He had me specifically pay for an ad in one of the Catholic churches. I don't think I ever sold one item as a result of that ad, but the Lord told me to do it. He also had me try to go to each of them in person to let them know I would have the store. It was going to be the only English speaking Christian bookstore in town (there was a Spanish Christian bookstore). I was only able to get one of them to open the door when I knocked. I told the nun and she said they were Catholic. To which I responded that I felt they were a Christian church, to which she considered and finally said, 'well that's true'. So I just told repeated that I was opening up a Christian bookstore. Ok

The point is that John wrote to seven churches in the book of Revelation and each church had their own issues. The Greek Orthodox would strongly contend with many of the claims that the Catholic church makes. A quick view of history sees that Constantinople and Nicea were Greek cities and where much of the early church theology was made. Oh, the political fighting that occurred back them. A lot like today I would think.

So who then was listening to the Lord and who today is listening to the Lord?

I have read about Padre Pio, and loved what I read. He sure seemed like a man who truly heard from the Lord. Of course he was removed from being a Padre once by one Pope and put back in place by another Pope. So which Pope heard from God? I also read about other men who seemed to hear from the Lord, but they were not always the most recognized either - sometimes being thought highly by some men and not by others. So again I put it out their that true fundamentalist make Jesus Christ and listening to Him the fundamental think in Christainty

 

[pescador]

Jn 10:14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

There is a bad misconception that is not Biblical nor right, and that is that The Lord is not around as to lead His people Himself. It was a problem in the past and still is.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down),

Paul had an issue with, of all places and people, the church at Rome. They tended to say things like Jesus Christ was in a far off place called heaven - thus concluding that He could not be hear from, which of course is wrong. His sheep hear His voice because He the word we preach is found on our lips and in our hearts! That is the Word of God we are preaching. Perhaps those of Rome today should read about that problems the church of Rome was having back then. Sounds like the same thing, which does not mean they were not a Christian church but perhaps the Scriptures written to Rome still apply today and God knew that would be the case so kept that book in the Bible.

The thing is, that Jesus Christ is the King!! Jesus Christ thus has the authority!! He leads us, including the church at Rome, if we are willing to seek Him. But if any church, not just the church at Rome, is busy seeking itself and thinking all authority comes from them, then they are not seeking the Lord. That doesn't mean that they don't have members of that church who are not faithfully seeking the Lord, so it is that they are still Christian churches.

Like I wrote on an earlier post, being a fundamentalist should come with an understanding the being Christian fundamentally means we follow Jesus Christ - not the Pope, not our Priest, Pastor, President, or any other person! You/we need to submit to those place in positions above us, yet that because when you listen to Him doesn't He tell you that? That is what I hear, for the most part. So if He has me go to a Catholic church, I abided by the rules in that church so long as they don't conflict with what He tells me, and why would they unless they are trying to be God instead of serve God.

The Lord once had me open a Christian bookstore for Him. As such, He asked me to make contact with the various churches in town and support them as I could. He even told me to get a map of the city, put is up on the wall and put flags on the map for every church that was in town. There were 131 churches in town.

Three of the biggest were Catholic churches. He had me bring in some Catholic items and even set up a display up front, which seemed silly to me because I was probably never going to sell them. Still, that was the specific instructions I got from the Lord. He had me specifically pay for an ad in one of the Catholic churches. I don't think I ever sold one item as a result of that ad, but the Lord told me to do it. He also had me try to go to each of them in person to let them know I would have the store. It was going to be the only English speaking Christian bookstore in town (there was a Spanish Christian bookstore). I was only able to get one of them to open the door when I knocked. I told the nun and she said they were Catholic. To which I responded that I felt they were a Christian church, to which she considered and finally said, 'well that's true'. So I just told repeated that I was opening up a Christian bookstore. Ok

The point is that John wrote to seven churches in the book of Revelation and each church had their own issues. The Greek Orthodox would strongly contend with many of the claims that the Catholic church makes. A quick view of history sees that Constantinople and Nicea were Greek cities and where much of the early church theology was made. Oh, the political fighting that occurred back them. A lot like today I would think.

So who then was listening to the Lord and who today is listening to the Lord?

I have read about Padre Pio, and loved what I read. He sure seemed like a man who truly heard from the Lord. Of course he was removed from being a Padre once by one Pope and put back in place by another Pope. So which Pope heard from God? I also read about other men who seemed to hear from the Lord, but they were not always the most recognized either - sometimes being thought highly by some men and not by others. So again I put it out their that true fundamentalist make Jesus Christ and listening to Him the fundamental think in Christainty

I am going to print this out and hang it on my wall. Well said!!

 

[JacksBratt]

Yes, that's basically the Protestant philosophy: choose the verses you like, drop the ones you don't like.

And in Luther's case there's a third option: change the verses you don't like.

Most of the protestants that I know... search for the truth of each and every verse. Many times going to the original Greek or Hebrew in order to ensure that they have the correct meaning...

But.... go ahead and lump all Protestants in with the ones you know.... That's called prejudice and is rooted in stereotyping... which is wrong.

 

[Albion]

But.... go ahead and lump all Protestants in with the ones you know.... That's called prejudice and is rooted in stereotyping... which is wrong.

What's more, it is simply a myth that Protestantism encourages members to choose to believe whatever they think any verses are saying. Most Protestant denominations have very specific statements of belief, each backed up with Scripture.

Therefore, it makes little sense to believe that the membership is encouraged to go for whatever it is that they have deduced strictly on their own.

 

[pescador]

Most of the protestants that I know... search for the truth of each and every verse. Many times going to the original Greek or Hebrew in order to ensure that they have the correct meaning...

But.... go ahead and lump all Protestants in with the ones you know.... That's called prejudice and is rooted in stereotyping... which is wrong.

BRAVO!! A great post!!

 

[Tradidi]

No, what is absurd is believing in the traditions of men instead of the Word of God. It's right out of Exodus 32.

Yes, that is absurd too, which is why Catholics reject sola scriptura and sola fide, the inventions of a 16th century apostate monk and good examples of traditions of men with absolutely no basis in Scripture.

Isn't that better than paying attention to fallible men who make up doctrine as they go along?

I would rather say, "it's just as bad as ..", which is why Catholics pay no attention to the 16th Century apostate monk and the blind he's been leading off the deep end ever since he stared making up his own doctrine.

Where did you get these slogans?? They are all at odds with Protestant thinking, and are therefore wrong.

Which "slogan" are you talking about? Can you be specific?

All one has to do is look at the history of the Catholic church to see the many grievous mistakes that have been made by it throughout the centuries. "Let God be true and every human being a liar." Romans 3:4

Thank God for Martin Luther, who brought us back to the pure wisdom of God in His Word, away from the grievous behavior of the Catholic church.

All one has to do is listen to Luther's own words to see the many grievous blasphemies and fantasies that form the basis of his "theology" and that of EVERY SINGLE Protestant after him.

If you see a man breaking the law, you condemn his actions, you may even be tempted to condemn the man himself, but to condemn the law that he broke would just be absurd. This is what you do when you condemn the Catholic Church based on those who deviated from Her teaching.

Most of the protestants that I know... search for the truth of each and every verse. Many times going to the original Greek or Hebrew in order to ensure that they have the correct meaning...

But.... go ahead and lump all Protestants in with the ones you know.... That's called prejudice and is rooted in stereotyping... which is wrong.

Every single Protestant, from the first to the last, rejects the authority of the Church that Christ Himself founded to "teach all nations". That's not prejudice, that's not rooted in stereotyping, that is a fact. To prove the opposite, all you have to do is give me ONE example of a Protestant that recognises and obeys the Church that Christ founded.

 

[JacksBratt]

Every single Protestant, from the first to the last, rejects the authority of the Church that Christ Himself founded to "teach all nations". That's not prejudice, that's not rooted in stereotyping, that is a fact. To prove the opposite, all you have to do is give me ONE example of a Protestant that recognises and obeys the Church that Christ founded.

Yes... because, at the time, the RCC was doing things that were not biblical and wouldn't let the people even have the bible to read for themselves.

And, the "Church" is anyone who is in the body of Christ.. .therefore, any person who has accepted Christ as their savior..

So.. The RCC, the Pentecostals, the Christian Reform, the Baptists, the Salvation Army... All are part of the church founded by Christ.

We are the bride of Christ.. We are the body of Christ... We are the church...

Matthew 18:20 New International Version
20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

 

[Tradidi]

So again I put it out their that true fundamentalist make Jesus Christ and listening to Him the fundamental think in Christainty

Unfortunately, that is not the case. In Luke chapter 10, Christ selected 72 men and sent them on a mission, adding in verse 16 that "He that heareth you heareth me: and he that despiseth you despiseth me: and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me."

Anyone who despises the one sent by Christ, despises Christ Himself. And that includes fundamentalists. They simply refuse to accept that God has selected certain men and sent them on a mission, and that He thus speaks through His Church. Instead they demand that God speaks to them each individually and directly. In fact, they even claim that He does, and end up contradicting each other and fighting over each and every doctrine. Only the Catholic Church has unity in her doctrine, unity in time as well as unity in space.

PS: I'm pleased to hear you like Padre Pio. If you dare to, pray for his help because he was a true miracle worker and still works miracles today!

 

[Tradidi]

Yes... because, at the time, the RCC was doing things that were not biblical and wouldn't let the people even have the bible to read for themselves.

Repeating a lie doesn't make it true.

Do you know when the printing press was invented? In 1440, about 43 years before Luther was born.

Do you know how much a Bible cost before the invention of the printing press? About three years of the average wage.

Did you know why Bibles (and all other books as well) were chained down? Because any book back then was an easy target for thieves wanting to make 3 years wages in a few minutes.

Did you know who preserved, copied and handed down the Bible before the invention of the printing press? Catholic monks who often spend their life copying Bibles so others could read them.

Did you really believe Luther was the great liberator of the Bible? Think again. Of one German version alone, first printed in 1466, 16 editions had been printed before Luther's New Testament appeared in 1522.

Did you know why Luther did not get permission to make his own translation of the Bible? Because he was such a lousy scholar that the Church could not possibly allow Her Holy Book to be corrupted.

And I could go on for quite a while.. but I hope you get the point. Once you get the facts right about history, you will quickly abandon the idea that "the Church wouldn't let people even have the bible to read".

And, the "Church" is anyone who is in the body of Christ.. .therefore, any person who has accepted Christ as their savior..

Anyone who accepts Christ accepts the Church He founded. Reject one and you reject the other, whether you intend to or not.

So.. The RCC, the Pentecostals, the Christian Reform, the Baptists, the Salvation Army... All are part of the church founded by Christ.

We are the bride of Christ.. We are the body of Christ... We are the church...

No, anyone who does not submit to the authority that Christ has instituted is outside of the Church, the mystical body of Christ. How do we know? Because Christ said so.

 

[pescador]

Yes, that is absurd too, which is why Catholics reject sola scriptura and sola fide, the inventions of a 16th century apostate monk and good examples of traditions of men with absolutely no basis in Scripture.



I would rather say, "it's just as bad as ..", which is why Catholics pay no attention to the 16th Century apostate monk and the blind he's been leading off the deep end ever since he stared making up his own doctrine.



Which "slogan" are you talking about? Can you be specific?



All one has to do is listen to Luther's own words to see the many grievous blasphemies and fantasies that form the basis of his "theology" and that of EVERY SINGLE Protestant after him.

If you see a man breaking the law, you condemn his actions, you may even be tempted to condemn the man himself, but to condemn the law that he broke would just be absurd. This is what you do when you condemn the Catholic Church based on those who deviated from Her teaching.



Every single Protestant, from the first to the last, rejects the authority of the Church that Christ Himself founded to "teach all nations". That's not prejudice, that's not rooted in stereotyping, that is a fact. To prove the opposite, all you have to do is give me ONE example of a Protestant that recognises and obeys the Church that Christ founded.

Jesus did NOT found the Catholic church! It doesn't say that anywhere in Scripture. It was founded in Rome long after His death. You can claim whatever you want but if it's not in God's Word it's not valid. Period. Sola Scriptura.

 

[pescador]

Repeating a lie doesn't make it true.

Do you know when the printing press was invented? In 1440, about 43 years before Luther was born.

Do you know how much a Bible cost before the invention of the printing press? About three years of the average wage.

Did you know why Bibles (and all other books as well) were chained down? Because any book back then was an easy target for thieves wanting to make 3 years wages in a few minutes.

Did you know who preserved, copied and handed down the Bible before the invention of the printing press? Catholic monks who often spend their life copying Bibles so others could read them.

Did you really believe Luther was the great liberator of the Bible? Think again. Of one German version alone, first printed in 1466, 16 editions had been printed before Luther's New Testament appeared in 1522.

Did you know why Luther did not get permission to make his own translation of the Bible? Because he was such a lousy scholar that the Church could not possibly allow Her Holy Book to be corrupted.

And I could go on for quite a while.. but I hope you get the point. Once you get the facts right about history, you will quickly abandon the idea that "the Church wouldn't let people even have the bible to read".



Anyone who accepts Christ accepts the Church He founded. Reject one and you reject the other, whether you intend to or not.



No, anyone who does not submit to the authority that Christ has instituted is outside of the Church, the mystical body of Christ. How do we know? Because Christ said so.

There is so much wrong with this dogma that I don't know where to begin. Here are some of the obvious errors...

"Once you get the facts right about history, you will quickly abandon the idea that "the Church wouldn't let people even have the bible to read". The Catholic church has put all authority in the hands of the (fallible) clergy. Even if Catholics could finally read the Bible, if they disagreed with the official church position, they were punished (up to and including excommunication).

You say, "Anyone who accepts Christ accepts the Church He founded." Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that Christ founded the Catholic church? The word "Catholic" doesn't appear in any Bible. This statement is 110% wrong. Catholicism is just one denomination of many.

Your statement that "anyone who does not submit to the authority that Christ has instituted is outside of the Church, the mystical body of Christ. How do we know? Because Christ said so" has no scriptural basis. JESUS DID NOT FOUND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Again, the word Catholic does not appear anywhere in the Bible.

 

[JacksBratt]

Repeating a lie doesn't make it true.

Good point... why did you state it here?

Do you know when the printing press was invented? In 1440, about 43 years before Luther was born.

Great trivia... Thanks.

Do you know how much a Bible cost before the invention of the printing press? About three years of the average wage.

More great trivia.

Did you know why Bibles (and all other books as well) were chained down? Because any book back then was an easy target for thieves wanting to make 3 years wages in a few minutes.

From Wiki, even though I hate it:

In 1231, to hand over all the theological books written in Latin to the diocesan bishops. At the Second Council of Tarragona (Conventus Tarraconensis) in 1234, the Spanish bishops, according to a decree of King James I of Aragon, declared that it was forbidden to anyone, to own a translation of the Bible.
From:
Why Christians Were Denied Access to Their Bible for 1,000 Years | HuffPost
The Church actually discouraged the populace from reading the Bible on their own — a policy that intensified through the Middle Ages and later, with the addition of a prohibition forbidding translation of the Bible into native languages.

From:Bible possession once banned by the Catholic Church!
The Council of Tarragona of 1234, in its second canon, ruled that:

"No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language, and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned lest, be he a cleric or a layman, he be suspected until he is cleared of all suspicion."

Did you know who preserved, copied and handed down the Bible before the invention of the printing press? Catholic monks who often spend their life copying Bibles so others could read them.

Did you really believe Luther was the great liberator of the Bible? Think again. Of one German version alone, first printed in 1466, 16 editions had been printed before Luther's New Testament appeared in 1522.

Did you know why Luther did not get permission to make his own translation of the Bible? Because he was such a lousy scholar that the Church could not possibly allow Her Holy Book to be corrupted.

And I could go on for quite a while.. but I hope you get the point. Once you get the facts right about history, you will quickly abandon the idea that "the Church wouldn't let people even have the bible to read".

I think my posts prove otherwise.

Anyone who accepts Christ accepts the Church He founded. Reject one and you reject the other, whether you intend to or not.

Exactly... I accept that the Church Christ founded is still fully operational and consists of RCC, Anglican, Baptist, Pentecostal, Christian reform and any other affiliation that preaches Christ as the Son of God and Savior of all who believe on His name.

No, anyone who does not submit to the authority that Christ has instituted is outside of the Church, the mystical body of Christ. How do we know? Because Christ said so.

Hmmm.. Are you saying that I am not saved? Not a Christian? Not part of the body of Christ? Because I'm not following all of the things held dear to the RCC?

If so, there are a lot of unsaved people out there who are very very devote to God, Christ and His work.

 

[Tradidi]

Jesus did NOT found the Catholic church! It doesn't say that anywhere in Scripture. It was founded in Rome long after His death. You can claim whatever you want but if it's not in God's Word it's not valid. Period. Sola Scriptura.

Read Matthew 16:18-19.

The Catholic church has put all authority in the hands of the (fallible) clergy. Even if Catholics could finally read the Bible, if they disagreed with the official church position, they were punished (up to and including excommunication).

Christ Himself has put all authority in the hands of the fallible men He chose and commissioned to go and "teach all nations". He then promised to "be with them until the end of time", not until an apostate monk decided to take over from them.

Does God object if you disobey His commandments? What then makes you think that the Church has no right to object when men like Luther disobey, corrupt and lead others astray?

You say, "Anyone who accepts Christ accepts the Church He founded." Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that Christ founded the Catholic church? The word "Catholic" doesn't appear in any Bible. This statement is 110% wrong. Catholicism is just one denomination of many.

The word "Trinity" is also nowhere found in the Bible, yet most (but not all!!) Bible believing Christians accept the teaching it stands for. Read the Early Church Fathers and you will see how Catholic the first Christians were. Alternatively, carry on following fables.

Your statement that "anyone who does not submit to the authority that Christ has instituted is outside of the Church, the mystical body of Christ. How do we know? Because Christ said so" has no scriptural basis. JESUS DID NOT FOUND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Again, the word Catholic does not appear anywhere in the Bible.

Same as above. Find the Church that Christ founded upon Peter and that received "the keys of the kingdom" and you will have found the Catholic Church. Alternatively, join any of the other churches founded by men (there's a great selection out there, if you can't find what you're looking for, you can always start your own) and you will remain outside of the Church Christ founded. There is no alternative.

 

[Tradidi]

Good point... why did you state it here?

Because the person I was replying to was repeating a lie, claiming it to be true.

Exactly... I accept that the Church Christ founded is still fully operational and consists of RCC, Anglican, Baptist, Pentecostal, Christian reform and any other affiliation that preaches Christ as the Son of God and Savior of all who believe on His name.

You can accept whatever you like. What matters to me is what (and who) Christ accepts.

Hmmm.. Are you saying that I am not saved? Not a Christian? Not part of the body of Christ? Because I'm not following all of the things held dear to the RCC?

If so, there are a lot of unsaved people out there who are very very devote to God, Christ and His work.

Christ is saying that "He that heareth you heareth me: and he that despiseth you despiseth me: and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me" (Luke 10:16). Any church that fits those criteria is a church that does not lead to Christ but rather away from Him.